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#2 How could a person who sees the words 'go up' process them to be instructing them to 'go down'?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Alan Gross, Dec 23, 2023.

  1. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    As an example, for our day and times,

    "For 117 years of its existence the Southern Baptist Convention
    had no article of faith about the universal, invisible church.

    "In the 1950s and 1960s the liberals ceased power,
    and in 1962 a revised confession was adopted which said:

    "The New Testament speaks also of the church
    as the body of Christ which includes all the redeemed of all ages" (Article VI)."

    In Search of the Universal Invisible Church - Baptist Because

    Why the change?

    God's instructions on How He is to be Worshipped
    in The Era of the New Testament Age
    are contained within His revealed Words,
    specifically and absolutely dependant on the God given ability
    to hear His Word, as He gave it.

    For example, if men were to take it upon themselves
    to change God's Word into a lie,
    by changing the words, "go down", into the words, "go up",

    How could a person who now sees these words 'go up'
    process them to be instructing them to "go down"?

    If someone were to change the words, "Go down to the white circle",
    in their mind, or by whatever process, to be the exact opposite in meaning and receive those words in a way that they now think that
    it is instructing them to, "Go up to the black square",

    when is it that they could ever be rationally expected to
    ,
    "
    Go down to the white circle"?

    Worse yet, if men were take Words given by God
    and lift them out of the Bible and make changes to them
    which utterly deny
    and completely contradict His Teaching on
    How He is to be Worshipped all during the New Testament Age

    then replace His Words in the Bible with the words of men,
    which have an exact opposite meaning to what God has revealed,

    how could anyone rationally expect that they could still fully
    discern
    and conceive of what God had provided in writing,
    as their instructions from Him,
    on how He is pleased to be Worshipped?

    His Words have now been changed, which disenfranchises
    and disassociates its readers, of what are now man's words,
    from any possibility of perceiving and receiving the message
    and instructions that God had Commanded.

    Does:
    "The Religion and Doctrine of Denying
    and Contridicting God's Word, to please Him",
    sound sane to you?

    Then, maybe we should leave God's Words where we found them

    and not expect that changing them is within the realm of sanity.

    "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times,"


    That is now.

    Today.

    "some shall depart from the faith,


    "The faith", which has been recorded by God in His instructions
    on How He is to be Worshipped and have been circumvented,
    and usurped by man, in their departure from "the faith",


    "giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils".

    Changing God's Word and the rejection
    of what He says pleases Him
    is the result of men,
    "giving heed to seducing spirits",


    and has now become the revelation of what pleases the devil?
    "and doctrines of devils".


    Trafficking in the doctrines of devils is devil worship.

    Spiritual adultery.

    Could our Age of demonstrable Christian Apostasy
    be the result of devil worship?

    Then, why do you say, "all saved souls are members of the Church"?

    Where did that "Church" come from?

    Who invented it?

    Who is worshipped in that "Church"?

    Again, where did it come from?

    Why did the Southern Baptist Convention
    suddenly change its Articles, after 117 years to read,

    "The New Testament speaks also of the church

    as the body of Christ which includes all the redeemed of all ages."

    Really? After 117 years?

    What were their best known Bible believing saints
    doing those first 117 years?

    Being stupid? Where they Illiterate?

    Where they all blind to some of the most important
    teachings of God?

    Teachings by God concerning His Worship
    that are Most Precious to Him?

    Or were the ones that came after them,
    "giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils".


     
  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    It isn't SBC doctrine at issue.

    The SBC is a convention of churches. It does not prescribe doctrine, but it does set forth standards by which churches can join the convention of churches.

    Many things are not addressed by the SBC statement of faith.

    We also have to separate the SBC SoF from resolutions (the SoF addresses topics that may be controversial but establish the bounds on f membership, resolutions are just statements affirmed at a given convention and do not necessarily declare a view of all churches within the convention).

    Unlike a denomination the SBC does not establish or prescribe doctrine for a church.


    Hope that helps.
     
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  3. MrW

    MrW Well-Known Member

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    I understand the church to be the spiritual Body of Christ, not Old Testament saints.
     
