1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Acts 13:48

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by RipponRedeaux, Jul 14, 2023.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. RipponRedeaux

    RipponRedeaux Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2019
    Messages:
    2,094
    Likes Received:
    302
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Now there is no doubt that Luke calls those who were elected by the free adoption of God. For it is a ridiculous cavil to make this refer to the attitude of believers, as if those who had the proper disposition of mind received the Gospel. For this particular ordaining can only be understood of the eternal purpose of God. And Luke does not say that they were ordained to faith, but to life, because God predestines His own to the inheritance of eternal life. On the other hand this verse teaches that faith depends on the election of God. And since the whole human race is blind and obstinate, those faults certainly remain fixed in our nature until they are corrected by the grace of the Spirit; but the correction flows only from the fountain of election. For of two men who hear the same teaching together, the one proves himself docile, while the other persists in his ill-will; yet that does not happen because they differ in nature, but because God enlightens the former and does not think the latter worthy of the same grace. We are certainly made sons of God by faith (Gal. 3:26), and faith, so far as we are concerned, is the door and commencement of salvation. But there is a profounder consideration as far as God is concerned; for He does not begin to choose us after we have believed; but he seals His adoption, which was hidden, by the gift of faith in our hearts, so that it may be plain and sure. For if it is the particular property of the sons of God alone to be His disciples, it follows that it does not apply to all the sons of Adam without distinction, do not receive the Gospel, because, even if the Heavenly Father calls all men to faith by the external voice of a man, yet he calls effectually by His Spirit only those whom He has determined to save. Now if God's election, by which he ordains us to life, is the cause of faith and salvation, the result is that no room is left for worthiness or merits. Let us therefore grasp what Luke says, that those, who have been engrafted into the Body of Christ by faith, and receive the earnest and pledge of their adoption in Christ, were previously ordained to life. [Calvin's New Testament Commentaries --The Acts Of The Apostles Vol. 1, page 393]
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  2. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    6,561
    Likes Received:
    507
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Act_13:48. And when the Gentiles heard this — That such things had been prophesied concerning them many ages ago, and that the way was now open for their admission into covenant with the true God, and that the Lord Jesus had commanded his apostles to receive them into his church, and to admit them to all the benefits of the Messiah’s kingdom, without subjecting them to the law of Moses; they were glad — And well they might be so, for they had now the door of faith set wide open to them; and glorified the word of the Lord — Which had invited them to share in all the blessings of his grace, and brought to them the knowledge of salvation. And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed — From this expression some infer, that God’s ordination, or decree, is the sole or principal cause of men’s faith, and that he hath thereby fixed the number of those that shall believe, and whom he will finally save. But if so, consequently the want, or absence, of such ordination or decree, in behalf of others, is the sole or principal reason of their unbelief; and by God withholding it, he has fixed the number of those that shall not believe, and so shall finally perish. For if the reason why these persons believed was only, or chiefly this, that they were ordained to believe, and obtain eternal life, then the reason why the rest believed not must be only, or chiefly this, that they were not so ordained by God. And, if so, what necessity could there be, that the word of God should first be preached to them, Act_13:46. Was it only that their damnation might be greater? This seems to charge that lover of souls, whose tender mercies are over all his works, with the greatest cruelty, as it makes him determine from all eternity, not only that so many souls, as capable of salvation as any others, shall perish everlastingly, but also that the dispensations of his providence shall be such toward them, as shall necessarily tend to the aggravation of their condemnation. And what could even their most malicious enemy do more? What is it that Satan himself aims at by all his temptations, but the aggravation of the future punishment of sinners? Therefore, to assert that God had determined his word should be spoken to these Jews for this very end, (which assertion must follow from such an interpretation of the text,) is to make God more instrumental to their ruin than even the devil himself; and is certainly wholly irreconcilable with his declarations, that he is not willing any should perish, but would have all men to be saved. Further, the apostle gives this reason, why he turned from the Jews to the Gentiles, that the Jews had thrust the word of God from them, and judged themselves unworthy of eternal life, Act_13:46; whereas, according to this doctrine, this could be no sufficient reason of his turning from them to the Gentiles; for it was only they among the Jews whom God had not ordained to eternal life, who thus refused to believe, and obey the word of God. And as many among the Gentiles as were not thus ordained must necessarily do the same; and so there could be no sufficient reason why he should turn to the Gentiles on that account. Once more, “If as many as [in that assembly] were ordained to eternal life, believed under that sermon of Paul, [when almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God,] it follows, that all who believed not then were eternally shut up in unbelief: and that all the elect believed at once; that they who do not believe at one time, shall not believe at another; and that when Paul returned to Antioch, few souls, if any, could be converted by his ministry; God having at once taken as many as were ordained to eternal life, and left all the rest to Satan.” — Fletcher. [Joseph Benson's Commentary Act 13:48] {emphasis in the original text}
     
  3. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    19,678
    Likes Received:
    2,909
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
    48. when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad—to perceive that their accession to Christ was a matter of divine arrangement as well as apostolic effort.
    and glorified the word of the Lord—by a cordial reception of it.

    and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed—a very remarkable statement, which cannot, without force, be interpreted of anything lower than this, that a divine ordination to eternal life is the cause, not the effect, of any man's believing.
     
