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1 Cor.15 The rapture?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by UUall, Dec 31, 2005.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Aug 27, 2002
    Likes Received:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Unfortunately you did not "show" that in the text you gave. You show that the followers of Christ had revelation and those that did not follow the MEssiah pre-cross were left with "mysteries" (in Matt 12) - and that is accepted.

  2. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

    Jan 9, 2006
    Likes Received:
    Original question was: Is I Cor.15 the "rapture?" And I want to know is this "Biblical"?
    Answer: No, The Bible doesn't use that 'term'.
    Question: What is this event then?
    Answer: This is what it is called in Scripture. The changing, catching up, and catching away, described in I Cor. 15, I Thes. 4, and II Thes. 2:3 respectively, and I believe, symbolized by the call "Come up here..." to John in Rev. 3:1. The believers, said to be in Christ, are included. The dead are raised, first, and those yet living are taken up with them to "...ever be with the Lord". This is what it is called in Scripture.
    Question: That seems like a round about way to describe this event.
    Answer: I agree.
    Question: Can you suggest a single appropriate Biblical term to sort of describe this event?
    Answer: Of the three above, 'changing'. Outside of that, nope!
    Question: How about 'translated'?
    Answer: "'Translated' is an accurate assessment of what happens to the whole Body of Christ here, but one (the 'translation') I don't use here, for I do not think it is appropriate.
    Question: Why not? Weren't Enoch and Elijah 'translated' 'up'? If it is good enough for them, why isn't it good enough for what you are describing here? They ain't no different from me!
    Answer: That's three questions and a statement, but I'll answer anyway. Actually they are different from you. They are not part of teh body,
    Question: Can you suggest an inclusive term for this?
    Answer: Actually, yes- a 'theological' term.
    Question: Mind telling me what it is, or is it a mystery?
    Answer: Well, the event is described as a mystery, but the term is not.
    Question: What is the term? You're killing me here.
    Answer: 'Rapture'!
    Comment/Question: "RAPTURE!? -- RAP- BUT I Thought that- oh what's the use. Well just when is this supposed to happen?
    Answer: That's for me to know, and you to find out.
    Comment: You don't have to get so snooty!
    Comment: I was not being snooty. I'll know the trumpet when the trumpet sounds, and unless you know when, that's when you'll find out.

    Folks, this slightly humorous exchange is a good sum of exactly what I believe is outlined in Scripture. A key verse cited is II Thes. 2:3. The Greek word used there is 'apostosia'; the meaning of which is departure, and I believes refers in context to the departure of the Holy Spirit, allowing the rise and revealing of the Antichrist. I'm planning on leaving; I'm not of Israel. I am not hanging around for Jacob's Trouble, the Abomination of Desolation, or the battle of Armageddon. For those who do, I'll be waiting to say hello when you get there! Heh! Heh!
  3. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Aug 20, 2002
    Likes Received:
    The answer is "Yes". Perchange your Bible doesn't used that term. But THE BIBLE
    uses that term.

    1 Thessalonians 4:17 (KJV1611 Edition):
    Then we which are aliue, and remaine, shalbe caught vp together
    with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the aire:
    and so shall wee euer bee with the Lord.

    1 Thessalonians 4:17 (The Latin Vulgate):
    deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum
    illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera
    et sic semper cum Domino erimus

    'Rapiemur' is the proper form of Latin for its usage in that situation.
    The root word is that from which we get the English word 'Rapture'.

    The word RAPTURE is in THE BIBLE. The Bibleis NOT limited to one
    and only one language or one and only one translation within that
    language. Go check out:

    2Th 2:1 (KJV1611 Edition):
    Now wee beseech you, brethren, by the comming of our Lord Iesus Christ,
    and by our gathering together vnto him,

    The 'rapture' is called 'our gathering'.

    2Th 2:3 (KJV1611 Edition):
    Let no man deceiue you by any meanes, for that day shall not come,
    except there come a falling away first, and that man of sinne
    bee reuealed, the sonne of perdition,

    The 'rapture' is called a 'falling away' (like a 'falling away' from the earth).

    2Th 2:1 (Geneva Bible, 1587):
    Now we beseech you, brethren, by the comming of our Lord Iesus Christ,
    and by our assembling vnto him,

    The 'rapture' is called 'our asembling unto Him'.

