1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Abraham’s Faith

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by MrW, Feb 9, 2024.

  1. MrW

    MrW Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2020
    Messages:
    1,131
    Likes Received:
    136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Abraham’s faith was counted TO HIM for righteousness. Abraham was seen as righteous because he believed God.

    My money is counted to me for wealth, therefore, I am rich because I possess money, but the money isn’t rich, it is what made ME wealthy in the eyes of those with less.

    Abraham’s faith made HIM righteous in the sight of God.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    5,374
    Likes Received:
    449
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I think we need to try to go with, "faith" is "the gift of God"
    Given and Granted to the "ungodly" that God justified (the ungodly)
    in the New Birth, when the Holy Spirit Regenerated the soul
    And "Quickens" them with Eternal Life.

    The "Gospel was preached unto Abraham" and it is The Word of The Lord
    that has come to Abraham, convicted him that he was ungodly
    and then the Holy Spirit Saved his soul in the New Birth, as above,
    Giving him Repentance of his sin and Faith in Jesus.

    Now ....as preachers say... the Source of Abraham's righteousness
    was in the Object of the Faith that was Given him and that Object was Jesus.

    It was Jesus' Righteousness that He Lived Out Perfectly under God's Law
    THAT WAS GIVEN, OR IMPUTED, OR CREDITED TO ABRAHAM.

    JESUS' RIGHTEOUSNESS DID BECOME ABRAHAM'S RIGHTEOUSNESS, THEN,
    AND GOD SAW HIS 'SLATE' WIPED CLEAN OF ALL SIN AND JUSTIFIED HIM.

    Abraham "believed in Him Who JUSTIFIES THE UNGODLY,"
    "WHOM HE CALLS THEM HE ALSO JUSTIFIES".


    Thus, we have, 1.) the ungodly Abraham,
    2.) hears the Gospel message preached,
    3.) he is Given Conviction of his sin,
    4.) The Holy Spirit Grants him Repentance and Faith to Believe in Jesus,
    5.) That is the New Spiritual Regeneration Birth from Above,
    6.) Abraham's sin is Pardoned,
    7.) Abraham had the Righteousness of the Object of his Faith, Jesus'
    Imputed/Given/Credited to him,
    which now becomes Abraham's Righteousness,
    8.) God sees Abraham as being Righteous now, with no sin and...?
    Justifies the ungodly.

    So, it wasn't 'faith' or 'Righteousness' inherit
    or originating with Abraham;
    they were both Gifts Given in Abraham's Experience of Eternal Salvation.

    That should be every Saved soul's Experience of Eternal Salvation,
    once it's sorted out right, and learned about, with and by the Book.

    I think you'll find the scriptures here:
    Chapter 11- Justification - Founders Ministries
     
    #2 Alan Gross, Feb 13, 2024
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2024
  3. MrW

    MrW Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2020
    Messages:
    1,131
    Likes Received:
    136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Faith is not the gift of God. “Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.” Romans 10:17.

    “…the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Romans 6:23b.
     
  4. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2020
    Messages:
    2,351
    Likes Received:
    194
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Whoa!!! This could be one of the greatest deceptions of all time.
     
  5. MrW

    MrW Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2020
    Messages:
    1,131
    Likes Received:
    136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I will go with the Holy Bible, quoted in #3.
     
  6. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    5,374
    Likes Received:
    449
    Faith:
    Baptist
    WHAT ABOUT THAT? MAKES YOU THINK, DOESN'T IT? (sorry caps)

    Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers:

    (1 b.) Ephesians 2:8-10
    (taking up and working out the parenthetical
    “by grace ye are saved” of
    Ephesians 2:5)
    form an instructive link of connection between these Epistles
    and those of the earlier group, especially the Epistles to the Galatians
    and Romans. (Comp. Philippians 3:9.)

    "In both there is the same doctrine of “Justification by Faith,”
    the same denial of the merit of good works,
    the same connection of
    "good works with the grace of God in us."


    "The two phrases—“justification by faith” and “salvation by grace”
    —are popularly identified, and, indeed are substantially identical in meaning.

    "Grace is the moving cause of salvation:
    faith is only the instrument by which it is laid hold of.


    "And that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
    This attribution of all to the gift of God
    seems to cover the whole idea—
    both the gift of salvation and the gift of faith to accept it.

    "The former part is enforced by the words
    “not of works,”
    the latter by the declaration,
    “we (and all that is in us) are His workmanship.”

    "The word here rendered “gift” is peculiar to this passage;
    the word employed in Romans 5:15-16; Romans 6:23,
    for “free gift” (charisma) having been appropriated
    (both in the singular and plural) to special “gifts” of grace."
    ...

    Large, large, highly detailed handling:

    Is Faith God's Gift? (10) (Ephesians 2:8-9): The Grammatical Issues.

