Rapture: hocus-pocus

The context of John chapter 6 say nothing about "a thousand years". Simple, Christ tells us, "last day". Right now, we are in the last dayS since after Pentacost Day to now. The last dayS will be finally end at the end of the world WHEN Christ shall come with his angels - Matt 13:39-42, 49-50; Matt 25:31-46; and 2 Thess 1:7-10.

2 Peter 3:8 of 'a thousand years' is not literal period. The context of 2 Peter 3:3-13 talking about the last days scoffers say, "Where is is the promise of Christ's coming?" In the past, many were expecting, Christ might come anytime in their lifetime. But, many of them already died in the past centuries, Lord not yet come in their time. In another word, they make laughing, "Often, we hear warning or talking about Lord's coming, He suppose come anytime, but He never show up for hundreds or thousands years past to now, no way, He will come again, it is fake gospel." Same as during Noah's day, he warned to people that the flood will come and destroy the world. I am sure, that many people heard it many time during Noah's time for many years. They might saying: "Often, I hear rumours of the flood will destroy the world, but the rain never occur in 50 years to now." Same as Parents might told to their children, "I heard the old rumours about the flood when I was kid about 80 years ago, but the rain never occur in my lifetime, don't believe Noah's story. He's so nut." No doubt, I am sure, that many people were laughing at Noah for built a huge wood boat on the dry land, they thought he's nut, and refuse repent of their sins, not believe the flood will be occur.

Noah built the Ark for 120 years. God was longsuffering toward people while Noah builted the Ark for 120 years. God COULD HAVE destroy world earlier before 100 years, if he wants to. But, Lord do not want all people go perish, but He wants all people can to repent of their sins - 2 Peter 3:9. After 120 years past as Noah finished built the Ark, NO one was repent, or enter the Ark. So, God shut the door of the Ark, and the flood came and destroyed them away.

Flood is like as thief in the night. Apostle Peter made a point about the thief in the night. He tells us, Lord's coming shall not delay, His coming will be quickly like as thief in the night.

2 Peter 3:8 telling us, in our sight, 1,000 years seem so TOOOOOOOOO LONG TIME, but in the Lord's sight, 1000 years is TOOOOOOOO SHORT TIME for Him like as ONE DAY!!!

In another word, to use illustration of Noah's day. They have been hear the warning of the flood for past over 100 years. 100 years seem to them, it is too long time already. But, they have no idea when the flood will come. When the flood came and suddenly took them away with any expect. SO, this shall be SAME as Lord's coming is as thief in the night.

2 Peter 3:8 do nothing with the supposed future millennial kingdom. This verse speaks of difference between our sight and God's sight on the time. Understand?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

DeafPosttrib: "2 Peter 3:8 do nothing with the supposed future millennial kingdom. This verse speaks of difference between our sight and God's sight on the time. Understand?"

Nope, i don't understand.
Nor, apparently do you.
As long as you cannot find the physical/literal
Millinnial Kingdom of Christ, Millinnial Kingdom of God
in 2 Peter 3:8 -- you will be a miserable a-millinnialist with no
hope other than the Antichrist will make a clean kill (of your
family and you).

2 Peter 3:10 (HCSB):

But the Day of the Lord will come like a thief; on that day
the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, the elements will
burn and be dissolved, and the earth and the works
on it will be disclosed.

And one misses an eternity of Hope over
a failure to look up "day" in a dictionary
DAY -n. 8. the appropriate time

And you run off eeking because you can't see a 1,000
year DAY OF THE LORD". Strange with the 1,000 year long
"day" mentioned right in 2 Peter 3:8

 

2 Peter 3:10-13 speak of heavens and a earth shall be BURNED AWAY in THAT DAY at the Lord's coming. Obivously, we are eager and looking forward for new heavens and a new earth shall be follow at Lord's coming, not suppose 1000 years later AFTER Lord's coming.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

DeafPosttrib: ""the gates of hell shall NOT prevail
against it." - Matt 16:18 speak of Satan and
the enemies cannot destroy Christ's church."