    2Th 2:3 (Geneva Bible, 1587):
    Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come,
    except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne
    be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,

    The 'rapture' is called a 'departing' as 'departing' the earth.

    -Ed the first.
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Aug 27, 2002
    Likes Received:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Well that is interesting -- we both agree that the rapture event of 1Thess 4 IS ALSO the rapture event of 2Thess 2.

    That is a huge step foreward!!

    The NT saints of 1Thess 4 were in distress because they had friends who unfortunately died before the 2nd coming so they thought these friends were out of luck. They thought the return of Christ was right around the corner and they did not understand how the resurrection of the righteous (the one John calls the FIRST resurrection) plays into the 2nd coming - the appearing again of Christ. So in 1Thess 4 Paul shows that “our gathering together to Him” happens at Christ’s return and includes the resurrection of all the saints. (John calls this the “First resurrection” in Rev 20:4-5)

    In 2 Tim 2 we learn that the source for these errors regarding escatology in matters like the resurrection and the 2nd coming are coming from inside the church.

    In 2Thess 2 they suffer from a related problem regarding our “gathering together to him” (which we learned in 1Thess 4 is also the time of the First Resurrection – the resurrection of the Holy and Blessed – the saints – the dead in Christ)

    The focus of 2Thess 2 is "Our gathering together to Him" which as we already saw in 1Thess 4 happens at "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ".

    Paul corrects the error being foisted onto the church regarding "our gathering together to Him" in 2Thess 2. In so doing he is also correcting the view on the event at which we are gathered together to Christ -- the "Day of the Lord".

    Paul shows that the Day of the Lord is when we are gathered to Christ. - this is the Return of Christ as He promised saying "I will come again" John 14:1-3.

    2 Thess 2 says that our being gathered to Christ will not happen until after the antichrist the man of sin and lawlessness is seen to do his work

    When Paul says "IT WILL NOT COME" unless the apostasy comes first AND the man of lawlessness is revealed" he is quick to insert "so let no one in anyway deceive you".

    The deception they were offered is that our gathering together to Christ at the 1Thess 4 focal point for the church - could happen BEFORE the events Paul says must happen FIRST.

    Are any still deceived on that same point today?

    This is the summary argument showing the error of those who were in error regarding the resurrection of the saints and “our gathering together to Him”. It debunks that error "in a nutshell" so to speak.

    Then Paul goes into "more detail". He backs up starting with the present time (His present day)and walks the reader through to the future --

    The cure for their error had already been given by Paul - according to vs 5 above.

    He points to the present existence of that evil lawless one and takes them through to the future when that lawless one is "revealed" when Christ exposes him at the "appearing" - the "Appearance of His coming"

    That completes the sweep of history showing the revelation of not only the wicked one but also the appearing of Christ that follows. He shows that this wickedness continues “until he is taken out of the way” by the appearing of Christ – which as they saw in 1Thess 4 is the moment also of the resurrection of the saints. Because 1Thess 4 has already been give to them all Paul needs to do is point them to the time of Christ’s appearing to solve the problem they are having with the timing of the resurrection.

    Then Paul clarifies with more detail about that lawless one.

    No part of this mentions the work of the AntiChrist or man of sin AFTER the appearing of Christ. No activity at all is attributed to the man of sin after Christ appears and puts a stop to it.

    Paul points out this important list of events that must preceed the appearing and the resurrection that is associated with it (see 1Thess 4 for the appearing of Christ, our gathering together to Him and the associated resurrection. Truth already given to the church of the Thessalonians)

    The members of the Church in Thessalonica were under deception regarding the time of the resurrection of the righteous at the Coming of Christ – the Hope and focus of the NT Church. So Paul provides the much needed correction by telling them that -

    1. 1, BEFORE the resurrection they were looking for would come the revelation of the end-times antichrist "man of sin" vs 3,8

    2. BEFORE the resurrection they were looking for would come the falling away within the church - the apostasy the dark ages 3

    3. BEFORE the resurrection they were looking for would come the withdrawing of the Holy Spirit, Vs 7

    4. BEFORE the resurrection they were looking for would come the revealing of Satan himself attempting to counterfeit Christ showing himself as if HE is god! Vs 4, 9

    It would be wise for us to listen to those words of Paul as well since many are still deceived on those same points.