    "...I have looked at the testimony of nine ancient exegetes—I do not like to call them ‘fathers’ or their study ‘patristics’ (Matt 23:9), but ‘Christians’, ‘churchmen’, ‘exegetes’, ‘scholars’, ‘experts’—concerning whether those familiar with Greek took the referent of the neuter demonstrative τοῦτο (‘this’) in Ephesians 2:8 as the preceding feminine noun in the genitive πίστις (‘faith’), located two words before, in spite of the fact that these two words do not agree in gender.

    "I found that eight of the nine were demonstrably familiar with Greek grammar, none of the nine say that feminine nouns cannot be the antecedent to a neuter demonstrative, eight of the nine took the antecedent of the neuter demonstrative as a feminine noun, seven of the nine took the antecedent to be πίστις (‘faith’, a feminine noun), one of the nine took the antecedent to be χάρις (‘grace’, also a feminine noun), one of the nine took the antecedent to be χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι (the conceptual ‘salvation by grace’),

    "and another one of the nine suggested that the conceptual ‘salvation by grace’ is a second and alternative interpretation after giving a first interpretation of ‘faith’ as the antecedent. As far as I know, these 9 are the extant commentators on this passage of Scripture who have applied their mind to this question arising from the passage.[1] All of this justifies Abraham Kuyper’s assertion that:

    "Nearly all the church fathers and almost all the theologians eminent for Greek scholarship judged that the words “it is the gift of God” refer to faith.

    1. This was the exegesis, according to the ancient tradition […]

    2. Of those who spoke the Greek language and were familiar with the peculiar Greek construction.

    3. Of the Latin church fathers, who maintained close contact with the Greek world.[2]

    "These facts seem to suggest that the onus rests on those who say that such an understanding is grammatically incorrect to show it to be so, rather than merely assert what all who can read the Greek text can see—that the demonstrative and the preceding nouns do not agree in gender—and then think that the work of exegesis is done. The key text is Ephesians 2:8-10.

    "8 For [it is] by grace[3] you[4] have been saved[5] through faith[6], and this [thing][7] [is] not from you[8], [it is] the gift[9] of God, 9 not from works, so that no-one may boast. 10 For we are his handiwork, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, so that in them we might walk. (my translation)

    "8Τῇ γὰρ χάριτί[10] ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι[11] διὰ πίστεως[12]· καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν, θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον· 9 οὐκ ἐξ ἔργων, ἵνα μή τις καυχήσηται[13]. 10 αὐτοῦ γάρ ἐσμεν ποίημα, κτισθέντες ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ ἐπὶ ἔργοις ἀγαθοῖς οἷς προητοίμασεν ὁ θεός, ἵνα ἐν αὐτοῖς περιπατήσωμεν.[14]

    "This paper argues that it is not only an ancient exegetical view that the referent of ‘this’ (τοῦτο) in Ephesians 2:8-9 is ‘faith’ (πίστεως), even though they do not agree in gender and therefore faith is both οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν (‘not from ourselves’), and θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον·(‘the gift of God’), and it is also οὐκ ἐξ ἔργων, ἵνα μή τις καυχήσηται (‘not from works so that no one can boast’), but also that this ancient exegetical view is quite acceptable in terms of what we know about ancient Greek grammar.

    "Moreover, in this paper, I seek to do more than just show the evidence for the existence of such a rule from the fact of the ancient Greek and Latin exegetes approach to interpreting Ephesians 2:8-9. Here I want to find, in relation to the Greek demonstratives, a statement of the syntactical rule together with positive examples that illustrate the rule in other literature, preferably the New Testament, or in the LXX, or other Greek literature.

    "To put the matter another way, finding similar constructions in Greek literature prior to and contemporaneous with the writing of the New Testament is evidence that the demonstrative can refer back to an antecedent of a different gender.

    "The majority of ancient exegetical opinion concerning Ephesians 2:8-9 is evidence that the construction does mean what it can mean."

    con't
     
    #6 Alan Gross, Feb 13, 2024
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2024
  7. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    5,374
    Likes Received:
    449
    Faith:
    Baptist

    from:

    Meyer's NT Commentary
    Ephesians chapter 2.


    (Note: I just put this reference here, because I wanted to say,
    the "asyndetic juxtaposition"....(it's in the last sentence.)


    Ephesians 2:8;

    "For by grace are ye saved through faith;

    and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

    "καὶ τοῦτο is referred by the Fathers in Suicer, Thes. II. p. 728,
    Erasmus, Beza, Grotius, Estius, Wolf, Bengel, Michaelis,
    and others, including Koppe, Rosenmüller, Flatt, Meier,
    Baumgarten-Crusius, Bisping,
    to the faith (τὸ πιστεύειν), comp. Php 1:29; 2 Corinthians 4:14.

