ADCs and NDEs: Their Evidential Value for Christian Apologetics

Deadworm · Jul 28, 2018

Let me begin with this disclaimer: I am an evangelical Christian for whom Christ's atoning death and resurrection are the anchor of my faith. But at their best, the verifications inherent in ADCs (=After-Death Contacts) and NDEs (near-death experiences) seem more evidentially probative even than the evidence for Jesus' resurrection and, in my experience of evangelistic witnessing, are far more effective than any Bible-based apologetics. To demonstrate why I will share some of the most mind-blowing evidential NDEs and ADCs I have encountered, including some of the most convincing which have not been published.

But first, I will provide some biblical background for ADCs:
(1) Apart from Jesus' resurrection appearances, the most obvious NT example of an ADC is the return of Moses and Elijah to be present with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration (Mark 9:2-9 and parallels).

(2) "After His resurrection, they [deceased saints] came out of the tombs and came into the holy city and appeared to many (Matthew 27:53)."
Whether their bodies were actually resurrected or their spirits simply appeared to the living in Jerusalem, these paranormal appearances qualify as ADCs.

(3) Hebrews 12:1: "Since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight and the sin that clings so closely and run with perseverance the race that is set before us."
In part this image of "the cloud of witnesses" refers back to the list of OT saints discussed in chap. 11. But in Hebrews, the word "witnesses" (Greek: martyres) always refers to eyewitnesses and the witnesses in 12:1 do not precede the living spiritual athletes, but rather surround them. So "the cloud of witnesses" are alive and are currently monitoring the progress of the spiritual athletes competing in the arena below. Hebrews 12:1 is thus an important prooftext for the affirmation in the Apostles' Creed, "I believe in the communion of saints." We don't need to embrace the Catholic practice of praying to deceased saints to recognize this point.

(4) In the Catholic OT Judas Maccabaeus has a vision of 2 deceased saints, the high priest Onias III and the prophet Jeremiah, whose encouragement and prayer support spur them on to military victory in Israel's decisive battle with the Greeks (2 Maccabees 15:6-19). True, this book is absent from the Protestant canon. But this visionary appearance of Jeremiah inspires speculation that Jesus in fact represents Jeremiah's return from the grave (Matthew 16:14).

(5) NDEs are experienced as a form of OBE. Paul considers his visit to Paradise a possible OBE (2 Corinthians 12:1-5) and Ezekiel describes his visions like ADCs:
e. g.: "Then the Spirit lifted me up (Ezekiel 3:12)."

My next planned posts will document some of the most evidentially impressive ADCs and NDEs. Please share any ADCs or NDEs that you or your acquaintances have experienced and what you think of them.

Deadworm · Jul 28, 2018

(1) NDE researchers like Dr. Raymond Moody are now writing books about shared NDEs, which are generally far more evidential than most conventional NDEs because the doctors, nurses, and family members witnessing the apparent deaths actually experience key elements of the NDEs, including the OBE and the past life review! (a) Watch this interview with Dr. Moody for a summary of this type of afterlife evidence:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...5FEC&FORM=VIRE

Elsewhere Dr. Moody describes his own shared NDE at his mother's deathbed. The shared nature of these NDEs is somewhat reminiscent of Jesus' resurrection appearances.

(1b) For a gripping personal account of a shared NDE, watch Scott Taylor's testimony:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...E67B&FORM=VIRE

Such shared NDEs refute the claim of skeptics that NDEs are delusions caused by oxygen deprivation in a dying brain.

Deadworm · Jul 29, 2018

The book, "Lighted Passage," was brought to the attention of an agnostic friend of mine by a colleague who worked with him at HUD and was a relative of the author, Dr Howell Vincent. Dr. Vincent, a Presbyterian minister, wrote this book, about his daughter Rea and her death in a car accident on her honeymoon. His description of a shared ADC involving his late first wife Nellie and other family members is quoted from p. 25:

(2) "On at least 2 occasions this radiant mother had come to Rea in visible tangible form and talked with her...I was privileged to be present at one of these heavenly visits by Mother Nellie. Together with Rea I talked with Nellie, fully recognizing her face and form and voice. I saw her place her hand on Rea's head in blessing, and I saw her give Rea a flower, a calendula, which we pressed and kept. At that time 3 other members of our family were present, including Rea's second mother, Agnes, and they all saw Nellie and talked with her, as Rea and I did. We were all wide awake and walked around the room with Nellie."
From an evidential perspective this testimony rivals the Gospel resurrection stories and, for that very reason, lends them added credibility. Rev. Vincent's testimony certainly opened my agnostist HUD executive friend's heart to the Gospel and the possibility that Jesus really did rise from the dead.