    The context is the “Coming of Christ” AND “our gathering together to Him”. The rapture!

    Christ said in John 14 “I GO to prepare a place for you”. We have a place in heaven – in His Father’s house. And Christ stated “I will Come AGAIN” and stated the purpose as being “THAT where I am there you may be also”. So our gathering together to Him is the focus of John 14, 1Thess 4 and now of 2 Thess 2:1-5

    The early church was facing the problem of false letters from Paul. The false teachers were claiming that the dead had already been raised. We see the dead raised with Christ in Matt 27 and this may be what they were referring too – using it to mislead the saints of the NT.

    Paul points to the same problem when writing to Timothy –

    Those letters “may have” contained doctrinal error – including the error that the return of Christ had already taken place. “The Day of the Lord” is equated here with the return – or “coming of our Lord Jesus Christ”.

    Paul denies an “immediate rapture” POV – stating that certain “events must come first” including the apostasy “falling away” of the Christian church from truth. The word “anti-christ” is not used here – rather it is “son of destruction”, “man of lawlessness”.

    4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

    The actions of this future “man of lawlessness” is to exalt himself above “so-called-gods” (Those that are not really god) and to seat himself in the temple of god. (Given the context this may be considered as the so-called-temple of god). The real temple of God after the cross is described in Heb 8 and the statement is made that if Christ were on earth “He would NOT be a priest” in the temple on earth (Heb 8:4). A temple without priests to minister- does not “function” and can not be the temple of God.

    Christ said that the leaders of the Jews sat “in the seat of Moses” (Matt 23:2) because “Moses took his seat to serve as judge” (Exodus 18:13) – it is assuming a position (of authority in this case) – not a “place” in Israel.

    In the same way in - in Psalms 1:1 David commands us not to “sit in the seat of scoffers”

    Clearly this enemy is not allowed into Heaven to sit on God’s throne or in the Heb 8:1-4 temple in heaven. And to argue that he is seated in the non-existent temple of God in the Most Holy place where the glory of God is – is to rely more on imagination today than an actual fact in Israel since there is no such temple and God has not placed His glory there since even before the time of Christ.

    The earthly sanctuary – in service – marks the period of time when the heavenly sanctuary did not function.
    In Heb 10:9 the point is clearly made “He takes away the first to establish the second”. The earthly temple system needed to end. In Heb 9 the point is made again that the way into the heavenly temple is not open while the first temple has a valid, authorized service taking place. This means that the earthly sanctuary service as merely a shadow or prelude to the antitype – the heavenly sanctuary service.

    Rev 15:8 shows us that the heavenly sanctuary service continues to function right up until the start of the 7 last plagues as they are sent to fall upon the earth.

    Paul says that

    8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;

    This “appearing” is the same appearing we saw in 1Thess 4.

    This appearing is simply “of His Coming” – the one He promised in John 14:3 “I will come again”.

    Then Paul goes back to the subject of the great antichrist the great man of sin – Satan himself.

    The key at the end is the same today – we must receive a love of the truth so as to be saved. Why is this so important? Why can’t we just love Christ and forget about always having to love the truth and want more of the truth? Because Christ IS “the Way the Truth and the Life” John 14 - and the Spirit of Christ IS the “Spirit of Truth” John 16. The “WORD” became flesh and dwelt among us (John 1) as we see even in Rev 19 at Christ’s appearing He is even then still called “The WORD”. To love Christ is to Love the Word of God as well!

    In John 15 Christ says “IF I abide in you and you in me” and then explains that at “MY Word abiding in you and you abiding in My Word”

    No wickedness proceeds past this focal point of 2Thess 2! – God judges “ALL” – according to the text.
  5. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Aug 20, 2002
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    Amen, Brother -- Preach it!

    The Day of the Lord here is the 70th week of Daniel; a
    7-year-day. The gathering of the Christians starts pretribulation;
    the complete Return of the Lord finishes the 70th week,
    the Tribulation Time, the Great Tribulation, etc.
    All this is done in ONE DAY: the 70th Week of Daniel.
  6. UUall

    UUall New Member

    Dec 17, 2005
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    Putting aside the movie theatrics, can we do with 1Thes4 as we done with 1Cor.15?