    "In that case καὶ τοῦτο … δῶρον would have to be taken parenthetically.

    "But how violent is this taking to pieces of the text, since οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν and οὐκ ἐξ ἔργων present themselves in a manner alike natural and weighty as elements belonging to one flow of the discourse!
    Rightly, therefore, have Calvin, Calovius, Baumgarten, Semler, Zachariae, Morus, and others, including Rückert, Matthies, Holzhausen, Harless, de Wette, Schenkel, Bleek, referred it to the salvation just designated as regards its specific mode. Paul very earnestly and emphatically enters into more detailed explanations as to what he had just said, τῇ γὰρ χάριτι κ.τ.λ., namely to the effect, that he briefly and forcibly places in the light of the respective contrasts,

    "first, that objective element of the saving deliverance
    which has taken place (τῇ χάριτι) by οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν, Θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον,

    "and then the subjective element (διὰ τῆς πίστεως),
    by οὐκ ἐξ ἔργων ἵνα μ. τ. καυχ.


    His thought is:

    “Through grace you are in possession of salvation by means of faith,
    and that to the exclusion of your own causation and operative agency.”


    "This latter he expresses with the vivacity and force of contrast thus:

    “and that (καὶ τοῦτο, see on Romans 3:11) "not from you,
    it is God’s gift; not from works, in order that no one may boast.”


    "The asyndetic juxtaposition
    takes place with a “propria quadam vi,
    alacritate, gravitate,” Dissen, Exc. II. ad Pind. p. 273."
     
    #7 Alan Gross, Feb 13, 2024
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2024
  8. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    5,374
    Likes Received:
    449
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Faith comes by hearing, when Faith is Given as a Gift, in The New Birth.

    That's for sure.

    "the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord".
    ...

    from: John Gill: Body of Practical Divinity - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

    "However, that is truly evangelical repentance
    which has with it faith in the blood of Christ
    for the remission of sins;


    "because repentance and remission of sins,
    as they go together as doctrines, so also as blessings of grace;


    Luke 24:47; "And that repentance and remission of sins
    should be preached in his name among all nations,
    beginning at Jerusalem."


    Acts 5:31; "Him hath God exalted with his right hand
    to be a Prince and a Saviour,
    for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins."


    "...because where true repentance for sin is,
    there must be faith in Christ for the remission of it
    ,
    at least hope of pardon by his blood, or else such repentance
    would issue in despair, and appear to be no other than
    the sorrow of the world which worketh death."

    from: John Gill: Body of Practical Divinity - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

    "Faith is another branch of inward experimental religion and godliness,
    for “with the heart man believeth unto righteousness”;

    "and of internal worship, and without which external worship
    cannot be performed in a manner acceptable to God,

    "for “without faith it is impossible to please him”:
    there is no drawing nigh to God in any part of worship without it;

    "if a man prays to God he must “ask in faith, nothing doubting”;
    ...

    from: John Gill: Body of Practical Divinity - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

    Faith "is sometimes used for the doctrine of the gospel, the word of faith,
    which the apostle preached, though he once destroyed it
    as much as in him lay (Gal. 1:23),

    "and is the faith once delivered to the saints,
    which they should earnestly contend for,
    and build up one another in (Jude 1:3, 20), so called,

    "because it contains things to be believed upon the credit
    and testimony of God;

    "and because Faith directs to the Great Object of Faith in Salvation,
    the Lord Jesus Christ;

    "and because it is the means of ingenerating
    and increasing faith in men,
    for
    “faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God”
    (Rom. 10:8, 17).
    ...

    from: John Gill: Body of Practical Divinity - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

    "But the fruit of the Spirit is ..., faith", Galatians 5:22.

    JESUS CHRIST IS CALLED, "THE GIFT OF GOD",
    in John 4:10,

    "Christ is received as a Free Gift;

    "Jesus is the Gift of God;

    “if thou knewest the Gift of God
    (John 4:10),


    "and an unspeakable Gift of His love He is,

    "a Gift Freely Given and Unmerited;

    (ever seen this one?)

    “God so loved the world that He Gave His Only Begotten Son
    (John 3:16),

    &

    “to us a Son is Given

    "and Jesus is received and owned as such;

    “to us a Son is Given
    (Isa. 9:6),

    "and all blessings of Grace are Given, and Freely Given,
    along with Him
    ,

    and received as such; Rom. 8:32;

    "He that spared not His Own Son, but delivered Him up for us all,
    how shall He not with Him also Freely Give us all things?"

    ...
     
  9. MrW

    MrW Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2020
    Messages:
    1,131
    Likes Received:
    136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    My concern is Scripture, not Gill.
     
  10. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    5,374
    Likes Received:
    449
    Faith:
    Baptist
    That's as much a contridiction as your other statements.

    Be concerned with scripture though. Yeah.
     
Loading...