Can a man sin a sin unto death after being born again.

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So which doctrine are you advocating Bob?
The doctrine of sinless perfection? or,
The Catholic doctrine of Mortal sins vs. Venial sins? Are you Catholic? Wesleyan?

 

How we treat sin communicates alot about our heart and our love for God. Jesus said if we love Him, we would keep His commandments. It would be wise to keep the fear of God prevalent. We tend to reconcile God's faithfulness as principles for safe boundaries. He is God. He is to be feared. I cannot read Hebrews 10:26 in my Bible without my fear of God making the hair on my skin tingle. It's clear we are but dust compared to His riches in glory. Christ is the only covering that keeps us from the most strict wrath in the universe. What Christian would be so bold as to gamble with that covering? Be ye therefore perfect, even as He is perfect.

 

The word "perfect" teleios, means complete. It also means mature. It does not mean sinless in any sense of the wordl. In fact John allows for sin. He knows we will be tempted and fall into sin. Thus he writes:

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

He also gives the warning to them that believe in sinless perfection:

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

Well DHK; we have been here before and probably will not agree this time, but what you say that the "sin unto death" is a early death, does not make sense.

1. Unless God took his life before he committed the "sin unto death", this man would have two problems.

a. He would die an early death as you say because he committed this "sin unto death".

b. He still would have one problem left, and that is "repentance" again, of which there is no repentance after death.

2. You answer to this would still leave a Christian (as you say) still unrepentant, therefore subject to the second death.

Now if it were as Jesus said impossible for this to take place, then a Christian could sin, but not a "sin unto death".
As Jesus said, there is a sin, and there is a "sin unto death" that I would not say to pray for.

I do and would rather believe that the Grace of God which saves a man, does not leave him, but rather stays with that saved man to keep him until the Lord comes again. I don't think that is a "sinless man" and neither do I think it is Catholic belief.

Think about it DHK; you solution would still leave that man a "unrepentant man", which would be subject to the second death. You answer of an "early death" would not help that man/woman at all, for they would still be a "unrepentant sinner".

BBob,


Why not quote this verse of John also DHK:
1Jo 3:9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

If someone shoots you, then you will die an early death, for fear not man who can destroy the body.

 

Would you stand before the throne of glory with your Zondervan Greek Dictionary explaining to God an interpretation of perfect?

Edited for rudeness!

 

I'm lost as to what you're trying to say in response to my post. The issue in this specific case was immediate death. They lied to the Holy Spirit and died on the spot. There's something to learn about that, but I don't think the message was that "If you lie to the Holy Spirit, God will strike you down dead at that very moment." If that was the lesson, I'm willing to bet God hasn't made good on it in every case.

 

I never said it is ok to sin. But we do have a sin nature, and a propensity to sin. It is a fact. We will sin. Thus John makes provision for it in both 1Jn.1:9 and in 1Jn.2:1. If you do not believe this please give an explanation for the verses being present in your Bible.
Most of the time the Old English word "perfect" in your KJV means 'complete" and ought to be translated that way. We are complete in the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

The Bible did not make Timothy perfect as in sinless. It completed him as a Christian. It made him more mature. It was profitable to him. He was made complete thoroughly furnished unto all good works through the study of God's Word. It didn't make him perfect as in sinless. Sinless perfection is error. It is theological error which needs to be condemned. It leads many away from the truth of God's Word. No man can live a sinless life--no one. In fact you can't even be sinless for one day; probably not even for one hour. If you say you can, you don't have a right view of the holiness of God.

 

Unto physical death? Certainly.

For instance, I can drink myself into a drunken stupor ( whichh is a sin),
then get behing the wheel and drive my car (which is against the law...which is also sinful) and crash into someone else's moving car killing the both of us (murder....which is sinful).

Or....I can willingly take my own life which is sinful.

Or I can fall into heroine addiction and die of respiratory failure. Being
hooked on drugs is sinful.

So, yes. There IS a sin unto death.

