1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

For Out of Him and Through Him and To Him are All Things - Romans 11:36

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by MichaelBoryAlis, Apr 3, 2021.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. MichaelBoryAlis

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2021
    Messages:
    31
    Likes Received:
    1
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Was Paul a Universalist?
    When I look at the whole context of Romans 11:25-26, it's hard for me to think otherwise:

    25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

    26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

    27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

    28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

    29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

    30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

    31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

    32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

    33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

    34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

    35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

    36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
     
  2. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2019
    Messages:
    9,903
    Likes Received:
    1,820
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You are assuming that is the whole context, it's not. If you read the whole letter to the Romans it is obvious that Paul is anything but a universalist.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. MichaelBoryAlis

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2021
    Messages:
    31
    Likes Received:
    1
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Without addressing Romans 11:25-36 yourself, and also not providing anything substantial to contraindicate, your reciprocation is unsurprisingly unconvincing and unobvious.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  4. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    5,531
    Likes Received:
    453
    Faith:
    Baptist
    CONTRAINDICATE. STOP IT.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. MichaelBoryAlis

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2021
    Messages:
    31
    Likes Received:
    1
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I thought this is a forum to look into the Bible.
    Or, are these verses that simply don't coincide with your current doctrine.
     
  6. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    10,911
    Likes Received:
    1,458
    Faith:
    Baptist
    MBA, do you create your doctrine from one verse or does the whole of scripture guide your doctrine. Does context matter or does a sentence make a doctrine?

    Notice that not all Israel is saved in the same chapter, which means universalism is not taught.

    Romans 11:3-5,7-12,15-24 “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” But what is God’s reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, as it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.” And David says, “Let their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them; let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see, and bend their backs forever.” So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean! For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches. But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

    Notice in Romans 9 Paul tells you who the Israel of God is.

    Romans 9:4-8 They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen. But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

    Now let's look at your verse.

    Romans 11:25-27 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers:a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”; “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”

    The Israel of God is the elect, the children of the covenant of grace.
    All of the elect will be saved.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  7. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2019
    Messages:
    9,903
    Likes Received:
    1,820
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Sure I did, my point was you took it out of context.
     
  8. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    5,531
    Likes Received:
    453
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The flesh is at war with The Spirit.

    The Bible is Written and Inspired by The Spirit of God.

    The basis of my Doctrine is stated on this subject, here, including many cross-references and on several hundred others, at Aware of The Godhead

    Is, 'gosh, that's not true" the only thing you have to contribute?
     
  9. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    10,152
    Likes Received:
    441
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Just HOW can the Apostle Paul, or any other Writer of the Books in the Holy Bible, be a "Universalist"? Universalism is found mainly in the writings of the early Church heretic, Origen, which means that in the end, the entire human race, from Adam, till the last person, will be saved and hell will be empty. Some also include the devil here!

    Your problem is that you have misused this passage from Romans 11. This is from the ignorance of what you read here. Take verse 32, "For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all". It is true that the "all in unbelief" refers to the entire human race, which is made up of Jews and Gentiles. However, were you fail, is in your understanding of what Paul goes on to say, "ελεηση on all", the Greek here in the subjunctive mood, which says that it is "conditional". Not that God "will" have have mercy on all those who are in "unbelief". Look at what Paul says of the Jews in verse 23, "And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again". Do you see the condition here? Jesus Himself says that all sinners must first "repent and believe in the Gospel" (Mark 1:15), for them to be saved. These are "conditions" that the sinner must obey. Salvation is not automatic in the Bible, nor is it "Universal", as this will make the whole Gospel Message nonsense.

    Jesus says of heaven and hell, "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few." (Matthew 7:13-14). This is very clear that only a "FEW", that will make it to heaven; whereas the "MANY", will be sadly in hell.

    What "Baptist" are you?
     
  10. MichaelBoryAlis

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2021
    Messages:
    31
    Likes Received:
    1
    Faith:
    Baptist
    That is the typical understanding of Matthew 7:13-14, which is delusional - kinda like people think "perish" means eternal damnation in John 3:16 and "reap eternal life" means go to heaven when you die.
     
  11. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    10,152
    Likes Received:
    441
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Salvation after death? This is unbiblical heresy
     
  12. MichaelBoryAlis

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2021
    Messages:
    31
    Likes Received:
    1
    Faith:
    Baptist
    All you need to do is offer just one scripture to support your assertion.
    Just one.
    Even though the Bible states, "By two or three witnesses let everything be established".

    If you can't produce the goods, you're Unbiblical - in abominable proportions.
     
  13. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    10,152
    Likes Received:
    441
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Hebrews 9:27
    And just as each person is destined to die once and after that comes judgment

    After every person dies they face judgment and not a second chance to be saved. Period
     
  14. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2000
    Messages:
    15,371
    Likes Received:
    2,405
    Faith:
    Baptist
    As the OP is now banned for heresy, this thread is closed.
     
    #14 Squire Robertsson, Apr 4, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2021
    • Winner Winner x 1
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...