Evolutionary Propoganda - A True Story

I agree, I can't believe, from scripture, that all that exists is only 6-10,000 years old.

In reading Gen 1, I see the "poetic" verse. It is one that simply shows that God spoke, then something happened. It is repeated over and over, thus a poetic song of our creation, not a detailed scienfic explanation of it.

Reading as poetic verse, the decision to create something and it's design can occur in one "morning and evening", but the actual creation can take thousands of years.

Here is an example of what I'm talking about. PS This is true for my own life.

"In the first second of my life, I fell in love with the woman of my dreams, and life came alive for the rest of my days.

In the next second of my life, we exchanged rings as we married that glorious day, and made a lifetime of happiness together.

In the third second of my life, my child was born to me, and I set about loving him for eternity."

To complicate this to further show the poetry of it, I adopted my son, but he was still born to me after I married, even though I knew him before I was married. I fell in love with him as my son after I was married. So both situations are correct even though the the contradict each other.


We could argue all day that I only lived for 3 seconds or that all those points could have never been done in only 3 seconds. But they were, but the last parts of each verse, happened over many years!

 

Hi Post-it,
Thanks for your reply and feedback.

All,
I'd like to present this as an angle on the discussion. I accept both sides in this debate see it differently by I'd like to present it nonetheless as an example of how the literal 6 day interpretation may be mistaken.

Word Studies in Genesis One by Hugh Ross, Ph. D.

Genesis One
1. In the beginning God1 created2 the heavens5 and the earth20. 2. Now the earth2O was formless and empty7, darkness was over the surface of the deep8, and the Spirit9 of God1 was hovering21 over the waters. 3. And God1 said, "Let there3 be light," and there was light. 4. God1 saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5. God1 called the light "day"19 and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening22, and there was morning23... the first day19. 6. And God1 said, "Let there3 be an expanse10 between the waters to separate water from water." 7. So God1 made4 the expanse10 and separated the water under the expanse10 from the water above it. And it was so. 8. God1 called the expanse10 "sky5." And there was evening22, and there was morning23... the second day19. 9. And God1 said, "Let3 the water under the sky5 be3 gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear24." And it was so. 10. God1 called the dry ground "land" and the gathered waters he called the "seas." And God1 saw that it was good. 11. Then God1 said, "Let the land produce25 vegetation26; seed11-bearing plants29 and trees12 on the land that bear fruit13 with seed11 in it, according to their various kinds27." And it was so. 12. The land produced28 vegetation26: plants29 bearing seed11 according to their kinds27 and trees12 bearing fruit13 with seed11 in it according to their kinds27. And God1 saw that it was good. 13. And there was evening22, and there was morning23... the third day19. 14. And God1 said, "Let there3 be lights30 in the expanse10 of the sky5 to separate the day19 from the night, and let them serve as signs31 to mark seasons and days19 and years. 15. And let there3 be lights30 in the expanse10 of the sky5 to give light on the earth20." And it was so. 16. God1 made4 two great lights30... the greater light30 to govern the day 19 and the lesser light30 to govern the night. He also made4 the stars. 17. God1 set14 them in the expanse10 of the sky5 to give light on the earth20, 18. to govern the day19 and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God1 saw that it was good. 19. And there was evening22, and there was morning23... the fourth day19. 20. And God1 said, "Let the water teem with living creatures15, and let birds fly above the earth20 across the expanse10 of the sky5." 21. So God1 created2 the great creatures16 of the sea and every livingl7 and moving thing17 with which the water teems, according to their kinds27, and every winged bird according to its kind27. And God1 saw that it was good. 22. God1 blessed them and said, "Be3 fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth20." 23. And there was the evening22, and there was morning23... the fifth day19. 24. And God1 said, "Let the land produce28 living creatures17 according to their kinds27: livestock32, creatures33 that move along the ground, and wild aniaals34, each according to its kind27." And it was so. 25. God1 made4 the wild animals34 according to their kinds27, the livestock32 according to their kinds27, and all the creatures33 that move along the ground according to their kinds27. And God1 saw that it was good. 26. Then God1 said, "Let us make4 man18 in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock32, over all the earth, and over all the creatures33 that move along the ground." 27. So God1 created2 man18 in his own image, in the image of God1 he created2 him; male and female he created them. 28. God1 blessed them and said to them, "Be3 fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth20 and subdue35 it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature34 that moves on the ground." 29. Then God1 said, "I give you every seed11-bearing plant29 on the face of the whole earth20 and every tree that has fruit with seed11 in it. They will be yours for food. 30. And to all the beasts34 of the earth20 and all the birds of the air and all the creatures33 that move on the ground... everything that has the breath of life in it ...I give every green29 plant for food." And it was so. 31. God1 saw all that He had made4, and it was very good. And there was evening22, and there was morning23... the sixth day19. Thus the heavens5 and the earth20 were completed in all their vast array.



