Revelation's Harlot

The jewish people remain "beloved for the sake of their fathers."

Oh. I see.

I suppose that explains why Jesus returned and, through the agency of the Roman armies of Titus, burned Jerusalem to the ground in fulfillment of this prophecy:

Lu 19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.

Anyone who does not recognize Jesus in this is not trying. This describes his Ascension to the Temple of Heaven (Heb. 9 - 10) where He went into that heavenly temple to perform YOM KIPPUR and thus finish the Old Covenant and inaugurate the New.

Lu 19:14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.

And thus, as the new kingdom began to spread, these evil Jews who would not submit to the authority of the apostles began to kill them and persecute the Church.

Lu 19:15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, which he did in AD 70 according to Matthew 24: 1-3, His returned being spoken of as happening at the same time that the Temple was destroyed and the age came to an end

having received the kingdom, and He NOW reigns as King over all creation

then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.

This is the beginning of the Great Judgement. Christ is seated as Judge and began with those who were "servants" in the Old Covenant kingdom to see how they had responded to His rulership. Those who are described as the "good servants" are those who entered the New Covenant through baptism and were faithful. The "bad servant" is the Jewish nation which persecuted the Church, burying its only talent.

And then, LOOK at what Jesus promises will happen to those who have resisted Him upon His return.

Lu 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Colin, you continue to mistake the Jews, which is an ETHNIC race, with Israel, which is the name given to the people of God. When you get this straight, there are certain passages of the Bible, especially in the OT, which will make much more sense. I used to read the OT and see in one chapter that God was going to smite them till they were no more, then in the next chapter see that God would restore them and care for them, and until I figured out that the former is the Jewish nation, and the latter Israel, it made no sense to me at all.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

 

Hi there, Ed,
The verse I quoted begins, "concerning the Gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election, they are beloved for the sake of the fathers."The "they" are the Israel of "all Israel shall be saved". Now if this "Israel" is the church, then the church is an enemy of the Gospel!!
If you read your Bible that every reference to Israel which is good belongs to the church, and every reference which is bad belongs to the Jews, then all ideas of forgivness, mercy and restoration are lost. You loose the concept of prophetic self-critisism, and split into a perfect sinless church and externalise a depraved scapegoat, the Jews.
God forgives a sinning Israel. Isaiah 54, 4-14, Jer 3:33, 31, 4-9, 33 etc. The church is likewise made up of forgiven sinners, and Israel will likewise be redeemed. "They shall look on him who they have pierced" leads to salvation not extermination. If God will not forgive Israel (the Jewish people) then neither will he forgive you. God's mercy toward Israel is part of his mercy toward all amnkind. Read through Romans 11!!

 

Brother Curtis --

WOW!! You read Karl Adam?

I'm impressed.

His book THE SPIRIT OF CATHOLICISM is considered a classic apologia for the Church by a great many people. Did you read that one by chance?

As for the statement regarding the Muslims: I honestly think that what is being said here is that the Muslims are not EXCLUDED from God's mercy, as is the rest of the world, however, this statement is not saying that they have an automatic pass because they believe in the God of Abraham.

You know, language can sometimes be a very difficult thing to decipher. For instance, the statement:

You can't put too much water in a nuclear reactor.

Ponder that for a minute.......

Hmmmmmmmm......

Is that saying that a person should be very careful to not put too much water in a nuclear reactor, that you have to measure out the amount of water very precisely, or is it saying that there is no way you could ever put too much water in a nuclear reactor, that no matter how much you add, it will take it?

See what I am saying?

Now, even as a Catholic, I am allowed to think for myself and make the following statement:

Catholic documents, for some very strange reason, have a tendency to be very wordy and imprecise in many areas. I don't know what causes this tendency, but it drives me crazy. They seem to take 50 pages to say what could be said easily in 25, and to use language that the average layman is not familiar with (let's face it, the people on most boards ARE an intellectual cut above the "massa damnata" out there).

