Millenial Exclusionists sound off!

Dear Brother,

A large part of our disagreement here has to do with who is a “scholar” and who is not. The men whose names that you have supplied are not exactly noted for their knowledge of the Biblical languages or of any of the individual books of the Bible that they are referencing. As for the names that Joey Faust referenced in his book, there are very many of them, but not very many of these writers explicitly taught the doctrine of Millennial Exclusion. Most of them taught something very different. I shall post more on this matter at a latter date.

Note: Checking references is very time consuming, especially when wrong or inexact titles are referenced and when wrong page numbers of given. One of Joey’s most important references was an incorrect reference, and I sent him an e-mail asking for the correct reference, but he did not respond to my request. Incorrect references may very well be typographical and other technical errors, but running down the correct reference without the cooperation of the author can be nearly impossible. And until the correct references are learned and the material referenced is examined in context, there is no fair way to evaluate them.

 

I see that you have managed to post the names of three men who are not "cracked pots who have never had any formal education in the Biblical languages or the Greek text of the New Testament" but none of these men are “noted for their knowledge of the Biblical languages or of any of the individual books of the Bible that they are referencing.” But let’s take a look at these three men.

Robert Govett held only a masters degree and in his commentary on Romans he manifests his lack of both an extensive formal education and his lack of understanding of concepts that are integral to the understanding of the need for the atonement of Christ and the efficacy of it. Govett has been called “an innovative thinker” because his views of Biblical concepts are different from those of any of his predecessors. For example, on pp. 264-265 of his commentary on Romans he writes,

Since I have been known to teach the Epistle to the Romans from time to time, I have in my personal library at home 234 commentaries on Romans, plus many other volumes on Romans, several of the former of which are multivolume works. In just the three paragraphs that I quoted above there are several concepts that are unique to Govett.

But it gets worse, much worse. Govett teaches in his commentary on Romans that the atonement of Christ was largely ineffectual, and that the regenerate man is substantially the same as the unregenerate man. Indeed, Govett teaches that the redemption of the souls of men is realized in their own personal death rather than the death of Christ, and he cites Paul’s conversion as proof of this.

To be continued . . . .

 

W. H. Griffith Thomas, however, was both a fine scholar and deeply spiritual man who had an excellent grasp and understanding of both Paul and his Epistle to the Romans. Indeed he wrote the very finest devotional commentary on Romans that I am aware of. And of course the multitude of absurdities and ridiculous nonsense found in Govett’s commentary on Romans is completely absent in Thomas’ work. If you and your wife have not yet read this book, delay no longer.

How could such a scholar and deeply spiritual man who wrote such an exceptionally fine devotional commentary on Romans be a Millennial Exclusionist? I don’t believe that he was. However, I am perfectly willing to change that particular assessment if you can prove that he was. And, if indeed he was, you will have a man on your team that you can be proud of. Regardless, his commentary on Romans is superb.

 

amem preach it deafposttrib i totally disagree with joey fauset'teaching

Jesus warning to unbleiever/lazy servant according to matthew 24:48-51, matthew 25:26-30, matthew 25:40-46, and matthew 22:11-14. which Jesus speaking on condtional salvation.

bible does not saying that unworthy or lazy servant will suffer in torment of hell for 1,000 year then release them out of hell it does not saying about release them out of hell after judgment day. bible telling us unbleiver /lazy or unworthy servant will spent there for forever and forver after judgment day/ second coming of christ.

matthew 13:38-42 tell us that angels will coming and get unbleiver/lazy or unowthy servant and take away at second coming of christ and will cast them into lake of fire. also matthew 13:47-50 ,II thess 1:7-9.

 

Hello brumleyj,
May I ask you if you have read "The Rod, Will God Spare It?" by Joey Faust?
http://www.inthebeginning.org/schoettle/bookpreviews/faust/preview.htm

 

Yes, of course I read it. And of course, having served as a senior pastor for six years, I have in my library the book by W. H. Griffith Thomas that Joey quotes from (and I use that term very loosely). However, Joey did not include the page numbers from which he took the quotes. And Thomas’s book includes 548 pages. But of course if I misquoted W.H. Griffith Thomas like Joey did, I wouldn’t give the reader the page numbers either—after all, somebody might just take the time to check out the “quotes” and learn that W. H. Griffith Thomas did NOT believe in millennial exclusion or anything even remotely like it.

Joey Faust writes on page 327 of his book, The Rod, Will God Spare It?:

W. H. Griffith Thomas’ The Principles of Theology is a compendium of the Thirty-Nine articles of the Church of England. That alone should tell any reader of Joey’s book that there is something very rotten in Denmark, or, more to the point, in Joey Faust’s mind if he thinks that he found the doctrine of Millennial Exclusion in the Thirty-Nine Articles of the Church of England. And of course W. H. Griffith Thomas was an Anglican himself. And no, I am not making up a bologna sandwich—here are the exact words, in context, written by W. H. Griffith Thomas on pages 255-256 from which Joey appropriated his quotes:

Where in this quote does W. H. Griffith Thomas say that naughty Christians will go to hell for 1,000 years and then be released?

 

Dr. Earl D. Radmacher may believe in Millennial Exclusion, as do Zane Hodges, Joseph Dillow, and Robert Wilkin, but none of these men believe in millennial punishment as does Joey Faust, the most severe form of millennial exclusion.

Miles J. Stanford writes, “Back in August of 1990, Dr. Radmacher wrote to me as follows:

Subsequently, Dr. Chitwood wrote to Miles Stanford:

Miles Stanford writes,

This is very amusing academic scholarship !