    1 THES. 4 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
    1 THES. 5 [1] But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. [2] For yourselves know perfectly that THE DAY OF THE LORD so cometh as a thief in the night. [3] For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then SUDDEN DESTRUCTION cometh upon them, as travail upon a WOMAN WITH CHILD; and they shall not escape.

    Doesn’t [1Thes.5] explain to us that [1Thes.4] takes place on The Day of the Lord? There is no scriptural gap between the above scriptures. 1Thes.5 directly follows 1Thes.4 verse 18. It clearly says that the goins on of 1Thes.4 takes place on the Day of the Lord. Sure does!
  7. UUall

    UUall New Member

    Dec 17, 2005
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    ED Wrote
    The Day of the Lord here is the 70th week of Daniel; a 7-year-day.

    So Ed, are you saying the tribulation last 7 yrs and the Day of the Lord last 7 yrs? Can you show me this in scripture? I already know of Daniels 70th week. The stories ive heard of this last week(put out at the end of time) are very amusing. Almost Jack Van Impyish! Are you that shallow?
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Aug 27, 2002
    Likes Received:
    Non Baptist Christian
    All very true.

    The 1Thess 4 rapture event takes place on the great day described in Rev 19 and in 2thess 2 as "the coming of the Lord".

    It is the great promise that Christ set for the pre-cross saints in John 14:1-3
  9. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Aug 20, 2002
    Likes Received:
    I have to go to bed.

    I do not think that a Triune God has
    one and only one DAY OF GOD;
    I do not think that a Triune Lord has
    one one only one DAY OF THE LORD.
    There might be only one DAY OF CHRIST
    cause there is only one Christ.

    Generically, the DAY OF THE LORD
    is any time in which God interceedes in
    the afairs of mankind. The first interceeding
    was THE FIRST ADVENT when Jesus shed His
    Blood, the Perfect/Eternal sacrifice.
    The second interceeding will be THE SECOND
    ADVENT which Jesus:
    1. comes to get His own
    2. comes in power to destroy the Antichrist
    (Beast from the Sea, Man of Sin, etc),
    the Beast kingdom, and set up the earthly,
    physical, literal Millinnial Messanic Kingdom.
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Aug 27, 2002
    Likes Received:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Good question!

    In fact can you show in scripture that Bible timelines like the 70 weeks of Daniel can be "Sliced up to fit man's traditions" instead of just keeping the timeline intact (the way we do with ALL Bible timelines!!).
  11. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Aug 20, 2002
    Likes Received:
    Romans 1:11-29 (HCSB = Christian Standard Bible /Holman, 2003/ ):

    1 I ask, then, has God rejected His people? Absolutely not! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.
    2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the Elijah section--how he pleads with God against Israel?
    3 Lord, they have killed Your prophets, torn down Your altars; and I am the only one left, and they are trying to take my life!
    4 But what was God's reply to him? I have left 7,000 men for Myself who have not bowed down to Baal.
    5 In the same way, then, there is also at the present time a remnant chosen by grace.
    6 Now if by grace, then it is not by works; otherwise grace ceases to be grace.
    7 What then? Israel did not find what it was looking for, but the elect did find it. The rest were hardened,
    8 as it is written: God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that cannot see and ears that cannot hear, to this day .
    9 And David says: Let their feasting become a snare and a trap, a pitfall and a retribution to them.
    10 Let their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent continually.
    11 I ask, then, have they stumbled so as to fall? Absolutely not! On the contrary, by their stumbling, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel jealous.
    12 Now if their stumbling brings riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full number bring!
    13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. In view of the fact that I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
    14 if I can somehow make my own people jealous and save some of them.
    15 For if their being rejected is world reconciliation, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?