 

Please help me understand your position Brother Bob...

Are you saying that a "Regenerate" man who dies with one unrepented of sin has either not been regenerated in the first place, or has been "unregenerated?"

If this is your position, then the problem is your understanding of the context of John's epistle. The context of the letter from the very first chapter throughout is "fellowship with God." You have seemingly misunderstood the context to be "relationship with God."

Max

 

It might be a common misconception because of the age of salvation we are in. Some have over-realized eschatological views (loosely quoted form DA Carson). DHK, do you think it is an impatience that causes the doctrinal error of perfection?
On the other hand, there is a sound biblical doctrine that can be sound asleep (another DA Carson quote). Either be hot or cold. If we are lukewarm... I'm 24, so I'm very eager to be a pastor. Your Timothy quote hit right at home with me.

 

We are commanded to grow in grace. The entire doctrine of sanctification implies that the Christian life involves maturity and growth. In that process there is failure, and sin. God never condones it, but allows it to happen. The corrective process usually results in a stronger Christian at the end. We can see this process in place through the first epistle of Corinthians just as we can see the process of persecution and suffering as a process of purifying and maturing the Christian in the first epistle of Peter.

Jesus said:
Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Can any man love the Lord thy God, with all his heart and mind for just one mind, or even one hour. What would it take? For one hour every thought would have to be completely submitted to Christ. Every part of your body and all your emotions completely submitted to his service--just for one hour. Maybe you can do it for one hour. But for one day? For one week? For one month? for one year? When would you break? When would your thought processes be taken away from totally worshiping Christ, and allowing no other sinful thought into your mind? When would your body cease from serving Him alone? How long could you keep this up. The minute you stop, you sin. Realize the meaning of this verse.
And the second is like unto it.

 

If it is a sin that would do no good to pray for then yes, that person that died with a unrependant "sin unto death" is certainly lost. That is what the whole bible is about. That is what salvation is about. That is the difference between the sheep and the goats. That is why God puts some on the left and some on the right. That is why there is a Heaven, and there is a Hell. That my friend is the difference between a Christian and a ungodly person. That if fact is what Jesus said: "if you die in your sins where I am you cannot come". That is why he told us to go and preach "repent ye, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand."

Jesus said, even if he died and early death: There would be no "repentance" for that "sin unto death".

Hbr 6:4For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

Hbr 6:6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.

Hbr 10:26¶For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

How do you possible have an answer for that? These are not my words.

Mat 6:24¶No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Rom 6:16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

What kind of sins have you read the Apostles and Deciples committed?

 

For most of this thread, responders have missinterpreted the question. We are not talking about physical death here. We are talking about the second death which determines your eternal destiny, Heaven or Hell.

The question is whether someone can lose their salvation. I say yes. Christ said that we cannot obey two masters, Himself or the world. He said that those who love Him will keep His commandments.

Jhn 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Jhn 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Jhn 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Jhn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Jhn 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Jhn 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.
Jhn 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Jhn 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
Jhn 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
Jhn 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

What does being cast into fire mean. You can interpret as you will but I interpret it as being cast into HELL.

 

And so it is.
Jhn 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.

The person that is not abidiing in Christ is not connected to Christ. He no doubt never was. That is why he cannot bear fruit.

John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

Unsaved people do not bear fruit. The end of the unsaved is indeed hell. It is not speaking of the saved in these two verses.

 

I know you didn't ask me but even if it is hell, it will eventually end up in the Lake of Fire.

Rev 20:14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

 

It takes an extremely long stretching of eisegesis to get from the "sheep and goats" clause of Matt. 25 to the "no repentance" clause in Heb. 6 to the "sin unto death" clause in I Jo 5.
Let's not confuse the different issues,here.

Ed

 

Well summed up, IMO.

Ed

 

I would say that it is not only possible, but it actually occurs, according to John.

But as pinoybaptist wrote, Scripture does not define exactly what it is, only that it is!

Ed