 

Lacy,

You says,

Correct. I agree. Also, I agree with Rev. 20:12-15; and 21:1-4. I have no problem them.

But, why you saying Christians shall hurt 'second death' in the first place?

Didn't you realize Rev. 20:14 is very clear telling us the lake of fire IS the second death?

Rev. 2:11 warns us very clear, if any person failed to overcome(victory), will suffer the second death, means that a person will suffering everlasting punishment in the lake of fire.


David Walker,

I already told brumleyj about that book "The Rod" by Joey Faust, lot of details that I do not agree with his teaching - long time ago.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

p.s. by the way, I don't care how smart are the professors who received diploma like Master's, Doctor's, Ph.D's, etc... on theology doctrine. I already seen their interpreting the Bible are filled with their own philosophy, and logicals too much. I do not agree with their intepreting.

 

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Thomas comes right out and says that there are some (In Hell) who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life, and who are not cast into the LOF. Anyone who reads this scripture honestly, without a preconceived idea of how things have to be, would think the same thing.
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NOWHERE in the scriptures does it say this. You are reading something there, that is not there. Just because the lambs book of life is opened at the Great White throne judgement, does NOT MEAN that there are saved in death and hell. In fact, it seems more likely that the book is opened to show them that their names are not found in it.
Those whose names are found written in the lambs book of life, were either resurrected at the first resurrection (the first fruits) OR they were the saved Jews during the millenial reign. The scriptures DEMAND this interpretation.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

david m walker,

yes deafpostrib show me book called the rod will God spare it by joey fauest? also he show me some of joey fauest teaching. i did read some of it and did not argee with joey's teaching.

2 timothy 3:16 telling us to study and examine God's word. i prefer to stay stick with God's word from bible.

lacy,

Yes God will wipe thier tears after judgment day is done that means we will not remember no more of our old things while we are live on earth. who are not saved and spent lake of fire they will still remember of thier past things forever

 

Lacy,

Thomas does NOT say nor imply that some Christians are in Hell during the period between the 1st Resurrection and the GWT. He wrote,

Rev. 20:1. Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.
2. And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
3. and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.
4. Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
6. Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
7. When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,
8. and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.
9. And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
10. And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
11. Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
12. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
13. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
14. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
15. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

There are very many more published opinions of Revelation 20 than there are verses in it. Rev. 20:4 – Rev. 22:21 presents to the serious scholar of Revelation more contextual problems than all the contextual problems in the rest of the New Testament. Many commentators gloss over these problems, and, to a great extent, gloss over Rev. 20:11-15. R. H. Charles, however, in his 870 page commentary tackles these problems head on. Anyone who truly wants to understand the Great White Throne Judgment and who is present and when it occurs should most definitely read Charles’s commentary.

R. H. Charles, A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on The Revelation of St. John. T & T. Clark, Edinburgh, 1920. 2 vols.

This commentary is a standard work on Revelation and has been continually in print ever since it was first published in 1920 (a great rarity for a commentary on Revelation) and it can be purchased from many sources, both new and used, and it can be found in most university libraries, as well as Bible college and seminary libraries. It is expensive to purchase, even used, but it is a very valuable work and is indispensable for anyone who wishes to get their feet wet studying Revelation.

As for W. H. Griffith Thomas, he asks, “who are these mentioned as in the Lamb's Book of Life long after the first Resurrection?” And he does not answer the question. One possible answer, however, is that they are those who will be saved during the millennium and who will remain dead and un-resurrected till the Great White Throne Judgment, and who will then be resurrected from the dead (NOT hell) and stand before the Judge along with the unsaved persons who will be resurrected from Hades. No responsible exegete of Revelation has ever even suggested that the Apostle John was writing here about naughty Christians who had been in hell for one thousand years .

 

It is what Thomas assumes, but he does NOT assume that they belong to the group that was in Hades. Also, there are many scholars who agree with this view put forth by Michelle,

According to this view, the Book of Life was opened to show that God and His standards of judgment have not changed but have remained consistent. There is no implication at all that any additional names were found in it.

The bottom line here, however, is that you are reading into the words of W. H. Griffith Thomas just like you are reading into Revelation 20 and other passages in the Bible. Please stop posting in defense of Millennial Exclusion and Punishment until you have had an opportunity to study the issue. Please also stop quoting quotes from Joey Faust’s book until you have personally verified that the quotes are accurate and not taken out of context. Please also study the Thirty-Nine Articles of the Church of England so that you can learn what W. H. Griffith Thomas really believed and why he believed as he did.

 

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Why does it "seem more likely"? Because of your preconceptions. There is nothing there at all to lead us to believe that.

"Whosover was not found" implys (In any normal syntax) that some were found. This is exactly what Thomas assumes.
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It does not imply anything other than what it says. Why does it leave me to believe that? Take a look at what else I said to which you IGNORED:

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In fact, it seems more likely that the book is opened to show them that their names are not found in it.
Those whose names are found written in the lambs book of life, were either resurrected at the first resurrection (the first fruits) OR they were the saved Jews during the millenial reign. The scriptures DEMAND this interpretation.
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It is not an assumption Lacy. It is based upon the truth in the scriptures - the whole counsel of God. We are told to rightly divide the word of truth. YOu are not doing this regarding this topic, not even close, but rather relying upon the teachings of men, rather than what the scriptures reveal.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

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The traditions of men, who are unwilling to reconcile God's very real and very emminent warnings to believers, DEMAND this interpretation. The Scripture is plain as day.
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Oh really? Please then, show us all. You have yet to do this, and never will, because it isn't there.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle