1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Acts 17 and Total Inability

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by atpollard, Mar 9, 2021.

  1. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    5,896
    Likes Received:
    1,341
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Whatever "Calvinists" do is of no concern to me, George...
    I won't shrink from His sovereignty.
    He is King and I am not.
    I'm nothing more than a worthless subject that He decided to drag out of my own disaster by His own grace.

    Respectfully, I think that you'll find that I'm not going to do everything that the "Calvinists" do or believe everything that the followers of John Calvin believed and taught, just because he believed and taught it.

    For example, I have no problem admitting to "double predestination", also known as "sovereign reprobation".
    I have no trouble asking someone to prove, by Scripture, that infants "get a free pass" just because they are infants and that they somehow don't fall under the declarations of Romans 3:10-11, Romans 3:23, Ecclesiastes 7:20, John 3:3, John 3:18 and many others.

    I have no trouble stating that Jesus Christ died for the sins of His sheep ( the "world" as defined by Revelation 5:9, Revelation 7:9, Romans 9:24, 1 Corinthians 1:24 and many others ), and that His Father sent Him to die for them and them alone...contrary to what John Calvin taught in his "Institutes".
    I have no trouble disagreeing with "a-millennialism" because I don't see it taught anywhere in His word, nor do I see anything other than "believer's baptism" taught in the Scriptures.

    I also have no trouble defending the fact that God can do as He wishes, can allow something on one hand and cause something on another...
    and be perfectly just and righteous no matter what He does;

    And you or I don't have a single thing ( that would be worth His hearing ) to say about it.
     
    #61 Dave G, Mar 12, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2021
  2. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    5,896
    Likes Received:
    1,341
    Faith:
    Baptist
    " The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
    6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the Lord will abhor the bloody and deceitful man."
    ( Psalms 5:5-6 ).

    Who are the unrighteous, SBG?
    Those who are not in Christ.

    Who does the will of God?
    Those whom God has made new creatures in Christ.
    Who works iniquity in their hearts?
    Those whom the Lord has not made new creatures in Christ.

    Based on Him having the right to love and to hate, to have mercy and compassion on one and not another ( Romans 9:14-18, Exodus 33:19 ), and the righteous being so because of their being redeemed by the blood of the Lamb and because of His grace and mercy alone...
    Then the thin small line between God saving someone and God damning another to the fires of eternal torment... is what?

    His love for them.

    The example is "Jacob have a loved and Esau have I hated".
     
    #62 Dave G, Mar 12, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2021
    • Informative Informative x 1
  3. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2018
    Messages:
    4,651
    Likes Received:
    1,159
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I agree we are dead spiritually (Ephesians 2:1-3)
    I agree that all can hear God’s word (Romans 10:18)
    I do not agree that “we respond willfully to accept or reject” since I know of no scripture that makes that claim ... and many that contradict it (John 6:44 John 10:25-26 John 15:16)

    I see no scripture to support that God “CANNOT ALLOW” many to repent. I only see verses that nobody wants to approach God (John 3:20, Romans 3:10-12) and that many will be damned (Matthew 7:13-14).

    No, I have not read Piper (I prefer reading Scripture).
    I have no desire to accept any theory that requires getting past the actual words used in scripture.
    Can you understand why needing to get past scripture might raise some red flags?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. Dball65

    Dball65 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2021
    Messages:
    32
    Likes Received:
    1
    Faith:
    Baptist
    @atpollard

    On the first 2 quotes I think its clear where we do and do not agree.

    Voila! Perhaps I phrased it poorly earlier. 2 Wills seems to me an attempt to overcome these passages which make it tough for many, but not all, to accept TULIP.
    i.e. Luke 2
    9And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid. 10And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. 11For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, which is Christ the Lord.

    If we use the tulip shaped key to interpret this though...
    All means some and it is actually a terrible decree.
     
  5. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    10,306
    Likes Received:
    446
    Faith:
    Baptist
    why omit Psalm 106:40? this IS about God's own people, His ELECT!

    "Therefore the LORD's anger burned against His people, and He abhorred His own inheritance."

    the Hebrew word here is much stronger than that used in Malachi 1:3. here it means "to detest, abominate, despised, disgusted". This verse in Psalms renders the use of Malachi and Romans, in the "reformed" way, a non starter.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    5,896
    Likes Received:
    1,341
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Do you not see that David is speaking there of His chosen, physical nation of Israel, SBG?
    Those who had agreed to follow His commands when Moses gave them to those whom the Lord had delivered from Egypt ( Deuteronomy 29:2-29, Deuteronomy 30:1-20 )?
    I agree in the highlighted.
     
    #66 Dave G, Mar 13, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2021
  7. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    5,896
    Likes Received:
    1,341
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I disagree.
    It in no way renders what the Lord says about His spiritual people and how and why they are saved , a "non-starter".

    His physical people, the covenant nation of Israel, showed the evidence that they were not all of God ( born again ) by disobeying him time and again throughout their long history.
    They showed that they were, by and large, not saved by their lack of faith.
    If they would have been "of God" according to John 8:43-47, they would have believed Him and His words, obeyed Him and followed His commandments.


    The Lord Jesus told them this in no uncertain terms and on many occasions, for example in John 8:39.
    The fact that they, as a group, followed their corrupt hearts in disobedience, tells me that for the most part, the Lord never made them alive, in the spiritual sense.

    Therefore, God's purpose according to election ( Romans 11:1-6 ) stands...
    He is saving a remnant out of the nation of Israel just as He is saving a remnant out of every tongue, tribe and nation.
    Otherwise we would all be as Sodom and Gomorrah.:Sick

    Stated as clearly as possible:

    Those whom the Lord loves ( and who love Him ), He saves.
    Those whom the Lord Jesus came to die for ( Isaiah 53:8, Matthew 1:21, John 10:11 ), were given to Him by His Father ( John 6:37-40 ) to save ( John 17:2 ).
    Those whom the Lord hates ( and who hate Him as He is revealed in His word ), He casts into the Lake of Fire for their refusal to repent of their sins and their hatred of Him and His ways.
    He does not send to eternal torment anyone that He loves and who genuinely love and want to obey Him out of a sincere desire to please Him...
    Not to get out of going to Hell, but because they really care that they have offended their Best Friend.

    That is the reality of it.
     
    #67 Dave G, Mar 13, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2021
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    5,896
    Likes Received:
    1,341
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I'm sorry @SBG, but it seems to me that you're content in the belief that salvation is a result of one's actions...
    and not that one's actions towards the Lord are the result of Him saving them.

    In other words, you're conditioning salvation on belief, and not belief on salvation...
    Being one of Christ's sheep because of belief, and not belief because of a person being ( or not being ) one of His sheep ( John 10:26-29 ):

    " But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
    27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
    28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
    29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father’s hand.
    "

    Side note:
    He will never tell His sheep, whom He knows and who follow Him, that He never knew ( Matthew 7:21-23 ) them.

    God's word teaches that a person follows the Lord because they are a new creature in Christ...
    That he loved them even when they were dead in their trespasses and sins ( Ephesians 2:1-7 ).
    They don't go from being spiritually dead to spiritually alive by "making a decision" to follow Him.
    The Lord makes spiritually dead people alive, and they then decide to follow Him.

    Salvation by grace through faith...
    Not "of works", lest any man should boast.
    Life from the dead, my friend.

    Otherwise we stay in our sins, the deadness of our hearts and the vanity of our darkened minds and we never really and truly seek Him, much less His ways.
    Romans 3:10-18 and Ephesians 4:17-19 continues on and on and only He can break that cycle...

    So, if you love and trust in Him, it's because He first loved you ( 1 John 4:19 ) and made you a new creature in Christ.:)
    That is what it is to be saved by grace.

    This is my final reply in this thread.


    I wish you and all who read this God's blessings,
    and that your studies in His word may bear much fruit.
     
    #68 Dave G, Mar 13, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2021
    • Winner Winner x 2
  9. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2018
    Messages:
    4,651
    Likes Received:
    1,159
    Faith:
    Baptist
    All does mean some, unless you are somehow prepared to argue universal salvation and nobody goes to hell.

    How is the birth of the savior “good tidings of great joy” for a sinner burning in Hell?

    “All people” is significant because from Abram to that point, the “good news” of God’s forgiveness was only for the children of Israel. Read the OT prophets and the promises that the grace of God would be for all of the nations and not just Israel.
    • [Gen 18:18 NASB95] 18 since Abraham will surely become a great and mighty nation, and in him all the nations of the earth will be blessed?
    • [Gen 22:18 NASB95] 18 "In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice."
    • [Gen 26:4 NASB95] 4 "I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed;

    Honestly, just take the claims of TULIP one at a time (as stand alone statements) and see if scripture teaches them or refutes them. Start with P (Perseverance of the Saints) just to be different and tell me if scripture teaches assurance of salvation or fear of the loss of salvation. Gather all the verses and tell me what the Bible teaches. Then tell me if the P in TULIP is true or false.
     
    #69 atpollard, Mar 13, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2021
    • Useful Useful x 1
  10. Dball65

    Dball65 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2021
    Messages:
    32
    Likes Received:
    1
    Faith:
    Baptist
    tuP is as far I can go on TULIP. And as before stand by what I stated in earlier posts.

    On the subject of the t. We are fallen spiritually. But we can hear the Word physically. With the affirmation of the Holy Spirit we can accept or reject. John 3:14-21, Romans 10:8-11, Genesis 6:3

    As for the u. God elects some for special service. i.e John the Baptist who leapt in his mothers womb. Luke 1:41
    Paul on the road to Damascus. Acts 22:6-11 and the OT patriarchs, prophets, judges and kings.

    And P, Philippians 1:6, Hebrews 6:1-10 and others.

    If you assume I have not searched the Word of God then you are in error. 50+ years.
    I was raised in the fear and admonition of the Lord. I learned that rituals will not save.
    Through the preaching of God's quick and powerful word the Holy Spirit convicted me of sin.
    I humbly repented of my sin and asked the Lord Jesus to save me.
    By His Grace He became my Shepherd that night many years ago.
    I will follow Jesus all the days of life for He alone is Lord and He alone has the Words of Life.
    Colossians 2:1-15

    But I will always search the treasure house of His Word.
    And it is a joy to search with fellow believers.
     
  11. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    5,149
    Likes Received:
    293

    The kicker is those in Acts 17 who REJECT Paul.

    Paul is telling a bunch of PAGANS who REJECT JESUS, that they are part of those people called to repent, that they are children of God quoting the pagan poem of Zeus.

    The issue again Calvinist understanding that God's means of doing anything are limited.

    Paul here preaching the gospel could be God's drawing if he wants it to be. Even putting them in circumstance of blindly seeking.


    Is it a SIN that they REJECT JESUS? Careful how you answer this.
     
  12. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    10,911
    Likes Received:
    1,458
    Faith:
    Baptist
    May I ask you this?
    If the good tidings of great joy is to every single human being both past, present and future, then why is there any judgment to come since all people are saved?
    If all means all people are saved and that means there is good tidings of great joy for all people, then there is no judgment for any and no hell for any. This is the conclusion that you are demanding.
    Explain away your own demands. Do you declare that the human will is so vastly powerful that humans overpower the good tidings of great joy and cast down God's work of redemption in their lives by rejecting what God has done and not only demanding that God unsave them, but go farther to overpower God and destroy God's work entirely?
    It must be that humans are far more powerful and superior to God that they can, by their own willpower, cast down the purpose of God.
    Otherwise, you must concede that the good tidings of great joy which shall be to all people means that not just the Jews would receive this gracious redemption, but all people groups would hear the gospel and from all people groups there would be some who are redeemed. This fits with Revelation where John reports that there were people in heaven from every nation, tribe and tongue.
    However, your demands make you a universalist in declaration. According to you, all people must be saved by God, but perhaps they can unsave themselves by their free will and thus destroy God's salvation for them.

    I suggest you have entirely misunderstood the passage you quote.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  13. Dball65

    Dball65 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2021
    Messages:
    32
    Likes Received:
    1
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I suggest that you are not reading my earlier posts.
    I thought it was addressed but I will attempt again.

    Indeed He is the Word. John 1:14
    If we repent! 1 John 1:9-10
    Its not that that mankind is incapable of repentance but that we choose not to.
    And with enough resistance we have this end result. A reprobate mind.
    Romans 1
    19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

    20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

    21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

    22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

    23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

    24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

    25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
    26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

    28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

    I am not demanding anything. I am reading God's word and He alone can demand.
    As to your charge of Universalist I plead not guilty!

    Is this universalism?
    John 1
    29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
    And of course I will not let go of John 3:16
    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    And lets look at Isaiah 53
    Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

    2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

    3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

    4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

    5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

    6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

    I see this meaning more than some.

    I apologize for the long post but trying to be thorough.:Unsure
     
  14. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    10,911
    Likes Received:
    1,458
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You toss in a "we must cooperate with God or he cannot save us" in the comments above. I bolded it for you and placed it in italics.

    You state that God saves if we cooperate "If we repent."
    Thus, you demand a work by the human, which triggers God to save. In Romans Paul says this is not grace at all.

