Baptism and obedience

Again you fail to discern between salvation and the Christian life. Paul is not speaking of salvation here. He is speaking of discipleship. In order for one to be a disciple, a follower of Christ (not saved), he must deny himself or crucify himself. That means he puts his flesh to death on a daily basis. Paul said in 1Cor.15;31 "I die daily." Every day, I say no to my own wants and desires, and say yes to the will of God, to the leading of the Holy Spirit. It is not I, but God that works in me. I have no will of my own. It is Christ that lives in me. I have surrendered my life completely to him. I will do whatever he wants me to do. That is what the verse (Gal.2:20) means. It is not talking about salvation at all. It is speaking about discipleship, and sacrifice, something most people don't want to hear too much about.
DHK

 

Again you fail to discern between salvation and the Christian life.

You mean, again I fail to create false dichotomies.

Why would I live out a Christian life that has nothing to do with my salvation? That seems pretty pointless.

 

Look at verse 10 of 1Pet.1
10 Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

What salvation was Peter referring to? The salvation that they had obtained when they trusted Christ as their Saviour (a one time event. Read the context--always a good thing to do. Peter is writing to Christians suffering under a great persecution. Their lives were about to come to an end.
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
They were to receive (at death) the end of their faith (Christ) even the salvation of their souls (who also is Christ).

In Romans 13:11, Our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. Yes, Christ is coming soon. Be ready. It speaks of the Coming of Christ. It does not speaki of an on-going salvation.
12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
--Christ is coming soon. The night is far spent. There is not much time left. The day is at hand.

I was born into this world once. I am not still in the process of being born. {That would be painful to my mother). I was born again--once. Only one time in my history was I born into God's family. I became His child. It is not a process.

That task is called sanctification. The new birth is still a one time event. "I say unto you, You must be born again." NOT, "I say unto you, You must be born again, and again, and again, and..."

I am justified by faith (Romans 5:1), a one-time event.
The growth afterward every born again Christian ought to experience. We grow as Christians. A baby doesn't stay a baby.

I am not continually being born or becoming His child.

[QUOTEBut you are continually growing as a child of God.[/QUOTE]
That is correct, and that has nothing to do with my salvation. It happens after salvation. You have to be born into God's family, become one of his children, before you can start to grow as one of his children.

Salvation is not a process. When a person is drowning in the midst of the sea, and calls out, "Help, save me!!" He hopes for help immediately to jerk him out of the water and put him on safe ground.

That is not true. I am put on solid ground the minute I have put my trust in Christ. Rom.5:1

5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

As far as God is concerned I am righteous in his sight.

2Cor.5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

DHK

 

Wow, great thread all. Carson, last time we spoke of justification you left me hanging. I am glad to see you providing arguments for your stand this time. A few pages ago I mentioned Eph. 2:10. My point has not been addressed and I believe it is a crucial one to understanding the faith and works issue. Actually I have never seen anybody apply 2:10 the way I do but I am sure many have. Anyway, Eph. was written to CHRISTIANS. Those living for Christ were the audience. After, in 2:8+9, Paul discusses works not saving, he goes right into the fact that "we" (believers) are created for "good works". In fact we are created in Christ Jesus. Jesus creates (saves) and only then can the "good works" begin. If I create an ice cream cone it can only taste good after it is created. Once created it can be tasted and proved good. It can't be tasted beforehand. It is the same with the believer. Christ is trusted and then he creates the believer to do "good works" that God has layed out. You can't do the good works to help create yourself. The good works HAVE to come after you are created. This is so plain if looked at logically. And I would also say that if God lays out works and Christ creates us to do them, we will do them. Once saved the works will come as proof to the world that the salvation is real. That is clear Biblical teaching.

Carson or Kathryn, please address what I have said directly, before using other arguments to make your point. Thanks much.


DHK and Yeslew, Thanks for the great posts. Keep them a coming!

In Christian Love,
Brian

[ May 20, 2003, 09:06 AM: Message edited by: Briguy ]

 

Brian, yes, Ephesians was written to Christians. But, remember, Paul is writing to Christians who are being proselytized by the Judaizers.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God - not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called the uncircumcision by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands - remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near in the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who has made us both one, and has broken down the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby bringing the hostility to an end. And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near; for through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father."