It intrigues me that Baptists here wouldn't be interested in shared NDEs in which doctors, nurses, family, and friends are not only transported from their own bodies to follow the dying patient into the Light, but often even share their past life review conducted by angels! I attribute this apathy to a combination of disinterest in effective evangelism and an utter lack of intellectual curiosity, especially when it comes to thinking outside the box.

Deadworm · Jul 31, 2018

(3a) :Leonard was a wealthy elderly businessman who was a beloved member of a church I pastored in western New York. On a few occasions I had dinner with him and his wife Helen. He was very anxious that I visit his brother, his wife, and his cousin when they had health issues. But one day it dawned on me that he seemed to have little or no grief about the premature deaths of his son Jeff, Jeff's wife Karen, and their 2 children in a small plane crash. One day Leonard asked me to visit him to discuss a possible visit to his dying cousin who lived across the road who had refused any visitation. Leonard wasn't home, but I found myself remarking to Helen at how easily Leonard seemed to adjust to the tragic deaths of his young son's family. Helen replied cryptically, "Oh, that's because Jeff visited him, but Leonard doesn't like to talk about that!" Curious, I took the risk to make the same observation to Leonard the next time I saw him. His responded with the most dramatically supernatural encounter I've ever encountered.

Leonard told me that after the funeral he was about to drive Jeff's pickup truck to town on an errand. As he approached the end of his driveway, he noticed a figure looming from the ditch by the highway. It was his late son Jeff! Jeff approached the pickup, saying, "Hi Dad, do you mind if I drive my pickup for old time's sake?" A stunned Leonard slid over and Jeff got in and drove his pickup north towards Rochester, NY on Rte. 37. Jeff assured his Dad and he and his family were together and OK and then revealed the details of his financial investments to help Leonard settle his estate. After driving a few miles, Jeff abruptly turned right on a less traveled highway and drove a couple of miles until they approached a thicket of woods. Jeff then solemnly remarked: "I'm sorry, Dad, but I'm not permitted to drive any further." Jeff then got out of the pickup, walked towards the woods, and dematerialized! A stunned Leonard then drove the pickup home.

Leonard told me that Jeff's paranormal visit did little to ease his grief because he was in shock and the whole adventure seemed too surreal to be real. But everything changed the next morning. Leonard awakened with a heavy heart and went for a walk in the woods behind his house to ease his grief. He was soon overcome by a weeping spell and sat down on a log. Then he heard a branch crack and saw a young woman approaching. It was Jeff's late wife Karen! She chided him, "Dad, didn't we tell you that we are all together and OK? So what are you doing grieving like this? You get back in the house and comfort Mom (Helen)!" It was Karen's comforting visit that dispatched most of Leonard's grief.

After sharing this amazing account, Leonard gazed at my incredulous expression with great concern and I felt ashamed because he hadn't wanted to share this experience and I had goaded him into sharing it. I apologized, adding that I was grateful that he shared his ADC and I just needed time to process what I'd heard.

I asked him if he had shared this experience with his 2 daughters and he said No. He didn't want his family to think he was crazy. I left to pastor another church a year later and eventually heard that Leonard had passed away, but that his daughter had shared his ADC at his funeral service. Apparently, my sympathetic listening had encouraged him to share his ADC with his daughters.

(3b) You will remember the bald actor, Telly Savalas, who starred in the Kojak TV series. Telly shares an ADC analogous to Leonard's in an interview:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...D861&FORM=VIRE

I suspect that the discarnate driver is trapped in Hades.

