confused about Calvin (Page 21) Round two

Maybe they can answer:

Which come "FIRST",

Asking God to saved you

Or, God saves you so you can ask??

And why does salvation depend upon the following conditions.

Ro 10:9 That

1. if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus,
2. and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead,
3. thou shalt be saved.

Sovereign will doesn't depend upon anything but "Sovereign will".

but let's keep that "our secret".

 

MERCY, back to page 21 "AGAIN".

And I'm beginning to understand why God said his spirit wouldn't always "strive with man".

 

Thank you for the summary.

All the world will stand to give account before God, and no one will be given the choice whether to answer or not. That's what happened with Adam and Eve. They were not seeking God in order to confess their sin. They were hiding from Him and He called them to account. Do you really think that God didn't know where they were, or what they had done? When He called them into judgment they had no choice but to answer.

You really shouldn't try to use a case of God calling sinners into judgment to prove or disprove the way God's call to salvation works. They are two different kinds of calls, although neither can ultimately be rejected.

 

Of course whoever believes will be saved. But who will ever turn from their sin to God in the first place? If you believe Romans 3, no one will.

So God changes our wills, and when He does we willingly turn from our sin and we willingly believe and are saved.

Why must you give yourself the credit for your turning from your sin?

 

I have already shown you that "all" and "world" and "whole world" have many different meanings based on the context of the verse. In those posts I put at least 20 verses. Would you also like me to go through the Bible and show you that the word "call" can have multiple meanings based on context? If you want me to, I can, but I would think it would be sufficient to say that "call" in the verse "Many are called but few are chosen" must mean something different from the verse "Moreover, those whom He predestined, these He also called, and those whom He called, these He also justified, and those whom He justified, these He also glorified."

NO, No, No. You have once again quoted Calvin without REALLY quoting him. Calvin, who did commentaries on many books of the Bible, besides his 4-volume Institutes and many sermons on specific texts, would never say taht some men's rejection was due to predestination. He would say, along with the verse you just quoted, that ALL men's rejection is due to the fact that they love darkness rather than light. The only reason some choose God is their predestination. Why do you want to make MAN'S FREE WILL the ultimate cause of their eternal destiny rather than God?

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Jesus didn't need to condemn the world. They were already condemned.

Show me the quote from Calvin which says this. This is HOT what we believe. No one enters eternal life without believing. Those who aren't predestined to eternal life continue in their willing rejection of Jesus. That is what the Bible says. I'm sorry if you don't like it.

Let's look at some NT references to the word "justified" in a salvific context to see if you statement is indeed "all" the Bible teaches on the subject.

Matthew 12:37 "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."

Understand that I am not saying works saves you when I post this, but it seems there is no mention of faith in this verse, yea, in this entire passage.

Luke 18:13-14 "And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!' 14 "I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

Gee, no faith mentioned here either. Although I believe it is here. But Jesus commends the man's humble repentance.

Acts 13:39 "and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Whew! At last, justification based on faith!

8 references to "justified" in Romans refer to faith. 1 reference (8:30) references predestination. Interesting.

7 references in Galatians, all referring to faith.

Titus 3:4-7 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Justified by grace.

3 references in James, all referring to works. Although I believe that James is describing works produced by faith.

So, taking all that the NT says about justification in a salvific sense, we are justified first of all by God's grace through faith because we have been predestined and prove it by our works and word. It's a lot bigger picture that just "all the Bible says about being justified by faith." Do you think there aren't ultimate causes behind our faith? All we try to do is, rather than just making an oversimplified statment, we want to "declare the whole counsel of God" on the matter.

HUH?!? The point of this story by Christ is that by their own "will" they were hypocrites and didn't really follow God, no matter what they claimed. That's why they end up in hell.

I've never seen or read what John Calvin has to say about John 3:16. This is what I believe the whole counsel of God teaches.

What law is that? Chapter and verse please.

Don't assume that the word "might" indicates a possibility that can't happen. It's the same with the biblical definition of "hope". Our "hope" is something that is sure.

Who are you quoting when you say, "election to damnation." I might have said that, but I don't remember. But just in case you need a verse for that too:

Romans 9:18-24 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

In this passage, you have election, predestination for glory, predestination for damnation, effectual calling, and the world (Jews and Gentiles alike). THESE ARE BIBLICAL TERMS, NOT CALVINISTS CREATIONS.

 

I have not lied about what you believe... nor ignored it when you corrected me for making a false claim about what you believe.

Whether you were lying or just carelessly inaccurate, you falsely asserted that I have argued that God is the author of sin. The Lord is the author and finisher of our faith (Heb 12:2)... God is the author of godly fear (Jer 32:39-40)... Christ is the author of salvation (Heb 5:9)... but God is not the author of sin.

It is a sin in itself to say God authored sin. God allowed it or it would have never occurred. He accounted for it or else we could not claim that He has a plan or is sovereign. But man and Satan are wholly responsible for sin.