This statement regarding the Muslims is one of those imprecise statements. WHAT exactly did the author mean here? Unless we ask him, we will not know, but it would have been nice had he said something to the effect "....nonetheless, God having included them in the plan of salvation, they must come to Him by the normal and appointed means, which is by faith in Christ alone as their sin bearer..." or something to that effect.

Kids, eh? Young'uns or teenagers (Heaven help you if it is the latter).

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

 

Right on, Australian Bible Student!

Just throwing these out here in the middle of this discussion (may or may not be of relevance):

http://www.umich.edu/~iinet/journal/vol3no2/holzner.html

http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/meast/05/06/pope.syria.03/

 

Is that mythology taught by Catholicism?

I find it hard to believe that any mainline Christian group would teach that the 2nd coming happened in 70 ad and that we are now living in the 1000 years following the 2nd coming.

There is no record of a 2nd coming of christ in 70 a.d.

IN Matt 24 the 2nd coming is said by Christ to encompass the entire earth - bringing all out to see it. "Every eye shall see Him" is the witness of John.

It is in conjuction with a world wide battle in which all human armies are slaughtered according to Rev 19.

I am not objecting to your making up your own doctrines - but I do wonder if you are trying to pass this off as Catholic dogma. Do you have any evenidence that your views are taught by Catholics?

James certainly ignores your view in James 4:4, he explicitly identifes CHristians that compromise with the world as "the biblical equivalent of spiritual adultery" and so the symbol of Rev 17 is given explicit definition in the NT by John's own contemporary.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Is that mythology taught by Catholicism?

Not mythology. Fact. Read yer Bible, especially Matthew 24, which is the description of the destruction of Jerusalem.

No, there is no "official" position I know of regarding the return of the Lord other than we do not deny that He is returning bodily at the end of time to resurrect the dead from their graves and sit in final judgement.

I find it hard to believe that any mainline Christian group would teach that the 2nd coming happened in 70 ad and that we are now living in the 1000 years following the 2nd coming.

The Preterist view is very strong among Church of Christ and Disciples of Christ assemblies. There are a number of Theonomic Reconstructionists such as Rushuas John Rushdooney, Gary North, Ken Gentry and Greg Bahnsen who are Calvinists, usually Presbyterian, and who teach this truth.

There is no record of a 2nd coming of christ in 70 a.d.

It's there. You are not looking in the right places. Try Matthew 24 again. Remember that Jesus was asked when was the destruction of the Temple, the "sign of your coming, and of the end of the age" Since Jesus answers all these questions at once, instead of dividing them into separate events, we must assume that He is teaching that they take place simultaneously.

He also promised that His return would take place before all those who heard Him in the first century died (Matt. 16:28). Unless you can find me some 2000+ year old Jews on this earth, He must have come back. Or He lied. Don't believe for a second that He did the latter.

In Matt 24 the 2nd coming is said by Christ to encompass the entire earth - bringing all out to see it. "Every eye shall see Him" is the witness of John.

Hmmmmmm.......I just went over Matthew 24 and don't find that anywhere. Perhaps you could point out the verse for me?

As for the Johanine witness, John also wrote in that same chapter that Jesus said "behold, I come quickly" 2,000 years is NOT quickly, is it?

Every eye DID see the return of the Lord in the WITNESS OF THE DESTRUCTION of Jerusalem. It is said of passersby that they wondered aloud what the Jews had done that their God had so thoroughly destroyed both them and their city.

It is in conjuction with a world wide battle in which all human armies are slaughtered according to Rev 19.

Rev. 19 is a description of the destruction of Jerusalem, in which the beast religion of Judaism, along with the false prophet of the false religion of the Jews, which had been persecuting the Church, is destroyed by the Lord.

I am not objecting to your making up your own doctrines - but I do wonder if you are trying to pass this off as Catholic dogma. Do you have any evenidence that your views are taught by Catholics?