Deadworm · Jul 31, 2018

(4) Rev.Albert Baldeo was one of the most respected ministers in Kelowna, BC in Canada. He was respected enough to be given a weekly column in the city paper. One of his articles described his Dad's shared NDE and I confirmed the ensuing description of it by direct contact with Albert:

Albert was present at his Dad's death vigil in a nursing home. At 11:45 AM, his Dad sat up, looked ahead at an apparition, and exclaimed, "Hurry up, brother, hurry up!" Within a few seconds he passed away. Only later did Albert discover that his Dad's brother was simultaneously dying in another nursing home 10 miles away. That death vigil was also witnessed by family members. As death drew near, that brother suddenly sat up, gazed in the distance, and exclaimed, "Wait for me, brother, wait for me!" Seconds later, he died, and the family members present noted the time--11:45 AM! Two brothers were able to react to each other 10 physical miles apart and then their spirits were able to enter eternity simultaneously. Mind-blowing unique evidence for the reality of the soul!

Deadworm · Aug 1, 2018

(5) THE GEOGRAPHY OF PARADISE

(5) At age 5 Margaret Sauro was misdiagnosed with scarlet fever and was on the verge of death as a result of a ruptured appendix. She suddenly found herself walking hand in hand down a path with a beautiful young woman in a Roman toga. The path was lined with massive beautiful flowers "way over our heads...close together the way a colonial bouquet would be." Margaret felt an overwhelming peace and the floral fragrance "seemed to permeate my whole body." Near the path's end, she heard faint voices, saying, "But why is she bringing her here?" "I don't know. She knows better." Margaret was then enveloped in fog and returned to her hospital bed. The angelic young woman looked down, saying, "I'm sorry Margaret, but you have to go back now. It's not you time."

Decades later in her 60s, Margaret decided to paint the beautiful lady and the flowers along the path. The next day she went to see her internist about her broken rib. She told her internist about the painting and he asked if she could create a reproduction for him to frame and hang among 10 other pictures in his office. Several weeks later Maria Olivia, another patient, saw the painting among the 10 others and stood transfixed. When the internist asked her what was going on, she replied: "I walked along that path when I was 5 years old and almost died!" 2 independent descriptions of a section of Paradise devoted to 5-year-olds? If so, this is a mind-blowing confirmation of Paradise geography. (report condensed from Mally Cox-Chapman, "The Case for Heaven")

Deadworm · Sep 12, 2020

(6) When I was a Theology professor at a Catholic university, I used to play Bridge with professors from the School of Education. During one game, I received a "word of knowledge" about an absent Education Professor, Ellie. Ellie was grieving the recent loss of her husband Joe, another Education professor. I suddenly found myself announcing to the group: "Ellie has just been contacted by Joe; and she is wondering whether the vision is real. Tell her I can assure her that is!"

The other professors were stunned by my announcement. Paul, the Dean of the School of Education, was one of them. Curious, he called Ellie to report what I had declared. Ellie was shocked but grateful. She replied that she had experienced a waking apparition of Joe during which she and Joe were able to express their loving good-bye to each other and tenderly reminisce about the good times in their marriage. A skeptical Ellie was wondering if her vision could be real; so my clairvoyant reassurance was very meaningful to her.

Impressed by this confirmation, Paul later contacted me to ask what I thought of playing with a Ouija board. I warned him that demonic entities sometimes use the open surrender required for the board to work to manifest in a terrifying way. Paul grew pale because the Education department had just had a group party during which they played with a Ouija board....until they began to receive messages from Hell and from demons. So my warning proved timely.

Marooncat79 · Sep 12, 2020

Here is an unfinished work from several yrs ago. Please remember unfinished

Thanks

90 Minutes in Heaven

“A True Story of Life and Death”

By Don Piper

A Critical Review

By Bill M

The Beginning

I must admit that when I 1st heard of the book, a certain skepticism met my heart and quite honestly, I was put off that someone would be compelled to write such a book. Upon actually reading the book even more reservations remain and yet beyond the title the book does have some intrinsic value to add to the discussion of the Christian Life and especially in the area of Christian Ministry and Compassion. Before I address the strengths of the book, I want to review the intent of it and then afterwards give an overall synthesis of its value to 21st century Christianity.