    Romans 11:5-6
    So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

    Note, we are chosen by grace. We are not chosen by repentance which moves God to be gracious. We are chosen by grace, which moves us to repentance. You have it flipped around and backwards.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2018
    Messages:
    4,651
    Likes Received:
    1,159
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I apologize if I seemed to imply that. That thought never occurred to me. I simply wanted the teaching of TULIP judged based on scripture rather than logic because things like TULIP do not make sense to the natural mind, but it is what scripture teaches. I want people to choose for themselves, but Scripture says that just like Adam, all who sin will not approach the Light (John 3:20) so the Father must draw them to the Light (John 6:44). So I need to either reject scripture and embrace natural logic (God cannot mean that), or I need to reject natural logic and embrace scripture (I don’t know WHY, but I accept that it is true).

    I believe that you are either misinformed or redefining the Total Depravity (or Total Inability) of TULIP.
    Just for the record, the TOTAL is the breath (not depth) of the “Depravity/Inability”. That means that SIN has impacted our FLESH, our MIND and our SOUL/SPIRIT. No part of us remains pure and unaffected.

    DEPRAVITY/INABILITY refers to the sin vs righteousness. Seeking after God vs missing the mark and hiding from God.

    So placing the two together, TOTAL DEPRAVITY/INABILITY means:
    • Our FLESH is corrupted by sin and will desire things contrary to the will of God. We are easily led astray by our eyes and our touch and the stimulation of being touched.
    • Our MIND does not naturally think the thoughts of God. As a quick example, “Love those that hate you” is not something that springs as a natural first reaction to the human mind.
    • Our SPIRIT is not naturally drawn to God. People have an innate desire to control their destiny. To accept submission to a creator and yield control to God, is contrary to our innate desire. We want to do something to fix it ourself and, thus, maintain control. Remember why Adam and Eve ate the fruit ... to become like God!

    So the question is:
    Does scripture teach this or not?
    Do we accept scripture or not?

    PS. Total Depravity does not make the rest of TULIP the only answer. John Wesley talks of something called “prevenient grace” where God grants a universal grace to allow all men the ability to choose to believe or reject the Gospel when they hear it. So natural man will never SEEK GOD without the gospel, but can respond or reject the gospel when it is offered. It started the Methodist Church and the Wesleyan Holiness Movement that spread the gospel across the American west in the 1800’s and early 1900’s.
     
    #75 atpollard, Mar 14, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2021
    • Like Like x 2
  16. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2018
    Messages:
    4,651
    Likes Received:
    1,159
    Faith:
    Baptist
    On Mars Hill in Athens, Paul was speaking to a bunch of pagans ignorant of Jesus. Some heard and mocked. Some heard and wanted to hear more. Some heard and believed.

    I would argue ... "when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed." [Acts of the Apostles 13:48]

    We reformed advocate the Sovereignty of God and the limited ability of man. It is a point that you cannot or will not grasp. Paul preaching WAS the drawing of God for those who were were called according to the purpose of God, and those same words were foolishness to those being lost, unable to hear for want of "ears to hear" ... not of HIS sheep.

    "for whatsoever is not of faith is sin." [Romans 14:23]
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  17. Dball65

    Dball65 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2021
    Messages:
    32
    Likes Received:
    1
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I cannot and will not because of the entirety of God's word!

    God is sovereign because He is all powerful.
    Calvin flips this.
     
  18. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2018
    Messages:
    4,651
    Likes Received:
    1,159
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Respectfully, I don’t understand what you mean.

    God is sovereign because, to quote Corrie Ten Boon: “He does as He pleases and He does it right well.” (ie. God really IS in control)

    God is also OMNIPOTENT, but even a God that COULD do anything would not be Sovereign if He did not make what He desires come to pass.

    An omnipotent God that yields control to man, is not sovereign.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. Dball65

    Dball65 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2021
    Messages:
    32
    Likes Received:
    1
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Exactly!
    Calvin flips the statement.
    He is all powerful because He is sovereign.

    Allowing
    us, we, all, any, world and whosoever to choose is not giving over control.
    Its long suffering.

    Old invitation hymn says it well.
    Come every soul by sin oppressed there is mercy with the Lord and He will surely give you rest by trusting in His Word!

    Of course invitations are losing popularity.
     
  20. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    5,149
    Likes Received:
    293
    God does not desire for you to ever sin again. Lets see if that comes to pass.

    Or does he yield to control of men?
     
Loading...