Scott Hahn, noted Catholic apologeticist is a Preterist. There may be others. This is a view which was first taught around the middle of the 18th century and recieved very little attention at the time. Most people were postmillenial and were expecting the kingdom to come in after the world had been "Christianized" and made morally and spiritually ready for the Lord. WWI & WWII were the death knell of Postmillenialism. Meanwhile, with the setting up of the false nation of Israel by the scoundrels in our government, Premillenialism got a tremendous boost and created massive excitement.

The excitement became near hysteria in the 80's, beginning with Edgar Whisnat's stupid paper "88 Reasons why Jesus is Returning in 1988".

Whisnat was not even smart enough to be embarrassed, but when that date came and went, he reset it for the next year, claiming a calander mistake.

Then there was a series of people who took turns setting dates after that, most notably of all the Dutch Calvinist Harold Camping and his book "1994", proving once again that the general public will read just about anything if the title is captivating enough. Camping came to his theory by the use of rather bizarre numerology and typology of which he is rather fond.

As we see, that one fizzled, too. I stopped listening to him after that one. He may not have been embarrassed enough to go quietly into the sunset, but I sure wasn't going to entertain his thoughts anymore.

If you want to actually study the position, type in the word "Preterist" in your search engine and have a go at the web sites you will find. There will be plenty there to keep you busy for a while.

Who knows? Maybe you will find out that Premillenialism is just another theological hoax.

 

8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, (21) beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and (22) a thousand years like one day.
9 (23) The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but (24) is patient toward you, (25) not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. - 2 Peter 3:8-9 NASB

Let no man deceive you by any means, for the Lord cometh not, except there come a departing first, and that, that sinful man be opened, the son of perdition (utter ruin) which is an adversary, and is exalted above all that is called God, or that is worshipped: so that he shall sit as God in temple of God, and show himself as God. *Jesu: Hebrew for Jesus - 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 Yes Word (Tyndale-Modern English)

The second coming of Christ will not occur until after the departure (apostasia means departure, though many take it to mean departure from the faith and thus translate it as "falling away" the departure in this case refers to the rapture) and after the rise of the son of perdition.

As for your views on Israel:

25 For (38) I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this (39) mystery--so that you will not be (40) wise in your own estimation--that a partial (41) hardening has happened to Israel until the (42) fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
"(43) THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION,
HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
27
"(44) THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM,
(45) WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."
28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are (46) enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for (47) the sake of the fathers;
29 for the gifts and the (48) calling of God (49) are irrevocable. - Romans 11:25-28 NASB

 

Hi Ed,
no comment no my post. Should I feel hurt?
Quick recap .. You did not like the idea that "beloved for the sake of their fathers" refered to the Jewish people, but claimed it for the church. The first part of that verse however reads "they are enemies of the gospel for your sakes." Now, either the church is an enemy of the gospel for who knows sake, or the gifts and call of God are irrevokable, and Jesus will yet be reconcilled with his brothers, like Joseph in Egypt.
Enjoy life, Colin

 

Note that the Greek word for "falling away" in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is apostasia; its Greek definition is "defection, revolt, especially in religious sense, rebellion against God, apostasy."

In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, I believe Paul makes clear that the apostasy and abomination of desolation must occur before the day Jesus comes to gather us together, for Jesus' coming (parousia) to gather us together must destroy the Antichrist (verse 8). I believe Paul is referring to the same coming and gathering together as Matthew 24:29-31. I don't believe Paul taught a 3rd coming or a 2nd rapture. We Christians must go through the reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13).

 

apo-sta^sia , hê, late form for apostasis, defection, revolt, v.l. in D.H.7.1, J.Vit.10, Plu.Galb.1; esp. in religious sense, rebellion against God, apostasy, LXX Jo.22.22, 2 Ep.Th.2.3.