Definitions

1. ELOHIYM (plural of Eloahh): the deity; the supreme Being; the true God

-a compound word composed of El (the strong one), and Alah (to bind oneself by an oath); hence, Elohim = the mighty and faithful one

-a uni-plural noun; thus, Elohiym latently implies the Trinity

-the only name used for God in Genesis One; this name is used about 2,500 times in the Old Testament

2. BARA: bring forth something that is radically new; produce that which is new, extraordinary, and/or epochal; produce through supernatural activity

3. HAYAH: become; cause to appear or arise; cause to be made or done; come into existence; come to pass; make into something

4. ASAH: produce; manufacture; fabricate

5. SHAMAYIM (p1.), shameh (sing.): visible dome of the sky above and in which the clouds move; the realm in which the celestial bodies move; the spiritual realm in which God and the angels dwell and operate

-with respect to the above definitions, the Hebrews referred to the three heavens (cf. 2 Cor. 12:2); whenever shamayim is used with the erets(earth), as in 1:1, the combination refers to the entire physical universe

6. TOHUW: desolated; worthless; wasteness; useless; incapable of being utilized

7. BOHUW: empty; void; devoid of existence

8. TEHOM: a great mass of water; the oceans and the seas

9. RUWACH: spirit; breath; wind.

- in conjunction with Elohiym refers to the Holy Spirit

10. RAQIYA: (apparently) visible dome of the sky; (technically, the atmosphere immediately above the surface of the earth)

11. ZERA: embryos of plants, trees, grasses, etc., i.e., the embryos of any plant species

12. ETS: any large plant containing woody fiber

13. PERIY: fod and/or embryos produced by any living thing

14. NATHAN: set; put; place; appoint; bring forth; apply; ascribe; set forth; send out; show; trust; bestow; cause to appear; charge; commit; deliver

15. SHERETS: swarm of small or minute animals

16. TANNIYM: great or large sea animal; monster

17. NEPHESH: vital animals, i.e., animals that clearly manifest the soulish attributes of mind, will, and emotion

18. ADAM: human being; the human race; i.e., animals that clearly manifest spirit attributes. NOTE: there is no evidence for a spirit dimension for the pre-Adamic hominids

19. YOWM: sunrise to sunset; sunset to sunset; a space of time (defined by an associated term); an age; time or period (without any reference to solar days)

20. ERETS: the planet Earth; a land, a country, or a continent; lands, countries, kingdoms or regions

21. RACHAPH: to brood over, cherishing and vivifying; to be tenderly affected; to be moved

22. EREB: the beginning of darkness; dusk, twilight, or nightfall; closing, ending or completion

23. BOCER: the breaking forth of light; dawn, daybreak or morning; dawning, beginning, or origin

24. RAAH: be seen; appear; show forth, cause one to see; to be perceived or beheld; to be considered

25. DASHA: to bring forth herbage; to sprout; to bring forth

26. DESHE: new vegetation; young plants

27. MIYN: species; life4orm

28. YATSA: germinate, bring forth; produce; spring forth; promulgate; to cause to come forth; issue out; proceed

29. ESEB: green plant(s)

30. MAOWR: a luminous body; brightness; light

31. OWTH: signal; sign, measuring mark; token, omen; evidence

32. BEHEMOWTH: large land quadrupeds

33. REMES: rapidly moving vertebrates; rodents and reptiles

34. CHAY: wild mammals; a multitude or mob; that which is lively or fresh

35. KABASH: subject; subdue; subjugate

Sorry if its a bit long winded people.

God bless
Doug_mmm.

 

Says who?

 

Says who? </font>[/QUOTE]I'll just give you my objection.