    • Winner Winner x 3
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  4. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    19,678
    Likes Received:
    2,909
    Faith:
    Baptist
    12 But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name:
    13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Jn 1
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    6,561
    Likes Received:
    507
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Acts 13:48
    48. τεταγμένοι] The meaning of this word must be determined by the context. The Jews had judged themselves unworthy of eternal life: the Gentiles, as many as were disposed to eternal life, believed. By whom so disposed, is not here declared: nor need the word be in this place further particularized. We know, that it is GOD who worketh in us the will to believe, and that the preparation of the heart is of Him: but to find in this text pre-ordination to life asserted, is to force both the word and the context to a meaning which they do not contain. Henry Alford's The Greek Testament

    As many as were ordained to eternal life (hosoi ēsan tetagmenoi eis zōēn aiōnion). Periphrastic past perfect passive indicative of tassō, a military term to place in orderly arrangement. The word “ordain” is not the best translation here. “Appointed,” as Hackett shows, is better. The Jews here had voluntarily rejected the word of God. On the other side were those Gentiles who gladly accepted what the Jews had rejected, not all the Gentiles. Why these Gentiles here ranged themselves on God’s side as opposed to the Jews Luke does not tell us. This verse does not solve the vexed problem of divine sovereignty and human free agency. There is no evidence that Luke had in mind an absolutum decretum of personal salvation. Paul had shown that God’s plan extended to and included Gentiles. Certainly the Spirit of God does move upon the human heart to which some respond, as here, while others push him away.

    Believed (episteusan). Summary or constative first aorist active indicative of pisteuō. The subject of this verb is the relative clause. By no manner of legerdemain can it be made to mean “those who believe were appointed.” It was saving faith that was exercised only by those who were appointed unto eternal life, who were ranged on the side of eternal life, who were thus revealed as the subjects of God’s grace by the stand that they took on this day for the Lord. It was a great day for the kingdom of God. Word Pictures in the New Testament (A. T. Robertson)

     
  6. RipponRedeaux

    RipponRedeaux Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2019
    Messages:
    2,094
    Likes Received:
    302
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Continuing Calvin's remarks on this significant verse :

    From this we also gather what effect the preaching of the Gospel has by itself. For it does not find faith in men until God inwardly calls those whom He has chosen, and draws to Christ those who were previously His own. At the same time Luke teaches by these words that it is not possible for any one of the elect to perish. For he says, not that one or a few of the elect believed, but as many as were chosen. For although we may know nothing about God's adoption until we grasp it by faith, yet there is no dubiety or hesitation about it in His secret purpose; because all whom He has for His own He entrusts to the protection or care of His Son, who will remain a faithful Guardian right to the end. (pages 393,394)
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  7. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    6,561
    Likes Received:
    507
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I agree with you KY. Those that believed were the ones God, by His grace, saved. That is what the bible teaches. Hear the gospel, if you believe the message, God saves you.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    19,678
    Likes Received:
    2,909
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The passage is NOT saying that 'they chose of their will' to be born 'not of their own will'. That's ridiculous. Those perceiving and receiving Him were those that were born of God - born from above - ordained to eternal life.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  9. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    6,561
    Likes Received:
    507
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Since you quote Calvin then I have to conclude that you agree with what the logical outcome of his view entails.
    For if the reason why these persons believed was only, or chiefly this, that they were ordained to believe, and obtain eternal life, then the reason why the rest believed not must be only, or chiefly this, that they were not so ordained by God. And, if so, what necessity could there be, that the word of God should first be preached to them, Act_13:46. Joseph Benson's Commentary

    But the logical outcome of Calvin's view runs counter to the bible and the stated view of God.
    1Ti 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
    1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

    So Calvin's view must be in error and this aside from the fact his view view does not fit with the context.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. RipponRedeaux

    RipponRedeaux Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2019
    Messages:
    2,094
    Likes Received:
    302
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Every artifice of human ingenuity has been employed to blunt the sharp edge of this scripture and to explain away the obvious meaning of these words, but it has been employed in vain, though nothing will ever be able to reconcile this and similar passages to the mind of the natural man. 'As many as were ordained to eternal life, believed.' Here we learn four things: First, that believing is the consequence and not the cause of God's decree. Second, that a limited number only are 'ordained to eternal life,' for if all men without exception were thus ordained by God, then the words 'as many as' are a meaningless qualification. Third, that this 'ordination' of God is not to mere external privileges but to 'eternal life,' not to service but to salvation itself. Fourth, that all ---'as many as,' not one less -- who are thus ordained by God to eternal life will most certainly believe. [ Taken from page 63 of A.W. Pink's classic The Sovereignty Of God]
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    6,561
    Likes Received:
    507
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I did not say nor does the text say that in your words 'they chose of their will' to be born 'not of their own will' Man cannot and does not save himself. That is just a red herring comment on your part.