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  4. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Not sure how the Holy Spirit could have made it any clearer:
    Christ is head of the church
    He is the Savior of the body
    He is the head of the body, the church,
    His body, which is the church
    Eph_5:23, Col_1:18, Col_1:24

    A church is a local congregation but His church / His body is all believers in the one true God wherever they may be.
     
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  5. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    How does the theory follow along,
    for the people who are said by Protestantism to be "saved"
    when "they are Spirit baptized into one body",
    when it comes to folks in the Old Testament?

    Weren't they supposed to be saved, too, somehow?

    By a "sacrifice baptism", or "Tabernacle baptism",
    or "a circumcision baptism"?

    Those are just my smart aleck knee jerk reactions
    that swirl around in my head.

    But, what is the thinking supposed to be on that?

    Do you know?


     
  6. MrW

    MrW Well-Known Member

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    *****
    I do not and have not lived under the Old Testament, nor has anyone else alive today.

    HOWEVER God saved THEM does NOT apply today. Today, the lost sinner must receive Christ.

    Romans 3:23; 6:23; Hebrews 9:27; Ephesians 2:8-10; John 1:11-13; 14:6; Acts 2:21; 4:12; 10:43; 16:31.

    When he or she does, 1 Corinthians 12:13 becomes operative, resulting in 2 Corinthians 5:17 and they become a member of the Body of Christ.
     
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  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I believe it was by faith (faith in the Promise to come and then faith in the Promise that has come).
     
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  8. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
    Heb 11:2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.

    By faith Abel
    By faith Enoch
    By faith Noah
    By faith Abraham
    By faith Sarah

    Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

    The word of God can answer your question @Alan Gross
     
  9. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    "The Covenant of Grace was a compact in Eternity,
    between the Three Divine Persons, Father, Son, and Spirit;
    in which each Person agreed to take His part
    in the Economy of man’s Salvation.

    "The Covenant of Grace is one and the same in all ages,
    of which Jesus Christ is the Substance;

    Jesus was given for “a Covenant of the people”, of all the people of God,
    both Jews and Gentiles,
    Who is “the same” in the “yesterday” of the Old Testament,
    and in the “today” of the New Testament, and “forever”;

    Jesus is “the way, the truth, and the life”, the only True Way to Eternal Life;
    and there never was any other way made known to men
    since the fall of Adam;

    No other Name under Heaven has been given, or will be given,
    by which men can be saved.

    The Patriarchs before the flood and after,
    before the law of Moses and under it,
    before the coming of Christ, and all the saints since,
    are saved in one and the same way,
    even “by the Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ”;

    The Eternal Covenant of Grace is one Covenant, however,
    there are different Administrations of The Covenant of Grace,

    particularly two distinct Administrations,
    one "Old" Covenant before the coming of Christ,
    and the other New Covenant after the coming of Christ.

    These two different Administrations of the one Eternal Covenant of Grace
    lay the foundation for the distinction between the “
    First” and “Second” Covenants,
    or the
    “Old” and the “New” Covenant,
    observed by the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews.
    (
    Heb. 8:7, 8, 13; 9:1, 15; 12:24),

    The First Covenant we commonly call the Old Testament Times,
    and the other the New Testament Age,
    for which there seems to be some foundation in 2 Corinthians 3:6, 14
    and Hebrews 9:15 where these two Covenants,
    or rather the two Administrations of one
    and the same Eternal Covenant of Grace
    are allegorically represented by two women, Hagar and Sarah,
    the bondwoman and the free (
    Gal. 4:22-26),
    which fitly describe the nature and difference of those two Administrations.

    I will just point out the Agreement between those two Administrations
    of the one Eternal Covenant of Grace.

    1. First, The Agreement there is
    between the two Administrations of the one Eternal Covenant of Grace.


    1a. They agree in their Efficient Cause, God:
    The Covenant of Grace,
    in its original constitution in Eternity, is of God,
    and therefore it is called His Covenant, being made by Him;

    I have made a covenant—My covenant I will not break”, (Ps 89:3, 34)

    and whenever any Exhibition or Manifestation of this Covenant
    is said to be made with any of the Patriarchs, as to Abraham, David, etc.
    it is ascribed to God,

    “I will make My covenant—He hath made with me an everlasting covenant
    (
    Gen. 17:2; 2 Sam. 23:5),

    so the New Covenant, or New Administration of the Covenant of Grace,
    runs in this form,
    “I will make a new covenant”, etc (Heb. 8:8).