    16 Now if the firstfruits offered up are holy, so is the whole batch. And if the root is holy, so are the branches.
    17 Now if some of the branches were broken off, and you, though a wild olive branch, were grafted in among them, and have come to share in the rich root of the cultivated olive tree,
    18 do not brag that you are better than those branches. But if you do brag--you do not sustain the root, but the root sustains you.
    19 Then you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
    20 True enough; they were broken off by unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid.
    21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you either.
    22 Therefore, consider God's kindness and severity: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness toward you--if you remain in His kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
    23 And even they, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, because God has the power to graft them in again.
    24 For if you were cut off from your native wild olive, and against nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these--the natural branches--be grafted into their own olive tree?
    25 So that you will not be conceited, brothers, I do not want you to be unaware of this secret: a partial hardening has come to Israel until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.
    26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written: The Liberator will come from Zion; He will turn away godlessness from Jacob.
    27 And this will be My covenant with them, when I take away their sins. 28 Regarding the gospel, they are enemies for your advantage, but regarding election, they are loved because of their forefathers,
    29 since God's gracious gifts and calling are irrevocable.
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Aug 27, 2002
    Likes Received:
    Non Baptist Christian
    There is "no timeline" in Romans 11.

    At least we can "all" see that.

    In Daniel 9 we start with the "70 year timeline" of Jeremiah and at the end of Daniel 9 we see the 490 year timeline (70 weeks of years) - the ONLY timeline that your view needs to slice and dice.

    To justify that abuse of the text in Dan 9 - you want to go to a NON-TIMELINE (events without a time given) and claim that God gave some number (as in the case of the 490 year TIMELINE) in Romans 11 -- and the numeric timeline of Romans 11 (that does not actually exist) is to be sliced and diced using the same abuse that you employ on the Messianic Timeline of Daniel 9!!

    But obviously even a cursory review of the text shows NO TIMELINE AT ALL in Romans 11!!

    Rather it provides reference to "an event with no time given AT ALL!!"

    The fact that THIS is your best excuse for the abuse you would make of an ACTUAL timeline -- is speaking "loud and clear"!!

    Nice going.

    In Christ,

  13. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

    Jan 9, 2006
    Likes Received:
    There may not be a "timeline" per se expressly stated in so many words as such in Romans but there surely looks like an historical progression, here. Well, to me at least. Let's see: Abraham, Benjamin, Elijah, salvation to the Gentiles, Israel's blindness until (note that little word, 'until', and note the change here from past tense to future tense) the fullness of the Gentiles "comes in" , "And THEN all Israel SHALL BE saved, the liberator comes, and the covenant will be established when the sins are taken away. The mention of David slightly outside this progression does not invalidate it, for David is named as a source of an explanatory scripture, not as the next thing happening. Since one has to explain better than I do, sometimes apparently, I shall here explain 'And THEN', as I rendered verse 26 is, I believe, the correct sense of the Greek "`kai `'outOs", which I shall now use as 'kai outos'. An usage of outos kai is an anthesis, and though used some is not here, for the sense Paul is using does not intend to show contrast, but rather continuity. On a word by word basis, this would be rendered 'and' 'so/thus/ in this manner/ consequently/THEN' among others. Here, following the New Life and WWE NT, although all other renderings are permissible as is the HCSB above. I just see 'THEN' as the best rendering. That given, as I see the progression, "Ah shore would liken ta' git a name fer it all. Let's see if'n Ah kin come up with one. By golly, Ah thinks Ah got one that fits; Ah'll call it a timelin...!"
  14. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

    Jan 9, 2006
    Likes Received:
    I do apologize to all for my poor attempts to render a Greek word on an 'English' keyboard, and with his very limited skills, the 'typer' makes 'typos'.
  15. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Aug 20, 2002
    Likes Received:
    BobRyan: //There is "no timeline" in Romans 11.//

    Very good. There is no timeline in Romans 11.
    Nobody claimed it, but there is no timeline there.
    So you have won one point for being right and lost a point
    because nobody brought forth that point.

    The reason I put in the major part of Romans 11 is:
    1. I didn't have time to post.
    2. Romans chapter 11 answers your question
    (without mentioning TIME LINE)

    [quoate]In fact can you show in scripture that Bible timelines
    like the 70 weeks of Daniel can be "Sliced up to fit man's traditions"
    instead of just keeping the timeline intact (the way
    we do with ALL Bible timelines!!).[/quote]

    Please remind us of examples of 'ALL OTHER TIMELINES'.
    You have mentioned already the 70-year timeline of Jeremiah for
    the Babylonian captivity.