Paul is taking task to explain to the Christians in Ephesus that the Gentiles were once "separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world".

Paul shows that the Gentiles need not become Israelites through the ergon nomou in order to be joined to Christ because Christ has abolished "in his flesh the law of commandments and ordinances", making the Gentiles "no longer strangers and sojourners", but "fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God".

Fundamentally, Paul is addressing those ergon (works), which pertain to the Mosaic Law or Torah (nomou), which Jews in his day thought saved.

Paul, throughout the Pauline epistles, takes great effort to demonstrate that no longer are we under Law, but now we are under Grace. The Law brings with it a curse (because it is violated one way or another), and Jesus has taken that curse upon himself on the Cross.

Brian, it is essential that you read this article by James Akin:

http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/paul_law.htm

if we are to advance in our dialogue. I feel that "Jimmy" (as James now likes to be called) explains this very well.

Also, if you're really serious about studying Paul, I would suggest a short, yet incredibly helpful text. It is entitled What Saint Paul Really Said: Was Paul of Tarsus the Real Founder of Christianity? by N.T. Wright. It's only 192 pages with generous margins. Click Here.

With all of that said, it may seem like I am saying, "Brian, you see, Paul isn't speaking about moral works, but ceremonial precepts of the Mosaic Law when he says "not because of works" in Eph 2, therefore, I'm clearing the path to show that our works of morality do save us."

I do not mean to affirm that. I repeat, our works of morality, do not save us. What saves us is the purely gratuitous grace of Jesus Christ, which is freely given to us by faith.

However, when analyzing what this grace is and what it does, Catholics are quick to recognize that the grace of Christ, received through faith, is not static. It is transformative. This means that God's life recreates us. And, in doing so, this means that when, in Christ, we do good works, it is not us. We are not doing the good works. We must assent to the grace through our own free will, yes, but ultimately, Christian morality is not accomplished by our own power. We are not sanctified through anything "we" do.

Catholics follow the Council of Trent, which defined our justification in very simple terms (yet elaborated upon this simplicity in great detail). It defined our justification as one thing:

Our sonship in Jesus Christ.

We are justified by becoming children of God.

And, since we recognize that becoming a child of God is a two-fold process of rebirth and sanctification - because we really do grow as children of God by the power of His Spirit, we recognize justification as entailing the entire life of the Christian, because we are continually being conformed to the image of the Son of God in this life.

I believe that fundamentally, there is a huge communications gap between us Brian. I see you seeing Catholics as perpetuating a Gospel that we aren't preaching.

Keep this in mind, Brian, constantly. Keep the Catholic teaching in mind. That is:

"nothing that precedes justification, whether faith or works, merits the grace of justification" (Council of Trent, Decree on Justification 8).

Also keep in mind that Catholics teach that sanctification and justification are inseparably bound up. Remember that Catholics see justification as the action attributed to the Son and sanctification as the action attributed to the Spirit. Catholics understand that we can't be sanctified without being justified and we can't be justified apart from being sanctified.

Since we grow in sonship as Christians in the Christian life, we grow in justification as we grow in sanctification and we grow in sanctification as we grow in justification. When Christ justifies us, the Spirit sanctifies us.

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man's obedience many will be made righteous" (Romans 5:19).

Our being "made righteous" is our justification, and this entails the reverse of our being made sinners. Sin wasn't merely imputed to us. We were really made sinners. Righteousness isn't merely imputed to us. We are really made righteous by way of sanctification. And, if this is so, then it is proper and right to say that when we are being sanctified, we are being justified, because we are being made righteous.

Sanctification is our being recreated as children of God - that is, being made sons in the Son - which, according to Trent, is our justification.

[ May 20, 2003, 11:42 AM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

 

no text

 

Jesus Christ is the cornerstone of the foundation. He made it that way, no man.

God Bless

P.S.
"And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb." Revelation 21:14 </font>[/QUOTE]Kathryn, your P.S. is speaking of the NEW JERUSALEM that is coming to the NEW EARTH, and not the foundation of the 1st century to today church. Therefore your P.S. is not relavent to the discussion.

The 1 Cor 3:11 passage clearly says it is Jesus, the Christ who is the foundation, and not Peter or the Apostles.

In construction, the cornerstone is usually not a fundamental load bearing foundation piece of the foundation, but mostly a symbolic marker.