The light we receive from the universe gives us a history of what happened to these various objects. To say that the light was created in transit is to say that the histories never happened, that what you see is not what you get, that it is all an illusion. In some cases, stars destroyed in supernova explosions for example, you would be seeing a fake history of an object that never even existed. I just have a hard time buying that the earth is real but that the rest of the universe is an elaborate forgery. If you can accept that, then there is no point in continuing.

 

How about when Jesus turned water into wine?

Wine gives a history of all sorts of things.
Soil preparation, Planting, cultivating, sunshine, rainfall, harvesting, aging, etc...

None of these historical things actually happened for the wine Jesus created instantly.

Was the wine real or a forgery?

HankD

 

You are missing the whole point. It doesn't matter if Jesus created the best tasting finest wine ever. It doesn't matter if the chemical properties of the wine were consistent with a miracle. In fact, there is no relevant testable or observable phenomena associated with any of Jesus' miracles, that is why they are miracles. The healings, ressurections, etc. etc. of Jesus' ministry were intended to demonstrate His power, His love, and ultimately His diety, they were not trickery of any kind as you would have the apparent age of the universe be.

 

That is your perogative to call apparent age trickery if you will. I do not.

HankD

 

That is your perogative to call apparent age trickery if you will. I do not.

HankD </font>[/QUOTE]Anything else is just semantics my friend.

 

So say you.

 

You are comparing apples and oranges.

Yes the existance of wine implies certain things, but we are talking about a miracle here. Of course the wine was real. It is also not germane to the discussion at hand.

You can go out and look at the stars and see things actually happening. If I were talking about an appearance of age, we might could have a discussion based on your comment, though I still think that it is different. In this case, you can actually watch the processes, you can see things change with time. If the light was created in transit, these events never actually happened. And I cannot believe that the universe is some grand forgery, that all these things we can look up and see happening never actually happened. Is that what you believe?

 

UTEOTW,

Regards the time created in transit reply you gave it was excellent.

HankD,

Additionally the problem of light in transit is that the light from both stars and galaxies gives a reasonably good indication of their distance.

The spectral lines of the stars and galaxies witnessed reflect the broadening seen in direct proportion to their distance. So if the Universe was created &lt; 10k years ago we would only see the broadening of the light spectra reflecting that. Problem is we do see spectra light broadening reflecting much greater light travel times. Interstellar gas and dust causes the light to redden on its journey and is in direct proportion to distance travelled. This is what we see. So God has given us evidence that the Universe is not &lt; 10k years old.

The other problem in terms of credibility of the light in transit theory is that God must have individually set the light broadening for each of the billions of stars in both our own and billions of other galaxies. The obvious question is why would God do so , though not denying he could? Why would he trick us like that ?

Another problem is the period luminosity relationship witness in a particular type of star called a cepheid variable. This is very constant behaviour and serves as an additional celestial yardstick. This method helped confirm the distance of the Andromeda Galaxy at 2.2 million light years. If the light was fixed in transit we wouldn't see any changes in stars in these galaxies, not least the novae and supernovae we witness as UTEOTW mentioned.

The light in transit theory, well that dog don't hunt.

This is a big problem for Young Earth Creationists.

 

Doug

Allow me to make a minor addition before someone picks up on it and runs with it. Light that travels through dust does tend to look redder. This is because the the dust preferentially scatters the shorter wavelengths. (I think you knew that.) But this does not change the frequency of the light. The redhifts observed are caused by the expansion of space itself. Having said that, you make an excellent point about how these redshifts are able to be compared to other distance scales (standard candles) such as variable stars and supernovae. How strange it would be to claim that multiple independent distance measurements would give the same distance to objects that do not exist.

 

A very interesting thread to read thru.

A couple of questions for those that know more than I:

</font>

• Does gravity have any effect on light?</font>
• Is the speed of light constant regardless of the presence or absence of gravity?</font>
• If God exists outside of time (and I believe He does, for He created it), and time is the key to how far away the stars are (i.e. the distance the light has traveled), then is it beyond reason to say God created the stars and their light "history" without regard to time?</font>

Deuteronomy 4:19 And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.

 

Hi Michael,

Yes there are scientific publications concerning two subjects which bear upon this matter:

That the "constant" C (the speed of light) which for decades has been believed to be a constant has now been seen by some as a variable related to the closeness of the inception of the universe (Big Bang).

That the closer to the "Big Bang" the greater the possibility of "time-compression".

FWIW, while I don't endorse the Big Bang as such, these things might have been active "In the beginning". In my view this does not invalidate the 6/24 hour day creation.