    What the text does say is that the people had to receive Him, trust in Him. God in response to their faith saves them. That is clear in the English and in the Greek.

    John even went so far as to tell us why he had written his gospel.
    Joh 20:31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.
     
  12. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    19,678
    Likes Received:
    2,909
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No it's not. And you know it. All you free willers believe receiving/accepting Christ is a choice made of your own free will. John 1:13 is a threefold denial of any human involvement in the heavenly birth. Acts 13:48 reiterates the truth that one must first be born from above before one can 'see' the kingdom of God.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  13. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    6,561
    Likes Received:
    507
    Faith:
    Baptist
    To quote Pink "Second, that a limited number only are 'ordained to eternal life,'" so we see that he as Calvin and logically you think that God is evil and duplicitous. God tells us He wants all to come to saving faith but then makes it impossible for them to trust in Him and according to Calvinist authors takes pleasure in condemning billions to hell for His glory. Calvinists have a strange view of God.
     
  14. RipponRedeaux

    RipponRedeaux Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2019
    Messages:
    2,094
    Likes Received:
    302
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You are attributing evil to God and that is an abomination.

    The Lord chose the elect for salvation. He did this before the foundation of the world. He did not 'choose' every single human being who has and shall live. The elect are a portion --a remnant of humanity given grace without a shred of merit by those so elected.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    6,561
    Likes Received:
    507
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Well if receiving and trusting in God is not from our free will as you say then the only other option is that God causes the vast majority of humanity not to believe. But the problem with your view is the the bible does not agree with you.
    Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
    God does not cause them to believe, the text does not support your view

    Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
    Man cannot and does not save himself, only God can save and He saves those that trust in Him.

    Why is it that Calvinists seem to overlook context so often.
    Act 13:46 Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, "It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.
    Act 13:47 "For so the Lord has commanded us, 'I HAVE PLACED YOU AS A LIGHT FOR THE GENTILES, THAT YOU MAY BRING SALVATION TO THE END OF THE EARTH.'"
    Act 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

    Notice the Jews rejected the gospel message while the gentiles accepted the message and believed. We see the same view expressed in Ephesians 1:13 and Romans 10:9-10, hear the message believe the message and God saves you.
     
  16. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    19,678
    Likes Received:
    2,909
    Faith:
    Baptist
    NOT!

    4 in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn upon them. 2 Cor 4
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  17. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    6,561
    Likes Received:
    507
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It is not me that is attributing evil to God it is your Calvinist theology as Calvin, Pink and many others have written.

    That you continue to deny clear scripture and instead trust in what some man tells you the bible says is telling.
    Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.

    Not chosen TO BE in Christ, but chosen in HIM {Christ} TO BE holy and blameless. The words "to be" are not in the original text at this point. However, they do appear at the end of verse 4, "to be holy", where Paul is answering the question, what did God choose us for? The answer is not “to be in him” but to be holy and blameless in his sight. The text does not discuss here how we come to be in Christ; it discusses what God chooses for those who are in Christ. The difference is of critical importance.

    We are elect because we believe in Christ Jesus not so that we will believe in Christ Jesus as Calvinists would have it. Salvation is conditional
    Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  18. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    6,561
    Likes Received:
    507
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Now from the free will perspective I can trust what the bible says. But you keep saying man has no free will so the only option is that God determines all things but you can not even hold to your stated position because you then say man has a free will.

    If Calvinism is true… Why does the devil need to fight to stop people from believing?
    If it is impossible for some men to believe and impossible for other men to not believe, as Calvinism teaches, why do we see Satan fighting so hard to get people off track?
    According to Calvinist doctrine, it wouldn’t matter if the gospel of Christ shined unto these nonbelievers or not—either way they will never get saved.
     
  19. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    19,678
    Likes Received:
    2,909
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Where?

    By 'free-willer' I mean synergist.

    Never said that either. I hold to 'overruling providence'.

    Where? Where did I 'state' this position?

    I think you just make stuff up to bloviate about. - or not adequately editing c & p from past posts.
     
  20. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    6,561
    Likes Received:
    507
    Faith:
    Baptist
    So you assign your own meaning to words "By 'free-willer' I mean synergist." "'overruling providence'." what ever that means if not determinism.

    "All you free willers believe receiving/accepting Christ is a choice made of your own free will."

    So no I do not make things up but it sure does look like you do. You try to dance around the truths of the bible so as to make them fit your errant theology. You have it backwards KY. Get your theology from the bible not what some man tells you the bible says.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...