    1b. In the Moving Cause, the Sovereign Mercy, and Free Grace of God,

    which moved God to make the Covenant of Grace at first (Ps. 89:2, 3).

    And every Exhibition of the Eternal Covenant of Grace,
    under the former Old Testament Age,
    is a rich display of it, and therefore it is called,
    the
    “mercy promised to the fathers” in His “holy covenant” (Luke 1:72),

    and which has so largely appeared in the coming of Christ,
    which is ascribed to
    “the tender mercy of our God”,
    that “
    grace” and “truth”, in the great abundance of them,
    are said to come by Him; by which names the Covenant of Grace,
    under the New Testament Gospel Age, is called,
    in distinction from that under the Mosaic one (
    Luke 1:78; John 1:17).

    1c. In the Mediator, who is Christ;
    there is but one Mediator of the Covenant of Grace,
    let it be considered under what Age it will; even Christ,

    who under the former Old Testament Era
    was revealed as the seed of the woman that should bruise the serpent’s head,
    and make Atonement by His sufferings and death,
    signified by the expiatory sacrifices, under the law;
    the Shiloh, the peaceable One, and the Peace Maker,
    the Living Redeemer of Job, and of all believers under the Old Testament.

    (Moses, indeed, was a Mediator, but he was only a typical one.)

    There is but
    “one Mediator between God and man, the Man Christ Jesus”;
    there never was any other, and He is the “Mediator of the new covenant”
    (1 Tim. 2:5; Heb 12:24).

    1d. In the subjects of these Covenants, or Administrations
    of the Covenants of Grace, the Elect of God,

    to whom the blessings of it are applied.

    It was with the chosen people of God in Christ,
    that the Covenant of Grace was originally made;
    and according to the Election of Grace all of the Spiritual Blessings
    of Covenant of Grace are dispensed to the children of men.
    (
    Ps. 89:3; Eph 1:3,4).

    next: The Spiritual Blessings of The Covenant of Grace are the same,
    that are given to The Old Testament saints and The New Testament saints.

     
    #9 Alan Gross, Jan 18, 2024
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2024
  10. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    adapted from: The Body of Divinity, by John Gill.

    THE MANIFESTATION AND ADMINISTRATIONS

    of THE ETERNAL COVENANT of GRACE
    in THE OLD TESTAMENT and THE NEW TESTAMENT.
    John Gill: Doctrinal Divinity - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

    1e. The Spiritual Blessings of The Eternal Covenant of Grace
    that are given to The Old Testament saints and The New Testament saints.

    are the same under both The Old and New Testament Administrations.

    Salvation and Redemption by the Jesus Christ
    is the great blessing held forth and enjoyed under the Old Testament

    as well as under the New Testament (2 Sam. 23:5; Heb 9:15).

    Justification by the Righteousness of Christ,
    which the Old Testament believers had knowledge of, and Faith in,
    as well as in the New Testament (
    Isa. 45:24, 25; Rom. 3:21-23).

    Forgiveness of sin through Faith in Christ,
    all the Prophets bore witness to; and the saints of Old,
    as now, in the New
    had as comfortable an application of it
    (
    Ps. 32:1, 5; Isa. 43:25; Micah 7:18; Acts 10:43).

    Regeneration, Spiritual Circumcision, and Sanctification,
    were what men were made partakers of under the First,
    as under the Second Administration of the Eternal Covenant of Grace,
    (
    Deut. 30:6; Phil. 3:3).

    Eternal Life was made known in the writings of the Old Testament,
    as well as in those of the New Testament;
    and was believed, looked for, and expected by the saints of the former Era,
    as of those saints in the latter New Testament Church Age,
    (
    John 5:39; Heb. 11:10, 16; Job 19:26, 27).

    In a word, they and we eat the same Spiritual Meat,
    and drink the same Spiritual Drink,
    for they drank of that Rock that followed them,
    and that Rock was Christ,

    (1 Cor. 10:3, 4).
     
    #10 Alan Gross, Jan 18, 2024
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2024
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