Several months ago, when I was listening to a Moody broadcast, the host announced that Don Piper was joining him to talk about his new book “90 Minutes in Heaven”. I must admit that being put off by that announcementthinking that someone would address the very issue that the Apostle Paul himself seemed not to be allowed by God to address dared not write about with that I changed radio stations and began to listen to something else. Several months later (April of 2009), I gave a lady at a facility in which I work some Christian reading material for which she expressed gratitude and later read. A few weeks later, this same lady handed me Piper’s book at that time I accepted it and was determined that I would read it by weeks end

The Bakground to the Book

Several years ago, an SBC Pastor by the name of Don Piper was travelling home from a seminar when he was involved in an automobile accident while crossing a bridge in Texas. He states that he suffered severe injuries (which are indisputable), and also claims that he actually died and was in heaven for a period of 90 minutes (hence the title of the book). Among his injuries was the fact that he lost 4 inches of his femur bone and spent over a year in a a device known as a “Fixator” (a device which healed the missing bone by never allowing the bone to die, facilitating bone growth, and permitted the top and lower parts of the bone to fuse back together). Don also sustained many other injuries which actually threatened his life and the fact that he did live reveals God’s mercy to his friends, church, and family (especially his young children). The book attempts to address Mr. Piper’s conviction that he in fact died during this accident and then spent “90 Minutes in Heaven” as the title clearly reveals.

The Title

The title of the book is somewhat fixed and determinative, yet the very issue that it attempts to address is basically ignored. Piper defines death within the book as “the stopping of the heart” (p. 200). This is not the Christian view of death (people have heart attacks all of the time in which their hearts stop beating and yet their heart begins to beat again as normal). According to the Bible, a Biblical view of death is the separation of the spirit from the physical body. This is evidenced several times in the bible and even is expressed that in true death it is impossible for the body and soul to be reunited (See the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man in LUKE?????????) ie it is a “Gulf which no man can span”.

Before someone fires the shot at me as “Not believing the Bible” or “Not believing in Miracles”, let me assure you that I do indeed believe the Biblical record! Having said that, there are examples of people overcoming death in scripture ie the raising of Lazarus, the raising of NAIN, Elijah in the OT raised up the widow’s son. These exceptions are revealed to us, so that we can see the permenance of death and more importantly the awesome power of the God of the Bible ie they are not to be seen as norms which is what makes them special and unique!

Even our Lord Himself, Jesus Christ was resurrected in order to express the glory of the Father in His sacrifice on the cross and to demonstrate that He indeed had overcome the finality of death. These exceptions serve to inspire and provide hope to a people who are indeed lost in sin.

The real problem within this particular book is that it fails to clearly articulate what it sets out to reveal to the reader.

The subtitle “A True Story of Death and Life” also fails in some measure to lead us toward the stated goal. In addition to continually referring to personal experience, it is interesting that Piper would have us believe that it is a “True Story” as opposed to what? A Lie? Hopefully, I have taken Piper out of context on this issue, but he is very vague indeed and in fact reveals “Nothing New under the Sun” about the future reward for the people of God (which is a good thing and to his credit).

The Testimonial

Throughout the book, Don continually maintains that he “heard Holy awe and music” (p 28 and 31), “holy swoosh of wings although he says that he never saw any angels (p 29), continually repeats throughout that “others touched him” and that “the embraces were very real” (p. 33), “refers to colors” (p. 33), states that he “did not see anything to indicate Divine presence” (p. 33), “did not see God” (p. 33), and “saw only bright iridescence” (p. 33). He then posits the most interesting statement of all by saying that “he was on the ‘outside’ of heaven looking beyond the pearly gates” (p. 34-35). How can someone write a book saying that they spent 90 minutes in heaven and then refute the same presupposition a mere 35 pages later by saying that he was never there? He is very unclear on the issue. Hopefully, I am wrong on this issue, but he does need to clearly articulate his position on the subject.

Several questions still remain, was his heart not beating for a full 90 minutes? (would not brain damage result?) Could the onsite EMT failed to have detected his pulse before medical assistance arrived? Was the heart beat not strong enough to detect at first on the scene? Maybe the onsite medical personnel were hasty and could not feel a pulse due to their lack of training or haste? As someone once said was he truly dead? Or was he just mostly dead? There is not sufficient evidence to show that he was indeed dead, yet he states that he was only to claim that he never really went to heaven.

All of these statements make it sound like he actually was there and yet not quite there. The question still remains“Was Don Piper in Heaven?”, or “Was Don Piper outside the Pearly Gates and Almost in Heaven?” Scripture makes clear that there is no “in between status” for those who have left this world to enter eternity. Paul states that for the Christian “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord” ???????? The writer of Hebrews says that “it is appointed unto man once to die and after that the judgment” ??????? Is the Biblical record correct or not?