There is more to it than that.
This does NOT teach that the church shall survive
the attacts of Satan; it is a picture of a successful
attack against the gates of hell, an attack against the forces of evil,
as though surounding hell in a siege.

 

Ed,

My time is not permit to make post on Matt 16:18. I have to go to work - 3rd shift job tonight. I will reply back to you tomorrow.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

You know we support you in prayer while you are working
the late shift.

 

I am glad this thread exist. It has helped me a great deal.

I was brought up on a pre-trib doctrine, but as I read my Bible more and more, I started to doubt a pre-trib rapture. First, Revelations says nothing about a secret rapture of believers.

I think the biggest argument that I saw against a pre-trib rapture was from the mouth of Jesus himself in Matthew 24, starting with verse 29 where our Lord and Savior says "But immediately after the tribulation of those days"....then Jesus goes on to explain the end time events in vivid detail, including the discription of people disappearing in a blinking of an eye, starting in verse 40.

I think when the apostles wrote about this later on, they were refering to Jesus's words in Matthew. The Apostles words taken by themselves, would seem to mean a sudden disappearance at any point of time.

I also started to read the Old Testament and saw how God protected his people. He protected Noah in an Ark. He and his family endured the Flood, but escaped the wrath. Moses and his family were spared God's wrath by marking their homes with blood. They endured the plagues, but escaped the wrath. They were still persecuted by the Pharoh, but God delivered them in the end.

My grandmother gave me a book 20 years ago written by Pat Robertson called "200 Answers to Lifes Most Probing Questions". Much to my surprise, Pat Robertson does not believe in a pre-trib rapture. He believes that Christian will endure the tribulation but will not be subject to the wrath. He thinks many will perish for their faith (as many are doing now in China and the Sudan), but he will Christians in other ways. Some Jews were spared the death camps by sympathetic Germans. Some Jews went into hiding within the homes of non-Jews.

I am leaning towards a post-trib rapture, when Jesus returns at the Mount of Olives, those dead in Christ will rise first, then those alive will follow to meet our Lord and Savior in the sky and become God's Army to defeat the Anti-Christ and his Army.

I've even heard that America could just be another Ark, where Christians might find safe haven. Sure, we are hated here, but the middle east is where a lot of the tribulation is going to take place, even though it will effect the whole world.

I also think that the Anti-Christ and his government is going to be Islamic. The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse are Red, Black,White and Green. These are the colors of Islam. Just look at the Iraqi flag.

The Muslims are awaiting their Mahdi (Messiah). Saddam thought he was the Mahdi. Osama bin Laden is considered the Mahdi. This Mahdi could be the one to make a truce with Israel. Imagine if a Muslim holy leader/politician came forward and made peace with the Jews and for three and a half years there was peace in the middle east and Osama bin Laden called off his Al Qaida warriors on their global jihad. It would be hard not to marvel at that feat.

Also, we need to remember the feet of the statue Daniel describes in Daniel 40. A Muslim/Jewish alliance would seem to be strong because the Muslims contend they believe in the same God as the Jews. We all know this is wrong, so I see the Muslims being the clay and the Jews being the iron.

Also, since I was a teenager and started reading the book of Revelation, I could not imagine how any modern government could re-enact the practice of beheading people, especially in todays politically correct world. An Islamic government, headed by the Islamic anti-Christ certainly would use the practice of beheading infidels. They do it today and millions of Christians have already been beheaded in Indonesia and Sudan by militant Muslims. This part of Revelation has already happened.

great thread!

[ April 30, 2004, 10:26 PM: Message edited by: JeffM ]

 

Sorry, the only group teaching
a secret rapture on this Baptist Board
are posties. None of the Pretribulation
Rapture Hopers on this Baptist Board have
ever mentioned a Secret Rapture on this
board save a postie mentioned it first.

Nowhere in the Bible is a secret rapture
mentioned. Everybody will know when
rapture/resurrections take place.