    Daniel 9:24-27, timeline divisions noted with bolding.
    The three stars show the division between the discussion
    of Prince Messiah and the Prince that shall come
    /see also Daniel 11/ (KJV1611 Edition):

    Seuentie weekes are determined vpon thy people,
    and vpon thy holy citie, to finish the transgression,
    and to make an ende of sinnes,
    and to make reconciliation for iniquitie,
    and to bring in euerlasting righteousnes,
    and to seale vp the vision and prophecie,
    and to anoynt the most Holy.
    25 Know therefore and vnderstand, that from the going foorth
    of the commandement to restore
    and to build Ierusalem, vnto the Messiah the Prince,
    shall be seuen weekes; and threescore and two weekes,
    the street shall be built againe, and the wall, euen in troublous times.
    26 And after threescore and two weekes, shall Messiah be cut off,
    but not for himselfe,
    and the people of the Prince that shall come,
    shall destroy the citie, and the Sanctuarie,
    and the ende thereof shall be with a flood,
    and vnto the ende of the warre desolations are determined.
    27 And hee shall confirme the couenant with many for one weeke:
    and in the midst of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice
    and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of abominations
    hee shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation,
    & that determined, shalbe powred vpon the desolate.

    It is the TIMELINE SCRIPTURE itself that divides the first
    69 (7:62) weeks and the last week. The first 69 weeks go from
    the going forth of the commandment to restore Jerusalem
    until MESSIAH THE PRINCE (i.e. Jesus).
    The last weeks is about 'the Prince that shall come'.
    Obviously the city and sanctuary were destroyed by the Romans
    in 70AD. So at least the 40 years from the death of Jesus
    and His Wonderful Resurrection to 70AD are OFF THE TIMELINE.

    If it weren't for the gap you and I, gentiles, would not NOT
    have been saved and would NOT have been having this discussion.
    Our discussion PROVES THE GAP between the 69th and 70th week.
  16. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Aug 20, 2002
    Likes Received:
    The following quote comes from another topic:
    Other Christian Denomination
    Did God change his mind? (Page 4)

    1. "unless we overcome we will never see heaven"
    is different from ""He who overcomes will not be hurt
    by the second death."
    So you cannot prove the contention: contention:
    "unless we overcome we will never see heaven" from that verse.
    However, I conceed that the proposition: "unless we overcome
    we will never see heaven" is true and is shown elsewere in
    the Bible.

    2. The contention: ""He who overcomes NOT will be hurt
    by the second death." is NOT proved by using the
    Bible Verse: "He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death."
    They are two seperate contentions and must be proved independantly
    (one does NOT logically follow from the other).

    This lack of logic is common among those who don't know what OSAS means
    or really what 'salvation' means.

    I also find many who have bought into the Post-Tribulation Only
    theory have also bought into the no-OSAS. These two errors tend to
    cause NO HOPE. According to these (no-OSAS, no pretribualtion rapture)
    we can look forward to entering the Tribulation period where if
    we (like 999,990 out of a million will) overcome not, we will be
    fried for eternity in the hottest part of hell.

    (minority report, we don't look forward to, we are in - the
    a-tribulation/rapture a-mill theory).

    Sorry, pretribulation rapture (a part of premillinnial Second Advent)
    is more like the Bible.

    Now, why is 1/4 of the New Testament about what a person should do
    now that they are a Christian?

    First let me define OSAS (once saved, always saved):

    John 3:16 (version in Ed's head):
    For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten
    Son so that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but
    have eternal life.

    What I call OSAS is what the bolded phrase means:
    will not perish but have eternal life.

    Here are some things we are saved FROM when Jesus saves us:
    1. paying the penalty of sin (Jesus already paid it)
    2. entering the Tribulation Period (Beast Kingdom)
    3. suffering the second death

    OSAS is about the faithfulness of God not the fidelity of man.
    Jesus saves.

    The 1/4 of the N.T. about what a Christian should do is
    a good (self examination, we are not to judge one another) list
    of what we will be doing IF WE GOT SAVED BY JESUS.
    If Jesus really did save me, then I will overcome.

    And if I fail Jesus?
    1 John 1:9 (HCSB):
    If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive
    us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    Written by a Jew (Zeph.) to Jews (O nation not desired).
    Is the author of the "see" statement an unsaved Jew?
    At the pretribulation rapture, the mostly Gentile church
    is involved plus those Messanic Jews who beleive Jesus is
    their Messiah. The Tribulation Period after this Gentile Age
    and before the Millinnial MEssanic Kingdom Age is God's plan
    for saving a maximum number of Jews (some 18 Million, if
    the pretribulation rapture is today).