BTW, you can't even be completely honest about my words in a proud refusal to apologize. Read my words. I requested an apology... I didn't demand one. The request was made on the assumption that while you may have been lying about my position on this issue you should be given the benefit of the doubt.

Your arrogant, hateful response to my request tends to point away from your accusation being an honest mistake. </font>[/QUOTE]Calvibaptist:
WRONG! The primary cause for the earth being in the condition it is in is God.

JohnP:
GE 6:5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time.

Every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time which means all free will choices will be of the same nature, every inclination is evil all the time.

AND

Who else could have caused it? HaHa! That God is the first cause of sin is scriptural old chap. Scriptural means that it is in the bible as fact. The bible is a book of scriptures and you can get, as a free download, many translations from the web.
It was God that caused Pharaoh to sin


Timtoolman said:You conclude that we are to hate our parents, that God is the cause for sin and that we are all robots.
Johnp:
I thank you representing my views correctly. I do. A first.


Here are your “brothers” Scott, NOW what do you want me to apologize for? These are the guys you are running with and praising for their great incite. These are the guys who are Calvinist brothers. Are they not? </font>[/QUOTE]OK, Timtoolman, now I want an apology . You are misrepresenting the context of what I said, AND you left out the verse that proved my quote. I was making the point the the earth is under a curse because of HIM who subjected it in response to your (or someone elses') statement that the whole reason the earth was in the shape it was in was because of free will. My point was that the ultimate cause of the earth's curse was God and I quoted Romans 8 that says exactly that. I WAS NOT SAYING GOD IS THE AUTHOR OF SIN. We do a good enough job of bringing in sin ourself, He doesn't need to do anything for that.

If you are going to quote me, please do a little better at getting context correct. Thanks.

 

Maybe they can answer:

Which come "FIRST",

Asking God to saved you

Or, God saves you so you can ask??

And why does salvation depend upon the following conditions.

Ro 10:9 That

1. if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus,
2. and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead,
3. thou shalt be saved.

Sovereign will doesn't depend upon anything but "Sovereign will".

but let's keep that "our secret". </font>[/QUOTE]No one says you have to get saved in order to ask God to save you. We say you must be born again in order to exercise faith. BEING BORN AGAIN IS NOT EQUIVALENT TO BEING SAVED. I am tiring of discussing theology with someone who doesn't understand or use theological terms correctly. Even Arminian theologians don't equate regeneration (being born again) with salvation. I've already said this, but Arminians say regeneration comes after faith. Calvinists say regeneration produces faith. Get it right if you are going to continue to discuss theology.

At least learn when you are corrected.

 

Thank you for the summary.

All the world will stand to give account before God, and no one will be given the choice whether to answer or not. That's what happened with Adam and Eve. They were not seeking God in order to confess their sin. They were hiding from Him and He called them to account. Do you really think that God didn't know where they were, or what they had done? When He called them into judgment they had no choice but to answer.

You really shouldn't try to use a case of God calling sinners into judgment to prove or disprove the way God's call to salvation works. They are two different kinds of calls, although neither can ultimately be rejected. </font>[/QUOTE]Well lets see.....Adam and Eve still alive. In the flesh but dead spiritually. Are they not goiing to sit and judge by God in the after life? You are comparing that time with now. Sorry Adam and Eve still in the flesh, unrepented, unregenerated and responding to the word of God. That is not the objects of total unability. I think that was another off the top of the head stab at it but at least I can see where you where heaeded. That path doesn't go anywhere. It is really just assumptions and perhapses. But at least a more honest attempt at the verses.

Let me re inforce that you are talking about two different scenios. The judgement and people still in the flesh. You see they DID answer! I agree when we come before God on that day our mouths will be shut. We will say NOTHING. However this is not that judgement because of this. They did answer and not from a repentive heart as they pass the buck. He blamed the woman and she blamed the serpent.

TRUTH people. Adam and Eve, spiritually dead yet responding to the living God.

Your up JohnP.

Tim

[ February 20, 2006, 11:07 PM: Message edited by: Timtoolman ]

 

How many times are you going to use this line of reasoning after it has been debunked? It is if you don't read the follow-up posts. The story of Adam and Eve says nothing about regeneration, faith, repentance, or salvation. All it says is that God verbally said something to Adam and Adam answered. God then judged them. God then, despite their sin, showed mercy to them by allowing them to live. This is all. Stop using it as a case study for a "free will" response to God's call to salvation. It has nothing to do with that.

 

Calvibaptist

Because God judges them according to "THEIR" belief/unbelief, why does God charge them with the sin of "unbelief" and account Abraham's FAITH" in God as being "Righteousness",

Ro 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

one the one hand "FAITH is accounted to one but on the other hand "Unbelief" is charges against God's failure to "Enable" the same as "Abraham", rather than the person.

This "Kangaroo Court" is getting "Worse".

predestined to eternal life "IS NOT" found in scripture.