 

I Thess. 4:[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
[18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Can't imagine a shout, voice, and the trump of God being secret. The world will hear! As Christian airplane pilots are caught out of the cockpit to meet Jesus in the air, planes will be stuck on autopilot until they run out of fuel and then crash, Christian air traffic controllers will be gone, too, so will Christian semi-truck drivers and their trucks will keep on rolling out of control, Christian drivers will be gone, highways will be filled with crashes and carnage, Christian emergency personnel and police, fire, EMS services, doctors, nurses, patients, will be GONE! The world will be in utter chaos and martial law will have to be put into place in civilized countries to try to put things back in order.

Perhaps some nukes will have been launched when, in the twinkling of an eye, God's Saints are Caught up in the Air, right before the missles meet their targets? Who is to know? But God does.

And this scenario hasn't even touched the tip of the iceberg of the chaos that will follow after the Rapture of God's Saints and the Restraining Power of the Holy Spirit is taken from the Earth!...and THEN....the world will believe a delusion.

Nope, it sure won't be a "secret."

"...to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Yes, I am comforted by these words. Too bad the posties can't enjoy the peace and comfort, too.

 

Greetings in Jesus' name,

Again, the resurrection "at the last day" (John 6:39-54; 11:24) refers to the resurrection of believers (Revelation 20:4-6) at the beginning of the last thousand-year day of Creation, and of unbelievers at the end of the last thousand-year day (Revelation 20:5-13), for a thousand years are as a day in the Lord's sight (2 Peter 3:8), and no scripture says or requires that any unbelievers will be resurrected immediately after the second coming. 1 Corinthians 15:23; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16; Revelation 20:4-6 shows that believers will be resurrected at the second coming (Revelation 19), but Revelation 20:7-15 makes clear that unbelievers won't be resurrected until after the thousand years are expired.

Matthew 13:39-42 refers to the gathering and casting of all the tares into the lake of fire after the millennium (Revelation 20:15). Matthew 13:40's reference to the end of this world (or age) can be a reference to the world (or age) of this creation (John 9:32; Acts 15:18; 1 Corinthians 2:7), which will include the time of the millennium, subsequent to which creation heaven and earth will flee away (Revelation 20:11) and be replaced by the new creation (Revelation 21:1).

Matthew 25:31-46 will be fulfilled after the millennium (Revelation 20:7-15).

Just as the vengeance and eternal fire brought against Sodom and Gomorrha (Jude 7) wasn't the white throne judgment of unbelievers, so the vengeance and everlasting destruction that will be brought against the armies of the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9; compare Revelation 19:18-21) won't be the white throne judgment of unbelievers, for Revelation 20:7-15 makes clear that the white throne judgment won't occur until after the millennium and the battle of Gog and Magog.

Yes, 2 Peter 3:8 is saying that a literal thousand-year time-span is to the eternal God as short as a literal day is to men.

2 Peter 3:10 says that at the day of the Lord the heavens and earth will pass away; this passing away will not occur until the white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11), which will not occur until after the millennium and the battle of Gog and Magog (Revelation 20:7-10), so that 2 Peter 3:10-12 is referring to that "day" which will begin with the second coming and end at the white throne judgment (Revelation 19:11-20:15), the same thousand-year "day" that the prophet Zechariah is referring to in Zechariah 14:20-21, which will continue "in summer and in winter" (Zechariah 14:8-9) and "from year to year" (Zechariah 14:16), for a thousand years are as a day in the Lord's sight (2 Peter 3:8).

The Apostle Paul never taught imminence. Instead, he expressly taught the opposite of imminence, for in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 he said that Christ can't come and gather together the church until after the abomination of desolation (Daniel 9:27, 11:31-36, 12:11), which can't occur until after the Jewish temple is rebuilt in Jerusalem, for Jesus' coming (parousia) to gather together the church must destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:8). The Apostle Paul knew that he would die before the Lord came (2 Timothy 4:6).

The Apostle John never taught imminence. Instead, he confirmed in Revelation 7:14; 13:10, 14:12-13 that the church will be in the tribulation.

The Apostle Peter never taught imminence. Instead, he knew that he would die before the Lord came (2 Peter 1:14-15).