    Nope. Go study in the KJV the phrase "before the foundation of the World"
    and "since the foundation of the World".
    You will find before creation HOUR (foundation of the World)
    that God's plan to have Christ die for the sins of the mostly
    Gentiles - that plan was there "before the foundation of the World"
    and that the plan to save the Jews (there were given a chance in
    the first advent but blew it) was present only
    "from the foundation of the World" or "since the foundation of the World".
  17. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Aug 20, 2002
    Likes Received:
    Other Christian Denominations
    1 Cor.15 The rapture?

    We have been using the following definitions on the BB for awile now:

    rapture1 - the raising of a human person by Jesus
    ---------- for transport to heaven, this is an event
    ---------- which happens before the Tribulation period

    resurrection1 - - the raising of a human person by Jesus
    ---------- for retention on earth, this is an event
    ---------- which happens after the Tribulation period

    rapture2 - the falling away from this earth of living saints
    ---------- who are given new bodies for temporal and heavenly
    ---------- habitations

    resurrection2 - the bringing back to life of dead saints
    ---------- who are given new bodies for temporal and heavenly
    ---------- habitations

    resurrection3 - - the bringing back to life of dead people
    ---------- who are judged and damned eternally

    Generally the numeric subscripts are NOT included so everybody has
    to guess what everybody else is really talking about???

  18. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Aug 20, 2002
    Likes Received:
    Ah, so Isaiah did see the pretribulation rapture1.
    After the rapture1 those who are in Christ shall be in Heaven
    which the indignation (Tribulation period) passes.


    In pretribulation Rapture1 eschatology this is worthwhile,
    we shall own the earth for 1,000 years.
    In a-mill eschatology this is useless, the earth shall
    disolve in the self-same 60-minute hour that the Lord
    gives us the earth. Sorry, there are times when
    1 hour IS UNEQUAL TO 1,000 years [​IMG]
  19. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Aug 20, 2002
    Likes Received:
    Rom 11:26 (KJV1611 Edition):
    And so all Israel shall be saued,
    as it is written, There shall come out of Sion
    the Deliuerer, and shall turne
    away vngodlinesse from Iacob.

    'and' from Strong's:

    Apparently a primary particle, having
    a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative
    force; and, also, even, so, then, too, etc.;
    often used in connection (or composition) with
    other particles or small words: - and, also,
    both, but, even, for, if, indeed, likewise,
    moreover, or, so, that, then, therefore, when,
    yea, yet.

    'so' from Strong's:
    Or, before a vowel, οὕτως houtōs hoo'-toce.
    From G3778; in this way (referring to what
    precedes or follows): - after that, after (in)
    this manner, as, even (so), for all that,
    like (-wise), no more, on this fashion (-wise),
    so (in like manner), thus, what.

    Yes, Brother EdSutton, looks like
    TIMELINE right there in Romans Chapter 11.

    Anyway, for sure, the transplanted branch
    is FULL JUSTIFICATION for the gap between
    Daniel's 69 and 70th week.

    2 Peter 3:9 (HCSB):
    The Lord does not delay His promise,
    as some understand delay,
    but is patient with you,
    not wanting any to perish,
    but all to come to repentance.

    Ah ha, the Gentile Repentance GAP.
    tee hee, you know, the one NOT mentioned
    but talked about a lot [​IMG]
  20. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Aug 20, 2002
    Likes Received:
    1) From Adam until the descending of New Jerusalem,
    how many ages are there?

    I don't know. The Bible doesn't say.

    2) Is the Holy Spirit required for salvation?


    3) Does/Has God changed?


    4) Does/Has Jesus changed (besides the obvious)?


    5) Is the Holy Spirit "raptured" at the same
    time as the believers?

    No. "Raptured" means to get a glorified body without
    dying. The Holy Spirit doesn't need a body.

    6) Who are the 144,000 sealed Jews?

    A group of Messanic Jews from the church age
    raptured at the pretribulation rapture/resurrection
    selected for special service on the earth
    during the Tribulation period.

    7) Are these 144K Jews evangelists?

