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Who is the 'Rock', Peter or Christ?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Hobie, Mar 13, 2020.

  1. Hobie

    Hobie Well-Known Member

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    Here is the text in question:

    Matthew 16:13-18
    13When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
    14And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
    15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
    16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
    17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
    18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

    Now take a look at what scripture has that shows us clearly who it is:

    Deuteronomy 32:3-4 Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God. He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

    Deuteronomy 32:15,18 But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation……Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.


    What does this say…?

    2 Samuel 22:32 For who is God, save the LORD? and who is a rock, save our God?


    What does David say?…

    Psalms 18:2 The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower.

    Psalms 18:31 For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God?

    Psalms 95:1 O come, let us sing unto the LORD: let us make a joyful noise to the rock of our salvation.


    and Isaiah:

    Isaiah 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.


    And we read in Matthew:

    Matthew 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

    And Luke:

    Luke 20:17 And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?

    And we read what Paul wrote:

    Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

    1 Corinthians 3:9-11 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, ye are God’s building. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

    1 Corinthians 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

    And from Peter himself:

    1 Peter 2:4-6 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

    Acts 4:8-12 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel, If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole; Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

    The Bible is clear and in complete harmony that Christ is the only rock and we are but stones which are built upon him.
     
  2. MarysSon

    MarysSon Active Member

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    Peter is the “Rock” of Matt. 16:18 – just as Abraham is the “Rock” of Isaiah 51:1-2.
    God/Christ
    is the “Rock” of all of the other verses you mentioned.

    By the way - 1 Pet. 2:5 calls ALL of us "Rocks". Verse 4 uses the SAME Greek word, "Lithos" for the "Rock" that is Christ.

    It’s not that difficult . . .
     
    #2 MarysSon, Mar 14, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2020
  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus is the main cornerstone, as Jesus was the Mountain, and peter was the stone!
     
  4. MarysSon

    MarysSon Active Member

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    In Matt. 16:18 - Peter is the "Stone" (Kepha) - period.

    Jesus didn't speak Greek to His Apostles. He spoke Aramaic. The word he used for Peter here is "Kepha", which means "Stone". It doesn't mean "small stone or "pebble" - just "STONE".

    Jesus said to him: "You are Kepha and on this Kepha I will build my church . . ."

    This is why we read in Paul's letters where he refers to Peter as "Cephas", which is a Greek transliteration of the Aramaic "Kepha".
    Even the bulk of Protestant scholarship acknowledges this . . .

    1. There is no distinction between "petros" and "petra."
    · "In Aramaic 'Peter' and Rock are the same word; in Greek (here), they are cognate terms that were used interchangeably by this period." --Craig S. Keener,The IVP Bible Background Commentary New Testament, (Downer's Grove, IL: Intervarsity Press, 1993), 90.

    · "Although it is true that petros and petra can mean 'stone' and 'rock' respectively in earlier Greek, the distinction is largely confined to poetry." --Frank E. Gaebelein, ed., The Expositor's Bible Commentary: Volume 8 (Matthew, Mark, Luke), (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1984), 368.


    · "Many insist on the distinction between the two Greek words, thou art Petros and on this petra, holding that if the rock had meant Peter, either petros or petra would have been used both times, and that petros signifies a separate stone or fragment broke off, while petra is the massive rock. But this distinction is almost entirely confined to poetry, the common prose word instead of petros being lithos; nor is the distinction uniformly observed." --John A. Broadus, Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew, (Valley Forge, PA: Judson Press, 1886), 355.

    · "I grant that in Greek Peter (Petros) and stone (petra) mean the same thing, save that the first word is Attic [from the ancient classical Greek dialect of the Attica region], the second from the common tongue." --John Calvin, Calvin's New Testament Commentaries: The Harmony of the Gospels Matthew, Mark, and Luke, vol. 2, trans. T. H. L. Parker, ed. David W. Torrance and Thomas F. Torrance, (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1972), 188.

    · "The obvious pun which has made its way into the Gk. text as well suggests a material identity between petra and Petros, the more so as it is impossible to differentiate strictly between the meanings of the two words."--Gerhard Friedrich, ed., and Geoffrey W. Bromley, trans. and ed., Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, vol. VI, (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1968), 98-99.

    2. Two different Greek words are used because you can't use a feminine noun for a man's name.

    · "The Greek makes the distinction between petros and petra simply because it is trying to preserve the pun, and in Greek the feminine petra could not very well serve as a masculine name." --Frank E. Gaebelein, ed., The Expositor's Bible Commentary: Volume 8 (Matthew, Mark, and Luke), (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1984), 368.
    ·
    · "When using both the masculine and feminine forms of the word, however, Matthew is not trying to distance Peter, Petros, from 'this rock,' petra. Rather, the evangelist changes the genders simply because Simon, a male, is given a masculine form of the feminine noun for his new name." --James B. Shelton, letter to the authors, 21 October 1994, 1, in Scott Butler, Norman Dehlgren, and Rev. Mr. David Hess, Jesus Peter and the Keys: A Scriptural Handbook on the Papacy, (Goleta, CA: Queenship, 1996), 23.