The writer of Hebrews never taught imminence. Instead, he said "Yet a little while, and he that shall come will come" (Hebrews 10:37), which is the opposite of imminence, for it means that some time must elapse before Jesus returns, while imminence says that no time at all has to elapse before Jesus returns. And if "a little while" can be almost 2,000 years, then it can include the relatively short tribulation as well.

There will be a false Messiah who will arise to rule Israel who will be a different person than the Antichrist and who will be a false "prince of the covenant" whom the Antichrist will "cut off" or "make a covenant with" or "make a league with" (Daniel 9:26; 11:22-23). The Hebrew word translated as "cut off" in Daniel 9:26 is karath (Strong's #3772), the definitions of which include "to covenant (i.e. make an alliance or bargain, originally by cutting flesh and passing between the pieces)." Karath is translated as "covenanted with" in 2 Chronicles 7:18 and Haggai 2:5, and is translated as "made a league with" in 1 Samuel 22:8. After making his treaty (league or covenant) with the false Messiah, the Antichrist will allow him and his followers to continue for a few years to offer sacrifices in a temple they will have rebuilt in Jerusalem, but then the Antichrist will suddenly break the treaty and stop all sacrifices and sit in the temple himself and proclaim himself to be God above all gods (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15; Daniel 9:27, 11:31-36, 12:11-12; Revelation 13:4-6).

In the Bible we see that no scripture says that the rapture will be before the tribulation. Matthew 24:29-31 shows Jesus coming and gathering together His elect in the rapture after the tribulation. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 refers to this same coming and gathering together (verse 1) and confirms that it can't happen until after the man of lawlessness is revealed (verse 3), for it must destroy him (verse 8). Revelation 7:14; 13:10; 14:12-13 confirms that we Christians will be here during the tribulation, and that we will need patience and faith during that time.

The restrainer who is removed before the Antichrist is revealed (2 Thessalonians 2:7-8) can't be the Holy Spirit because Christians will be persecuted by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:10, 14:12-13), no one can be a Christian without the Spirit (Romans 8:9), and Christ's coming (parousia) to gather together all Christians will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1, 8).

The comfort that the Apostle Paul refers to in 1 Thessalonians 4:18 is the answer to the sorrow that he's referring to in 1 Thessalonians 4:13, that is, the sorrow that we may never see our departed loved ones again. Therefore, the comfort has nothing to do with the tribulation.

God comforts us in all our tribulation (2 Corinthians 1:4) so that we can be filled with comfort and be exceeding joyful in all our tribulation (2 Corinthians 7:4).

We can have the peace of Christ and be of good cheer even in tribulation (John 16:33).

-

May the Lord Jesus Christ reveal to us the truth regarding these matters.

 

According to what I have always been taught about a pre-trib rapture, we suddenly disappear...poof...gone. There is no noise and the unsaved have no idea what happens. Millions of people are mysteriously gone and the world will clammer to try to explain the phenomena.

Even the movie "Left Behind" portrays it this way. Remember the airplane scene? Kirk Cameron's character and the rest of those left behind heard nothing. All that is left is little piles of clothing.

The great shout and the trumpet could only mean the moment Christ appears at the end of the seven year tribulation and touches down on the Mount of Olives. The Bible says all will see and hear it. This is where I believe those who are saved, both dead and alive will meet him in the clouds as he descends.

The Bible only teaches two comings of Christ. First when he is born, and his Second Coming as described in Revelation 19:11. A pre-trib rapture would mean a "third" coming and this is not Biblical.

Again, I can only rely on the words of Jesus himself in Matthew 24:29. This is the ONLY place in the Bible that gives an actual timeline of the end times events. Jesus says in verse 29:

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days"

Then in verse 31 he says "And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds from one end of the sky to the other"

Notice there is a great trumpet in verse 31, which is probably what is being described in I Thes.4:16

 

JeffM---lets not base our belief in Rapture/Resurrection based on LeHaye's Left Behind series----that's the "Hocas-Pocas" point of view!

Folks, get your heads out of LeHaye's "Left Behind" series and get your minds into God's "Left Behind" series---see, because LeHaye's series is a little bit less than infallable and inspired----laughable(theologicaly) at times---but far less inerrant than the word from the Word!!