    The Bible does not say it.
    Millionare novel writers say it [​IMG]

    8) Is there more than one way or method that one can be saved?

    No. Salvation is through Jesus ONLY.

    9) Are there different classes of the saved?

    No. But count me among the haired saved
    (as opposed to the bald saved).

    A) Can the Jews be saved outside of Jesus?


    B) Is works necessary for salvation?

    Yes, the works of Jesus are necessary.
    No, the saved individual is saved by the works of Jesus,
    not by their own works.

    C) Will there be a mass period of evangelism during
    the tribulation?

    No, for gentiles.
    Yes, for Jewish Israeli.

    D) Is martyrdom a prerequisite for salvation
    during the tribulation?

    Yes, for gentiles.
    No, for Jewish Israeli.

    E) If the Holy Spirit is not here during the tribulation
    then how can anyone be saved?

    Unanswerable question based on a faulty premesis.
    The Holy Spirit will be on earth during
    the Tribulation period.

    F) Can God protect His children on the earth from His wrath?


    10) Are those mentioned throughout the NT as elect
    the Jews or the Church?


    11) What are the moral implications on pre-tribbers
    if they are wrong and the Lord comes at the
    end of the tribulation only once?

    None. The whole idea of any eschatological teaching
    should be to encourage holy living NOW.

    12) Does my belief in a post-trib return of our Lord affect
    or negate my "rapture" at the beginning of the tribulation?

    No. Only your personal relation to the Savior: Messiah Jesus.

    13) Do you believe that only spiritual Christians
    will be "raptured" out at the beginning of the
    tribulation, leaving non-spiritual ones here?

    Nope. I'm an ALL or NONE pretribulation rapturist.

    14) Do you believe that since the word "church"
    is not found between Revelation 4 and 21 the church
    is not on the earth?

    Yes, the gentile church-age church is not found.
    The Jewish Israeli chruch is found after the
    mid=trib crises

    15) Since the early church fathers (ECFs) did not
    believe in a pre-trib "rapture" did that affect
    their salvation?

    If your premesis is true, it did not affect their

    16) Which is superior, the English translations,
    or the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek?

    The translations written in the language
    that i understand: 20th century English.
    The nKJV is the best, but NIV, NASB, NLT
    contain the written word of God: the Holy Bible.

    17) Do you believe the tribulation will be pre-mil,
    post-mil, or a-mil?


    18) Are the church-age saints (those today)
    considered the Bride of Christ?


    19) Are the OT saints considered part of the Bride of Christ?


    1A) Are the trib-saints considered part of the Bride of Christ?


    1B) Are the Jews who are saved after the tribulation
    saved outside of the blood of Christ?


    1C) Why are people saying today "Where is the
    promise of His return?" (Fulfilling
    the scripture: 2 Peter 3:4 And saying,
    Where is the promise of his coming?
    for since the fathers fell asleep,
    all things continue as they were from
    the beginning of the creation.)

    They don't see God's mercy toward them.

    1D) Can you, as a pre-tribulationist, afford to be wrong?

    Yes. Trusting Jesus is a higher calling than
    one's x-trib position. The same actions i call for
    to be Rapture Ready in the church age are the actions needed for
    a postribulation rapture.

    1E) What are the implications on you, your family,
    your friends, your church, should pre-trib be proven wrong?

    They will probably be disapointed in me that i
    didn't see that God had blessed them with the
    gift of martyrdom.

    1F) Can you quote a verse for us that says,
    in the words of Christ, Peter, John, Paul,
    whoever, "After that tribulation I will gather my church."?

    No. But i have a concordance.
    Want me to look it up?

    20) You said you've been studying the Word for 50 years.
    Did you arrive at pre-trib on your own,
    or did you first discover it in the writings
    of Lindsay/Pentecost/Kirban/Scofield/Ryrie/LaHaye/Walvoord/Larkin, et.al.?

    None of the above.
    The minister at the church where i was saved
    taught a pretribulation rapture/resurrection.
    I was 8-years-old. I believed what he said.
    After that i read the Bible. Never did find
    anthing in the Bible contradicting the Pretribulation

    Nice questions, Brother /1998 name suppressed/.
    And your answers are?
    Note that i will probably not respond to your answers
    unless i feel i will have something of encouragement
    to add an ongoing discussion.