    · "The name Peter (not now first given, but prophetically bestowed by our Lord on his first interview with Simon (John 1:42), or Cephas, signifying a rock, the termination being only altered from petra to petros to suit the masculine appellation, denotes the personal position of this Apostle in the building of the Church of Christ."
    --Henry Alford, The New Testament for English Readers, vol. 1, (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker, 1983), 119.
     
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  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus is still the Cornerstone, as his body is based upon him, not upon Peter!
     
  6. MarysSon

    MarysSon Active Member

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    Nobody said He isn't.

    The question was about who is the "Rock" of Matt. 16:18 - and that is Peter.
    Abraham is the "Rock" of Isaiah 51:1-2.
     
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  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Peter was an Apostle of Jesus, period!
     
  8. MarysSon

    MarysSon Active Member

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    And WHO is saying he wasn't??
     
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    He was not the first pope, as there is no papacy!
     
  10. MarysSon

    MarysSon Active Member

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    Sure he was.

    We see this in passages like Matt. 16:18-19, Luke 22:31, John 21:15-19 and more.
    Irenaeus in the Second Century documented ALL of the Popes from his time all the way back to Peter, which was a just over 100 years.
     
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  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    there were 3 'Popes" in Acts then, peter to the Jews, Paul to Gentiles, and James to main church in Jerusalem!
     
  12. MarysSon

    MarysSon Active Member

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    Nope - just ONE.

    Peter is the ONLY one who Jesus said He would build His Church on (Matt. 16:18).
    Peter is the ONLY one that Jesus said He was praying for to strengthen his brothers and bring them back (Luke 22:31).
    Peter is the ONLY one that Jesus asked to feed His Lambs and Tend His sheep (John 21:15-19).

    James and Paul were NEVER given this Authority . . .
     
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  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Peter recognized that Paul has SAME authority among the gentiles as he did the Jews, and James ran the Jerusalem Council, not Peter!
     
  14. MarysSon

    MarysSon Active Member

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    Peter's authority was over ALL Christians - Jew or Gentile.

    James was the Bishop of Jerusalem - NOT the Pope.
    It was Peter who spoke first at the Council of Jerusalem and James agreed with him.
     
  15. Hobie

    Hobie Well-Known Member

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    No, the church is under Christ, not Peter. If Peter is the rock on which Christ was to build His church, Peter could not be overcome and the gates of hell could not prevail against him. But the fact is that he was overcome, and the gates of hell did prevail against him. Didn't he deny his Lord? This was after Christ told him that the Rock was not to be overcome. Jesus told Peter on one occasion: "Get thee behind Me, Satan: thou art an offense unto Me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men" (Matthew 16:23). Peter himself gives the answer as to who the Rock is. He says Jesus is “the Christ, the Son of the living God” (Matt. 16:16). Again, speaking of Christ, he says: "This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders" (Acts 4:10-11); so Christ, the Son of God, must be the rock on which God built His church.
     
  16. MarysSon

    MarysSon Active Member

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    WRONG.

    Jesus didn't promise that the Gates of Hell wouldn't overcome Peter's body.
    He promised that the gates of He wouldn't overcome His CHURCH.

    As for Peter's Authority - you will find that in verse 19:
    Matt. 16:19

    I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven; and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

    If you knew your Old Testament - you would understand that this is the fulfillment of the OT Type that was Eliakim, to whom God said almost the very SAME thing.

    We ALSO see Peter's Authority over the Church John 21:15-19 . . .
    When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.” He then said to him a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.” He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, “Do you love me?” and he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Feed my sheep. Amen, amen, I say to you, when you were younger, you used to dress yourself and go where you wanted; but when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go.” He said this signifying by what kind of death he would glorify God. And when he had said this, he said to him, “Follow me.”

    Christ is the Head (Col. 1:18) - Peter is His appointed earthly leader (Matt. 16:18-19, Luke 22:31, John 21:15-19).
     
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  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    We have no Pope, as there is Jesus as head of Church, and His pastors and Elders!
     
  18. MarysSon

    MarysSon Active Member

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    Soooo, explain why . . .

    - Peter is the ONLY one who Jesus said He would build His Church on (Matt. 16:18).
    - Peter is the ONLY one who Jesus told that WHATEVER he (singular) bound or loosed on earth would be bound or loosed in Heaven (Matt. 16:19).
    - Peter is the ONLY one that Jesus said He was praying for to strengthen his brothers and bring them back (Luke 22:31).
    - Peter is the ONLY one that Jesus asked to feed His Lambs and Tend His sheep (John 21:15-19).

    While you're at it - show me ANYBODY other than Christ who is mentioned MORE than Peter in the NT.
     
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  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    As a Gentile, Paul far more important to me than Peter was!
     
  20. MarysSon

    MarysSon Active Member

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    Can you show me a verse that says Paul was "more important" than Peter??
     
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