 

Blackbird,

What I was saying in reference to the LEFT BEHIND movie was in response to LadyEagle.

I haven't read any of the LEFT BEHIND books, but I did see the movie.

Though I used to believe in a pre-trib rapture, I am doubting it for reasons given in my post above.

Again, Jesus says in Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the Tribulation of those days". This can only mean that he will gather his elect (saved) in a twinkling of an eye as he descends from Heaven with a shout and trumpet blast to defeat the Anti-Christ and the false prophet and his army at the end of the tribulation.

I still can't find a reference to a snatching away before the tribulation.

 

That is because you do not understand
the meaning of "and" specifically the
first "and" in Matthew 24:31.

You are probably familiar with the
connector "and" that connects two equal
sets (equal sets both have the same members
for each set). You are probably familiar
with the connector "and" that connects
a set and a subordinate set (Also known as:
subset). You are probably familiar with
the connector "and" that connects two
sets with similiar membership.

You do not seem to be aware of the
polysyndeton "and". Interesting, eh,
a literary devise used in prophecy.
So i guess English Students make the
best preacher material, eh?

------------------------------------
In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
ask three questions:

(in the order asked):
1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
2. What is the sign of His coming?
3. What is the sign of the end of age*?

* King James Version says "world".

Jesus answers these questions in
Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
some parables.

Here are the answers of Jesus in the
order the questions were asked:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

Here is a summary of the answers
in the order in which events will occur:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Soon, it was in 70AD

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
No signs preceeding the end of the age

2. What is the sign of His coming?
The Sign of His coming will be the
Tribulation period.

Recall the Greek language in which this
Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
So many ands, buts, and other connectors
give the outline. I believe the major
outline to be:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
Rapture/resurrection which ends the
current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
etc&gt

Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
church age even up to this time.
Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.

 

Amen, Brother Blackbird -- Preach it!

Tim LaHaye's Antichrist (A/C) is a weak-sister
beast. I don't think there will be much
fooling of a/c going on. There will be a
lot of killing. I think a/c will go overboard
and think nothing of killing ten people
in hopes of getting one Xian. Maybe that
is why it is called "the tribulation" instead
of "the Sunday School Picnic"?

 

quote:
----------------------------------
From the post in this thread made
on April 30, 2004 07:46 PM:
". . . Matt 25:31-46 . . . "
-----------------------------------

Postrib: "Matthew 25:31-46 will be fulfilled after
the millennium (Revelation 20:7-15)."

Interesting. I've never heard this ear tinkler.
I'll have to re-evaluate your doctrine.
I always figured you for a pretribulation rapture-ist,
premillinnial Second Coming-ist, historic
dispensationalist, futurist.

 

Ed,

You wish that Matt 24:29-30 is not include with verse 31 because of word, 'and'. Actually, there is no difference of word, 'and'.

You believe verse 30 and 31 both are separate.

By the way, you have to be realize while Christ lectured to His dsiciples about the signs and His coming, He does not use 'verse'. Old Testament scriptures were written without chapter and verse in Christ's time. Also, Apostle Paul wrote 13 epistles, these were like as letter, no chapter, no verse. Chapter and verse both were not yet exist during the first of two or three hundreds year from Calvary to after Constantine's era. These were epistles as letters. Christ lectured on the signs and His coming to His disciples at Mt. Olivet, he does not saying that the gathering together of the elect separate from his coming. Disciples understood what Christ saying that our gathering together cannot be occur till Christ must come first.

You saying, word - 'and' into separate events of time. If so,

Look to 1 Thess. 4:15-17 - "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are alseep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Do the word, 'and' in the context of 1 Thess 4:15-17 telling us, there are FIVE different events or comingS???

Matt. 28:19 - "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, AND of the Son, AND of the Holy Ghost:"

Does that mean we have THREE GodS????

1 John 5:7 - "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, AND the Holy Ghost: and these three are ONE."

'And' does not prove us, that there is separate objects or events or grammar. 'And' shows us, something is add unto within the continue sentence or grammar.

You keep saying 'and' of 2 Thess. 2:1 into two different events into gap time of 7 years. There is NO gap time in 2 Thess 2:1.