2. departure, disappearance, Olymp. in Mete.320.2.
3. distinguishing, c. gen., Elias in Cat.119.7.
4. distance, Archim.Aren.1.5.

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon

While apostasy has come to mean rebellion, it can mean departure. The early English translations of the Bible (ie. prior to the King James Version) translated apostasy as "departure" or "the departing". It would appear that apostasia originally meant "departure", and then later became "departure from the faith" which lead to "falling away" and "rebellion". The same applies with the Latin word "discessio" (one of the 2 definitions given in Charlton T. Lewis, Charles Short, A Latin Dictionary
is "A going away, departure, removal.", the other definition given, "(Very rarely), a separation of married persons," implies a departure since separated people who were previously married generally depart from each other) , which Jerome used in his translation. Wycliffe translated from the Latin and used "dissencioun", and Tyndale who translated from the Greek used "the departing" and so there is a case for the original meaning of the Greek word "apostasia" being "departure" rather than "rebellion".

If we meet Christ in the clouds, He has not come to Earth any more than He did when He appeared to Stephen or to Paul, otherwise, Christ would have come at least 3 times already. It would be rather strange for us to be caught up to meet Christ in the clouds only to come right back down with Him which would be the case if the rapture and second coming were the same event.

 

For a truly eye-opening, in-depth look at this topic, click on the following link:

http://philologos.org/guide/books/hunt.dave.2.htm

In Revelations 17:9 it says: And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

The Catholic Church is the only one I've ever heard of that refers to itself as a "she". The city of rome is the only one I can find in doing research, that sits atop 7 mountains. Vatican City is in Rome. If it looks like a rose, smells like a rose, feels like a rose...

"Sola Scriptura" "Sola Christus"
"It IS Finished!" John 19:30

 

Question: Does Rome cover the entire length of the seven hills? Can a part of the city of Rome be found on all seven of the hills?

Yes, this is relevant.

God bless,

Grant

 

Matt 24
14 ""This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Not until the Gospel has gone into the entire world - will Christ come - and this was spoken by Christ pre-cross and then published by Matt post-cross - as a "future event". The Gospel going into all the world - an event we "Still" wait for.

Matt 24
21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
22 ""Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.


The persecution of Christians by the Pagan Roman empire - and then persecution of Christians by the Holy Roman Empire - "The Dark Ages" - represents centuries of killing Christians - unprecidented in extent and length of time - in all of history.

Matt 24:
23 "" Then if anyone says to you, "Behold, here is the Christ,' or " There He is,' do not believe him.
24 ""For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
25 ""Behold, I have told you in advance.
26 ""So if they say to you, "Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, "Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them.
27 "" For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.


The visibility of cloud-to-could lightning - from one end of heaven to the other - is the "comparison" made with the 2nd coming.

The coming is in the clouds - just as the lightning and just as the "signs".

Matt 24:
29 ""But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.


Christ comes "IN the clouds of the Sky" with "GREAT power and Great Glory". And is seen vividly just as lightning is seen vividly.

World wide destruction of the flood is as the world wide event of the Son of Man -

2Peter 3 makes the same point - that just as the earth was destroyed by water - so it is to be destroyed by Fire at "the coming" of Christ - "His return" as Peter calls it.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Note that apostasia (2 Thessalonians 2:3) isn't used in the Bible or in other ancient Greek literature to refer to people departing from a physical location, but is used in the ancient Greek translation of the Old Testament (for example, Joshua 22:22, 2 Chronicles 29:19, Jeremiah 2:19) to refer to people departing from their religion, and is used only one other time in the New Testament: Acts 21:21, where it's translated "forsake." Look at its Greek definition and you will see why: "defection, revolt, especially in religious sense, rebellion against God, apostasy."

Paul was trying to clear things up for the Thessalonians, not confuse them by using a word in a way that it had never been used before and would never be used again.