 

Works do not, and indeed cannot, save!

Jesus' Atonement on the cross pays for the sins of the world. Therefore, sin is not a consideration at God's Judgment Throne.

With works dealt with, and Sins paid for, there is but one factor to be considered, and that is FAITH ALONE.

At the judgment Throne of God, God's decision is made easy because all that he must know to save or condemn one is ones "faith condition". You either have faith in God and Jesus, OR you don't. If you don't you are cast into the lake of fire. If you do you are remanded into the eternal custody of Jesus the Christ.

 

Kathryn, your P.S. is speaking of the NEW JERUSALEM that is coming to the NEW EARTH, and not the foundation of the 1st century to today church. Therefore your P.S. is not relavent to the discussion.

Yelsew, early Catholic exegesis (e.g. Augustine), has interpreted the Book of Revelation not to be speaking of an exclusively eschatologically (i.e., end times), but to be speaking of our participation in the eternal reality of heaven in the here and now through membership in the Church (i.e., the Body of Christ) and through our worship in the liturgy.

I would propose to you that the Church is essentially heavenly, and that it exists right now in its Triumphant (i.e., heavenly) state. And, that as members of the Church here on earth (i.e., the Church Militant), we share in this heavenly kingdom in the here and now, albeit imperfectly. I would also propose to you that we participate in the worship of heaven in the divine liturgy, which is what John the Seer is describing throughout his Apocalypse.

 

You expect me to rely on Augustine's interpretation and exegesis? I've had this discussion with others in the past who have not been very convincing that Augustine had the last word. You'll not succeed either.

 

That is the truth

 

Yelsew, if you read more carefully, you will see that Carson referred to "early Catholic exegesis". He offered Augustine as an example only.

I would question your ability to interpret and exegesis writings, written in a distant time and in a culture vastly different from our modern American culture, translated from other languages to English, when it is obvious that you have difficulty with a simple sentence written in your own language by a cultural contemporary.

[ May 20, 2003, 02:02 PM: Message edited by: trying2understand ]

 

Carson, and Thess., I commend you both for your well thought out and scripture including posts. Those were the kind of posts I wanted to see on this subject. Your arguments are very good and challanging. I hope to have a response by tomorrow or maybe I will throw in the towel
though probably not

Thess wrote:
""Faith must be followed by action for it to be saving faith:""

Thess. if I were to word that statement "faith will be followed by action (works) if it is saving faith" would you still agree?.

btw, I am not at all convinced that the works in eph. 2:10 are in regards to Mosaic Law. There is that word "good" that has to be dealt with. I also want to check some of your scriptures against the KJV to insure their accuracy. Either way, good job in presenting your case. I am impressed and I mean that

In Christian Love,
Brian

 

So faith is a deed I guess?

Romans 2:6-8
who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. </font>[/QUOTE]To keep it simple, "deeds" is what you did! God, the Judge, will ask, "What did you do with My Beloved Son?" To which your response will be one of two, either "I believe in him", or "I don't believe in Him". You cannot lie to God, he already knows the answer you will give! Once you depart from this natural life, it is too late to change your mind.

 

The point is with your wife you do believe in her, therefore you love her, If you didn't believe in her would you love her? If you didn't believe in her 4 decades ago, would you have married her? Your love for another is an outward manifestation of your faith in that other.

Was your love for her always rock solid, the sole motivating force in your relationship? I think not! It was and is your belief in her that caused your love, which at times may have suffered stress, to be there and to be restored when the stress passed. Don't get me wrong, Love is a very important ingredient in relationship, but faith is even greater because when faith is present all of the other emotions work the way they are supposed to. When faith is not there, no amount of emotion can fix the problem(s). It is faith that saves, whether it be marriage or spiritual life.

 

Brian stated "Thess. if I were to word that statement "faith will be followed by action (works) if it is saving faith" would you still agree?."

Thess replied, "Let me think about this but my offhand inclination is no, I would not agree because comming to faith does not gaurantee perseverence in faith. The Eternal Security believer would say "that was never saving faith" and in a sense that is true"

Yelsew says, "Coming to faith is what one does for Salvation, Works done in Faith, ensures perseverance toward salvation in faith, because faith without works is dead faith. The Eternal security believer would be wrong!