IF suppose you saying "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" is posttrib coming, and "our gathering together unto him" is pretrib rapture. Then, you put "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" - #2 order, "our gathering together unto him" - #1 order. If you want to saying it,

Then, why not you reedit or correct the translation of King James Version on 2 Thess 2:1 - "Now we bessech you, brethen, by our gathering together unto him, and by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." ? Is your comment of 2 Thess. 2:1 make a sense? No. Your comment is in the wrong order or chronological order.

Apostle Paul is right, that our gathering together unto Christ, cannot be occur yet till Christ must come first according to 1 Thess 4:15.

The reason you doing on Matt. 24:31 to separate it from verse 29-30, you break against the hermenuetic rule - intepreting in CONTEXTUALLY. No excuse for you to understand the context of Matt 24:29-31. You know better than that. You are 60 years old. You CAN read Matt. 24:29-31, what Christ talking about. Believe it, accept it, what Christ saying.

You saying Matt. 24:31 is a pretrib rapture. Then, prove me HOW do you know Matt 24:31 will be occur BEFORE the tribulation???????

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

those who are like-minded and are in the unity of the Spirit of Truth concerning this issue

DeafPosttrib: //You saying, word - 'and' into separate events of time. If so,

Look to 1 Thess. 4:15-17 - "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are alseep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."//

So you have a verse with different types of "AND" in it.
Fortunately i've already explained the answer to your
question:

Ed: //You are probably familiar with the
connector "and" that connects two equal
sets (equal sets both have the same members
for each set). You are probably familiar
with the connector "and" that connects
a set and a subordinate set (Also known as:
subset). You are probably familiar with
the connector "and" that connects two
sets with similiar membership.
You do not seem to be aware of the
polysyndeton "and". Interesting, eh,
a literary devise used in prophecy.
So i guess English Students make the
best preacher material, eh?//

These words: "alive and remain" show AND connceting
two equal sets (equal sets both have the same member
for each set). Those people who are alive in Chrsit when
Jesus comes again are the same people who remain
(the others having died before the rapture).

"with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God"
Here is an AND that connects three similar sets;
these sets are all related to the noise that
is made during the rapture/resurrection. Note that
"noise made during the rapture/resurrection is differenet
from "comings".

"trump of God: and the dead" this is a polysendenton AND.
shall rise first: Then we which are " this is a polysendenton THEN
("then" is a polysendenton connector showing time sequence.
Here THEN shows after the noise, the dead in Christ shall be
resurrected.)

to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord"
here AND is a polysendeton AND. Intersting what you can
tell about AND if you observe the context.

DeafPosttrib: "The reason you doing on Matt. 24:31 to separate it from verse 29-30, you break against the hermenuetic rule - intepreting in CONTEXTUALLY. No excuse for you to understand the context of Matt 24:29-31. You know better than that. You are 60 years old. You CAN read Matt. 24:29-31, what Christ talking about. Believe it, accept it, what Christ saying."

Please revert to English.
Your montra "you break against the hermenuetic rule - intepreting in CONTEXTUALLY"
Should be: "you violate a hermenuetic rule for you
don't intepret within context".
Sorry, your context is Matthew 24:29-31.
My context is Matthew all of chapter 24.
My context is bigger than you context

DeafPosttrib: "You saying Matt. 24:31 is a pretrib rapture.
Then, prove me HOW do you know Matt 24:31 will be
occur BEFORE the tribulation???????"

The "end of the age" in verse three.
Matthew 24:29-30 happens after the tribulation period judgement
when Jesus comes in power and glory to defeat the antichrist
and his agents.

 

Ed,

I will reply back to you tomorrow morning

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

Ed,

The whole context of Matthew chapter 24 talk about the second coming of Christ. The context of Matthew chapter 24 does not give any hint , that there are two comingS. Also, there is no hint of gap time between 7 years of two comingS anywhere in the context of Matthew chapter 24, you know that.

You did not answer my question: HOW CAN YOU PROVE Matt 24:31 saying it is "pretrib" gathering together?? I am wait for your answer, please.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!