Note that even Darby himself acknowledged that apostasia means apostasy: "Let not any one deceive you in any manner, because [it will not be] unless the apostasy have first come, and the man of sin have been revealed, the son of perdition" (2 Thessalonians 2:3, Darby Translation).

Note the definition of the Latin (Vulgate) word discessio: "In the church, a separation, schism (eccl. Lat.), Vulg. Act. 21, 21; id. 2 Thes. 2, 3."

I believe that we will be caught up to meet Jesus coming "in the clouds" on his way down to set his feet on the earth.

"The Son of man coming in the clouds...
with a great sound of a trumpet,
and they shall gather together his elect"
(Matthew 24:30-31).

"We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord...
with the trump of God...
shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord"
(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

I don't believe that the scriptures teach two different comings "in the clouds,"
or two different "last" trumps (1 Corinthians 15:52),
or two different raptures.

Because 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 shows Jesus "coming," but doesn't show him landing on the earth, some believe it refers to a part-way coming of Jesus whereby he comes down only as far as the clouds and then returns to heaven. But note that Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19 don't show Jesus landing on the earth either. Do some then believe that Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19 are also not the 2nd coming?

Note that 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 doesn't show Jesus returning to heaven. Acts 1:11 says Jesus will "come" just as he left: he won't come only as far as the clouds and then return to heaven again, just as he didn't leave only as far as the clouds and then return to earth again. He went from the Mount of Olives to the clouds to heaven, he will come from heaven to the clouds to the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4). There's no 3rd coming of Jesus.

Note that Stephen had a vision of Jesus at the right hand of the Father in heaven (Acts 7:56). I don't believe Paul's "heavenly vision" of Jesus (Acts 26:19) was a physical coming of Jesus to earth.

Our being caught up into the clouds to meet Jesus' at his coming and then returning back to the earth with him will be similar to the people coming out of Jerusalem to meet Jesus and then returning back to the city with him (John 12:12-13) or the Roman Christians coming out of Rome to meet Paul and returning back to the city with him (Acts 28:15-16).

I believe that just as planes go up, then back down, for good purpose, so the rapture will serve a good purpose. We will have been gathered from all around the globe into one place in the clouds above Jerusalem so that we all might descend together with the Lord to Jerusalem. As a brother said, "God doesn't want to wait for his people to WALK to Jerusalem from all over the world."

 

Several translations leave apostasia as apostasy. Apostasia in Greek meant departure so translating the word apostasy does not change the meaning of the word. The earliest English translations recognized apostasia to mean departure, however that definition did not fit the view of many reformers (such as Beza) that the pope of their day was the Antichrist since the departure had not yet occured.

 

Read Dave Hunt?

Puuuuuuuhlease.....I'd rather have my teeth extracted without anesthesia.

He is hardly the scholar he purports to be.

Brother Ed

 

While I do agree with the post-trib rapture view -
I also find your lack of emphasis on the John 14 promise to be significant just as the focus on that promise is significant in the view of pre and mid trib statements.

1Thess 4 really only makes sense when coupled with John 14 "I GO to prepare a place for you" and the point is to "recieve US" to Himself. We see this in 1thess 4- we are caught up to GO with him to heaven - to His Fathers house - to the "place" where He has been all this time preparing "a place for us".

And the same event is being described in Matt 24, in Rev 19, in 1Thess 4, in John 14, in 2Peter 3.

Notice that the Bible does not use the term "2nd coming" but only the "return" or the "appearing" or the "coming" of Christ. It is only one event. He appears in the clouds as scripture states - we are caught up in the air and we go to that place He has prepared. The earth and its works are burned up (2Peter 3) post trib at the same event.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Catholic Convert:
The A.D. 70 heresy that is promulgated by Max King does not represent the teachings of the Bible nor the church of Christ. Mr. King's Theology had been refuted in many sound gospel periodicals such as The Gospel Journal, Therefore Stand and The World Evangelist. This is a little late on the thread, but I wanted to set the record straight.