The question remains, is his story consistent with the Biblical record of heaven? Before I address that issue, I want to state emphatically that I have never to my knowledge ever met Don Piper nor do I have an axe to grind with him (I do not think that I even know anyone that knows Don Piper, but I could be mistaken on that issue). My only premise is to look at the work in light of scripture, comment on the book as a treatise of death, dying and the afterlife, and then try to determine the usefulness of the book within Christianity at large.

There are 2 specific instances in scripture to which we can turn for an eyewitness account of the glories and majesty of heaven. In Isaiah Chapter 6, the prophet, Isaiah is somehow taken up into heaven and is indeed overwhelmed with the majesty, awe and specifically the holiness of the Triune God. It is here that Isaiah announces “Holiness” unto the Lord 3 specific times. He does not say “Holy is the Lord”. Nor does he say “Holy, Holy is the Lord”. But, infact the prophet states “Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord of Hosts, the whole Earth is filled with His glory” (Isaiah 6:??????). Additionally, in Revelation, the Apostle John too is acutely aware of the presence of the Holy God of scripture (Rev. ?????), hence, the biblical focus of Heaven is God-ward. Piper does address this aspect of God but only in passing (p. 28), his foci remains toward the experiential, friends and emotions.

The Weird

During the car accident in which Piper is traumatically injured, he maintains that while he was incapacitated before the arrival of medical assistance that a friend (Dick) was in the car holding his hand and praying for him (assumedly, this would have been while Don was in Heaven for 90 minutes?) (p. 134-135). While also relating this experience, he also notes that when he shared this experience with others who were physically at the scene,they personally noted that “it would have been physically impossible for someone to be holding his hand due to the positioning of his hand in the vehicle (it was presumed hanging down resting on the actual floorboard of the car). While Don was relating this story, another friend of his, Anita tells Don that it would have been physically impossible for this to happen and that it was not Dick hold his hand but “I think you know who was holding your hand” (p. 134-135). This is speculative theology and at best weird. How could he know that anyone was holding his hand if her were indeed in heaven? Thankfully, he does not address the issue, but assumes that the reader knows the answer and remains silent.

Marooncat79 · Sep 12, 2020

The Best

Dons freely admits that during the recovery time (although he will never be fully healed this side of heaven) major bouts of depression became his routine friend. For this he is to be commended for his forthrightness and honesty. He never tries to sugar coat the emotional downward spiral and in fact there are a couple of times in the book that he indicates that he was also down right angry (again a credit to him). While anger and depression can be extremely sinful, we sin God’s provision and deliverance from these emotions during these times which remind us of the awesome God we serve.

It is because of his transparency that we can see God working in his life and heart bringing about a maturity in him that is both unique and inspiring. It is because of the transparency that we realize how fragile we as human beings are in this world and before God. He points to several “milestones” or events during his recovery which we may take for granted but for those who have experienced great loss can be demonstrations of God’s compassion for His people and strength in times of trouble.

The best that can be said for the book is that in spite of its lackluster theology, there is value. Because of the tragic injuries to Don, we see the Church rising up to minister to his family and meeting the very real needs in time of peril. Don continually points to many people within local congregational life which demonstrated true Christian charity to those who have experienced great loss.

One of the great opportunities that Don has seemingly taken is to “minister to others” who have in fact experienced great physical trauma due to accident. The sharing of these experiences serves to challenge the reader to become active ministers of mercy in the name of Christ toward those who are seemingly without hope. He often demonstrates empathy to those who have determined in their hearts that there is “Noone like me” and in fact shows them that they are not alone and that there is hope for the future. For his pastoral heart, he is to be lauded as a leader and in fact serves as a model for all who would proclaim themselves Ministers of the Gospel. It is in his compassion that I personally have been challenged to be more of a“minister of mercy” (which is to my shame).

Let me be quite clear, there are many who will look to the book (both believer and nonbeliever alike) and synthesize its reading into their lives and experiences which is why a critique is so important. We must readily admit to all men everywhere that there are some things about death that we are not clear about, yet there are some things including the promises of God which provide comfort and hope to those confronted with this issue. The book would certainly good devotional literature if not for the misinformation about death and dying. In fact, it would be great material for those non-Christians and certainly those weak in the faith who are experiencing great loss or depression in their lives.