Just as Jesus "compressed" in an instant the apparent time and activities necessary to make the wine at Cana without them having happened,so with the creation of the universe. Although I have had formal education in Physics and Modern Physics, one does not need this education to comprehend the miracle of the wine at Cana and compare it to the miracle of creation.

Let people believe what they will, this is my view.

HankD

 

I'm with you Hank. If someone tries to analyze a miracle using scientific methods they will come to wrong conclusions. Just like if we stood in the Garden of Eden after it had been created..and observed the trees and animals we would think it had been around for a long time.

God isn't deceiving anybody because He has told us what He did in the Bible. If people chose to reject that, that is their problem.

-kman

 

KMan said:

Way to go Kman! You are Kright!

Diane

 

If we were discussing an appearance of age, your protestations might be valid. But only on the periphery have you addressed the simple issue of going out into the night and looking up.

Without trying to do any scientific explanation, I can go outside, look up into the sky with a telescope, and witness a history unfolding before my very eyes. You try to counter with the standard appeal to an appearance of age. Let's take your example. If there really had been six days of creation 6000 years ago and if you could arrange to be placed there the next day, of course there would be an appearance of age. If there was no dirt, if all the plants were merely seeds and all the animals were newborns, it would not have been very functional. But even though there was an appearance of age, there would not be an alternate history there recorded for you to watch. (As an aside, people often try and use this to explain away all appearance of age. That is they try and equate the need for Adam to be created as appearing to be some form of adult and the need for dirt for the plants to grow in and so on with the evidence for great age such as radiometric dating. There is no functional need for the created rocks to show an appearance of billions of years of age. And yet they do. And in the process, they accept that there is evidence for great age that they cannot explain except to say that's just the way it is.)

If I look up into the sky, there is an alternate history unfolding contrary to what you are telling me is true. If the light was created in transit, these things I can walk outside and watch never actually happened! That is different from an appearance of age, that is letting me watch with my own two eyes something that never happened. So why provide a nonexistent history? Most of the objects you can go out and observe with the unaided eye are relatively close, so the night sky would still be interesting with only the close enough objects for the light to have actually reached here.

The two attempts that come close to addressing the issue. One, gravity. Yes gravity affects light. Gravity can deflect light, but not change its speed. We can even look up in the sky and see where the gravity of a massive object has bent the light from a more distant object. But that does nothing to get the light here any more quickly. Second, the changing speed of light. You mention that some scientists have recently proposed that the speed of light may not have always been constsnt. If you are familar with that, then you also know and neglected to mention that the changes are postulated in the first fraction of a second after the big bang, not throughout the history of the universe. Still doesn't help. Worse, if light speed had been faster in the past, then all these things that you can see when looking up in the sky would appear to be going in slow motion due to the change. That is not observed.

This is not trying to scientifically interpret a miracle, it is simply going out and looking up. But you would have me unable to believe my lying eyes. And that I cannot believe.

 

Neither did the apparent circumstances of the wine Jesus created which in my view is the same in spite of all objections.

I could also ask about the loaves and fishes, an instantaneous creation of fish (without so-called evolution) and bread.

Did Jesus lie to us in the Incarnation being the Eternal Logos the Second Person of the Trinity, yet was accused of appearing to be less than 50 years old?

Also, this is all speculation on every one's part.
None of us were there when the creation happened.

The science of origins changes from day to day, year to year, generation to generation.

The Word of our God (In particular Genesis 1-3) has never changed.

The one who was there and did the creating has led us to believe that it was a literal 6/24 hour day creation later confirmed in other Scripture.

For me that will do.

Having said that however and FWIW, I Personally don't question the faith of other brethren who profess salvation in the Blood Atonement of Jesus Christ, but have a different view of creation even an allegorical view of Genesis 1-3.

This of course as long as the personality, character and holiness of the Trinitarian God are not compromised as in some of the views in the sphere of theistic evolution.

There are several other related doctrinal issues but we have already worn them out.

HankD

 

Created and then “stretched”.

Isaiah 40:22
It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

Isaiah 42:5
Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

Isaiah 45:12
I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded

 

Thank you!!!!

I get so tired of this devilish excuse that "If the world's not ancient, then God is just trying to lie to us"!

You're right, God told us what happened, so the obvious choice is either to believe man or God.