Predestine to be adopted through Jesus, predestine to "Conform to his image", but "NO WHERE" is predestine to condemnation found.

That won't fit into the plan of not coming to condemn, dying for sins of the whole world that the whole world "MIGHT BE SAVED".

YES, but calvin claims men will only follow the "natural man", which is "totally depraved" against God, these wasn't, the "Natural man" made an attempt.

The whole "Intent/Purpose/Mission of God/Jesus is spelled out there, but Calvin denies it.

Ro 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

By condemning some to hell, God had an "ILL WILL" toward some, and violated his own law.

Predestine to hell is an "election to damnation" by God.

Do you know that God doesn't "MESS" with the "Children of darkness", he's not a "POTTER" in their life in any way/form or fashion.

Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth,
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Does God attempt to Chastise a "vessel fit for destruction" with "HONOR" or "DISHONOR"??

Scripture is talking about the "SAVED", not the unsaved.

"predestination for damnation, effectual calling", aren't found in the KJV.

"election, predestination for adoption/conforming to his image," are all that's found.

The other "daffynitions" are "misinterpretations/application" of scripture.

 

How many times are you going to use this line of reasoning after it has been debunked? It is if you don't read the follow-up posts. The story of Adam and Eve says nothing about regeneration, faith, repentance, or salvation. All it says is that God verbally said something to Adam and Adam answered. God then judged them. God then, despite their sin, showed mercy to them by allowing them to live. This is all. Stop using it as a case study for a "free will" response to God's call to salvation. It has nothing to do with that. </font>[/QUOTE]Calvibaptist it is Bible that is what we use to discern. Now I tryig to use your terminology of spiritually dead and or total depravity in the light of scripture. It doesn't exsist with scripture. Where is the debunking show me one. Just because you do not have a answer and wish it to go away does not mean it will.

I showed you why it is not the great judgement show me where I am wrong. Otherwise admitt your theology has Biblcal hoels in it!

 

"Trinity" is not found in the KJV either, but we all believe it. "Rapture" is not found in the KJV either, but I'm pretty sure you believe that concept. Stop acting as if, just because a theological term is not found in the KJV, you won't believe it. BTW, "free will" with reference to salvation isn't found in the KJV, but you've written as your main foundational belief all over your posts.

And another thing... adoption as sons and conforming to the image of His Son IS salvation. Name one person who dies an unbeliever who is adopted as God's son and will be conformed to the image of His Son. You can't because these two phrases are what Paul uses to describe the pre-determined end of those who believe. Those who believe are those who have been "chosen in Him before the foundation of the world." (Ephesians 1:4 - another verse you can deny that I quote)

 

The other "daffynitions" are "misinterpretations/application" of scripture.

 

What in the world are you talking about??? The terminology of "spiritually dead" is found in Ephesians 2. What else does "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins" mean? Total depravity is a theological term used to describe that truth. I'm not sure where you got the idea that I believe the situation with Adam and Eve was "the great judgment" if, by that, you mean the final judgment. But I do know that I have now, twice, showed that fallacy of arguing anything regarding salvation from the story of Adam and Eve. If that was such a sure-fire argument, don't you think Paul would have used it? But he uses Abraham and David. Please at least turn there. But not Adam and Eve, because the story says NOTHING about any of the subjects any of us are talking about.

 

Re 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: ....IF.... any man hear my voice, and open the door, (choice) I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Those Who believe, yes, but not "who" will be saved.

Yes the names of the saved were written "before the foundation of the world", but "WHY" was the names written, predestination or "Foreknowledge", you do know the "DIFFERENCES", don't you???

Would God not have "PREFERRED" to write "EVERY NAME" in the book, if it had been "HIS CHOICE", since he wasn't "WILLING" for any to perish and made provisions for "ALL" to be saved???

Calvin doesn't come close to understanding the "Relationship" God wants with "ALL MEN", but "ALL MEN" doesn't want with him.

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

 

"FAITH" won't fulfill the law of "death for sin", only "death" satisfy the "LAW".

And until you are saved, you can forget about being a "New Creature".

 

Calvibaptst show me once where you have even honestly even attempted to deal with that passage. I see your new one now is "what are you talking about" yet you claim to have answered me twice. How do answer someone who you don't know what they are talking about. Your a little double toungued there ya know!


Hint, spiritual death does not mean total inability. I am saying and proving that calvinist definition is wrong.
Paul did not need to use it He knew what spirituall death meant and what it entailed.

 

I am done!

I have listed and exegeted over 100 Scripture passages for you. I have given detailed descriptions of theological arguments. I have given definitions from Greek lexicons. I have argued logically, and I am done.

If you won't listen to the Word of God, but want to keep on, then I refuse to throw my pearls before swine. I will be happy to discuss some other points on another thread, but I have had my fill of this.

I don't believe it is helping any of us (although I hope there are some that are reading that are gaining an understanding of Scripture), so I am bowing out.