The book clearly demonstrates God’s mercy, love, strength and provision for those who are stayed upon Him. Piper in fact diminished the value of the book by its title. The book is nothing or at least minimally about heaven (again a good thing). The real strength of the book is in practical Christian Living for the reader and in seeing the attributes of God revealed in times of trouble which leads us to determine that a better title for the book would have been “God’s Love and Mercy Revealed in Times of Trouble”. That is the real story of the book and the potential benefit for the Christian Reader.

Deadworm · Sep 13, 2020

Did you write all this to avoid the bother of reading and assessing the evidential verifications in the cases I posted?

Alofa Atu · Sep 13, 2020

Deadworm said: ↑

Let me begin with this disclaimer: I am an evangelical Christian for whom Christ's atoning death and resurrection are the anchor of my faith. But at their best, the verifications inherent in ADCs (=After-Death Contacts) and NDEs (near-death experiences) seem more evidentially probative even than the evidence for Jesus' resurrection and, in my experience of evangelistic witnessing, are far more effective than any Bible-based apologetics. To demonstrate why I will share some of the most mind-blowing evidential NDEs and ADCs I have encountered, including some of the most convincing which have not been published.

But first, I will provide some biblical background for ADCs:
(1) Apart from Jesus' resurrection appearances, the most obvious NT example of an ADC is the return of Moses and Elijah to be present with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration (Mark 9:2-9 and parallels).

(2) "After His resurrection, they [deceased saints] came out of the tombs and came into the holy city and appeared to many (Matthew 27:53)."
Whether their bodies were actually resurrected or their spirits simply appeared to the living in Jerusalem, these paranormal appearances qualify as ADCs.

(3) Hebrews 12:1: "Since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight and the sin that clings so closely and run with perseverance the race that is set before us."
In part this image of "the cloud of witnesses" refers back to the list of OT saints discussed in chap. 11. But in Hebrews, the word "witnesses" (Greek: martyres) always refers to eyewitnesses and the witnesses in 12:1 do not precede the living spiritual athletes, but rather surround them. So "the cloud of witnesses" are alive and are currently monitoring the progress of the spiritual athletes competing in the arena below. Hebrews 12:1 is thus an important prooftext for the affirmation in the Apostles' Creed, "I believe in the communion of saints." We don't need to embrace the Catholic practice of praying to deceased saints to recognize this point.

(4) In the Catholic OT Judas Maccabaeus has a vision of 2 deceased saints, the high priest Onias III and the prophet Jeremiah, whose encouragement and prayer support spur them on to military victory in Israel's decisive battle with the Greeks (2 Maccabees 15:6-19). True, this book is absent from the Protestant canon. But this visionary appearance of Jeremiah inspires speculation that Jesus in fact represents Jeremiah's return from the grave (Matthew 16:14).

(5) NDEs are experienced as a form of OBE. Paul considers his visit to Paradise a possible OBE (2 Corinthians 12:1-5) and Ezekiel describes his visions like ADCs:
e. g.: "Then the Spirit lifted me up (Ezekiel 3:12)."

My next planned posts will document some of the most evidentially impressive ADCs and NDEs. Please share any ADCs or NDEs that you or your acquaintances have experienced and what you think of them.

Click to expand...

My Biblical response is this video material. It's irrefutable.

Marooncat79 · Sep 13, 2020

Maybe this will be better

Hebrews 9:27

Bible - its still the standard no matter what anyone else says. Romans 3:4

SGO · Sep 13, 2020

While I think a number of forum members may have had experiences in the nature of what the OP has described,

the statement,

"But at their best, the verifications inherent in ADCs (=After-Death Contacts) and NDEs (near-death experiences) seem more evidentially probative even than the evidence for Jesus' resurrection and, in my experience of evangelistic witnessing, are far more effective than any Bible-based apologetics."

More effective and probative than,

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible,
by the word of God,
which liveth and abideth for ever." ??
1Peter1:22

And

"For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God,
it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe."
1 Corinthians 1:21

And,

"So then faith cometh by hearing,
and hearing by the word of God."
Romans 10:17

So you find common in or out of ground wisdom of the world to win the world?

Deadworm · Sep 13, 2020

Deadworm: "But at their best, the verifications inherent in ADCs (=After-Death Contacts) and NDEs (near-death experiences) seem more evidentially probative even than the evidence for Jesus' resurrection and, in my experience of evangelistic witnessing, are far more effective than any Bible-based apologetics."

SGO: "More effective and probative than, "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible,
by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." ??
1Peter1:22"

You miss the point: I'm comparing just the case for Jesus' resurrection with the logically stronger case for authentic NDEs and ADCS. Targeted pre-evangelistic evidence is essential for effective witnessing.

SGO; "So you find common in or out of ground wisdom of the world to win the world?

"I become all things to all people, so that by any means I might win some (1 Corinthians 9:22)."
Skeptics who ridicule Gospel resurrection stories as later legends need to have their minds opened to the Gospel. Since the evidentiary verifications provided by the best of ADCs and NDEs are superior to the often apparently inconsistent resurrection stories, they have greater impact of unbelievers, and just for that reason open some of their minds to the possibility of Gospel truth. For example, a few years ago I regularly posted on a New Age site. Before I got expelled from that site, 2 members became Christians. One just PMd me about his conversion. The other was a militant critic of the Bible and the Gospel message. I think my ADC-NDE cases had a major impact on his quest, so that God could bring evangelicals into their life who then invited them to church, where he got saved.

SGO · Sep 14, 2020

Well praise God that some of your posting in the other forum was used for His glory.

Now please show me the scripture that says don't use the word of God in witnessing but pre-seed with spiritual experiences and ADC + NDE visions.

Deadworm · Sep 14, 2020

SGO said: ↑

Well praise God that some of your posting in the other forum was used for His glory.

Now please show me the scripture that says don't use the word of God in witnessing but pre-seed with spiritual experiences and ADC + NDE visions.
Click to expand...

I just did! Most contemporary skeptics have no respect for the Word of God.; so sharing it just turns them off. But in my experience they are fascinated by afterlife evidence from ADCs and NDEs. So the principle of "be all things to all people" dictates that witnessing should start where they are and with what will gain a sympathetic ear. How much witnessing have you done in the street and door-to-door? I used to do a lot with YWAM (Youth with a Mission). I hope by now that you have actually read through the threads cases to see how truly compelling they are.

SGO · Sep 14, 2020

Yes very compelling and I was immersed in them.
However, the scriptural way is the foolishness way.

",,, And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom,
declaring unto you the testimony of God."
1 Corinthians 2:1
Are you equating these "experiences" with the testimony of God?

"...yet not the wisdom of this world..."
1 Corinthians 2:6

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God:
for they are foolishness unto him."
1 Corinthians 2:14

So you are going to stick with the "success method" but not the biblical method of evangelism?

Deadworm · Sep 14, 2020

SGO: "So you are going to stick with the "success method" but not the biblical method of evangelism?"

Yep, I'd rather get people saved than feel righteous for doing it your way and losing the convert!

Deadworm · Sep 15, 2020

Alofa Atu: "My Biblical response is this video material. It's irrefutable."

LOL, no, your OT necromancy texts are irrefutably irrelevant! To use you logic, Jesus is guilty of necromancy for conjuring up a very dead Moses to converse with Him on the Transfiguration mount (Luke 9:30-31); and God encouraged necromancy by causing deceased saints to interact with Jerusalem residents after the crucifixion (Matthew 27:52-53). You don't understand the difference between NDEs and ADCs and necromancy. Necromancy. By contrast, NDEs and ADCs are gifts of grace that come unsought to the needy soul. Like Paul's apparent OBE trip (2 Corinthians 12:1-8) to Paradise, NDEs often contain revelations that are removed from the memory after the return to the body.

Deadworm · Sep 15, 2020

(7) Many agnostics and atheists are gloriously saved through their NDEs. The most dramatic online example of such a conversion is atheist professor Howard Storm's NDE in which he was being taken to Hell when Jesus intervened and his life was transformed. His Youtube testimony posted below is one of the most powerful testimonies on the internet:

youtube howard storm - Bing video

In his book "My Descent into Death" he details his lengthy Q and A session with Jesus and then describes several other miracles he experienced after his NDE. He eventually becomes a missionary to poor children in Central America. I have communicated with him personally.

ADCs and NDEs: Their Evidential Value for Christian Apologetics

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