Americans Ignorant of Our History/Heritage Study Reports

[Martin]

RevMitchell Said:
"This is just in complete error. Prior to these tests kids were graduating not able to read two sentences. Teachers are government employees and responsible tot he tax payers. They need accountability. Especially with the extreme left wing teachers Union involved."


==I'm not really sure how to respond to that since all indications are that students are getting worse. The eog tests are not solving any problem. If you think teachers "teaching to the test" is a good thing then I don't know what to say. I know very good elementary school teachers who have had their lessons destroyed over the past dozen or so years by being forced to "teach to the test". Standardized tests are the single worst way to judge a students knowledge and performance (in any subject at any level).

Btw, I teach undergraduate students. Allow me to assure you that they still can't "read two sentences" much less write a meaningful paper. They don't know how to take notes, study for exams, think logically, nor are they able to analyze information. Most of today's public school graduates are woefully unprepared for college. But should we be surprised? After all standardized tests don't test a student's ability to write a meaningful paper or think logically. Teachers can't spend time teaching those skills when they have a limited amount of time to teach what students need to memorize (not learn) to pass a standardized test.

The eog multiple choice tests are a joke.

But if you think they are a good measure of performance...:tonofbricks:

 

[Revmitchell]

RevMitchell Said:
"This is just in complete error. Prior to these tests kids were graduating not able to read two sentences. Teachers are government employees and responsible tot he tax payers. They need accountability. Especially with the extreme left wing teachers Union involved."


==I'm not really sure how to respond to that since all indications are that students are getting worse. The eog tests are not solving any problem. If you think teachers "teaching to the test" is a good thing then I don't know what to say. I know very good elementary school teachers who have had their lessons destroyed over the past dozen or so years by being forced to "teach to the test". Standardized tests are the single worst way to judge a students knowledge and performance (in any subject at any level).

Btw, I teach undergraduate students. Allow me to assure you that they still can't "read two sentences" much less write a meaningful paper. They don't know how to take notes, study for exams, think logically, nor are they able to analyze information. Most of today's public school graduates are woefully unprepared for college. But should we be surprised? After all standardized tests don't test a student's ability to write a meaningful paper or think logically. Teachers can't spend time teaching those skills when they have a limited amount of time to teach what students need to memorize (not learn) to pass a standardized test.

The eog multiple choice tests are a joke.

But if you think they are a good measure of performance...:tonofbricks:

So you have students who cannot read? I doubt it. So where are these indications or are those stats coming form the teachers union? Teachers need accountability. and it appears the history that lead up to the standardized testing is being revised.

It is a false argument that students are memorizing instead of learning. The evidence is that they do not have the answers tot he tests in advance. Ad to that I know for a fact that reading comprehension s on the tests.

In the end I do not care how the accountability is done. Whether it is by these tests or some other standard. But what ever it is we need to be able to see what students are doing as the progress through grades. And we need teachers to be accountable to teaching Reading Writing and arithmetic. Pick the standard I don't care what it is. But teachers do not need to have a free hand.

 

[Martin]

So you have students who cannot read? I doubt it.

==I, and other college instructors/professors, have plenty of students who cannot read at the college level or compose a paper without massive amounts of spelling and gramatical mistakes. We are not talking about emails or messageboards, we are talking about papers that they had plenty of time to write and proofread. If you could read some of the stuff we have to read on an almost daily basis you would know what I am talking about. It is shameful.

So where are these indications or are those stats coming form the teachers union? Teachers need accountability. and it appears the history that lead up to the standardized testing is being revised.

==I don't have stats, I have a knowledge of teachers who have and do teach in the public schools. Good teachers who can't do their jobs because of massive amounts of paper work, being forced to teach the tests, and attend way too many workshops.

You keep singing the praises of the standardized tests. Yet you have yet to confront the fact that those tests only test the lowest level of human knowledge. They don't test a student's ability to analyze what he/she has learned nor do they test a student's ability to think critically or examine all the facts. They certainly don't test a student's ability to compose a halfway decent paragraph or paper.

If you think the standardized tests are good, you must not be in education. :laugh:

It is a false argument that students are memorizing instead of learning.

==No, it is the facts. I am not arguing anything, I am just telling you what very good public school teachers say is happening and what I saw when I worked with undergraduate teacher education students at a state University. I also know a lady who is one of the writers of the NC EOG exams. Even she is highly critical of the tests. Of all the teachers I know I can't think of one (elementary, middle, high school, or college) who thinks the current system is a good one. Beyond that the proof is in the pudding. The average public school graduates are not ready for college or the workforce. The standardized tests that you think are so great are simply not working. Why? Because they test isolated facts that students are forced to memorize. Students should be taught the facts in the context of learning how to study, write, and think critically. A standardized M.C. exam cannot do that.

The evidence is that they do not have the answers tot he tests in advance. Ad to that I know for a fact that reading comprehension is on the tests.

==Teachers know what is going to be on the eog tests. That is what they base their curriculum on.

In the end I do not care how the accountability is done. Whether it is by these tests or some other standard. But what ever it is we need to be able to see what students are doing as the progress through grades. And we need teachers to be accountable to teaching Reading Writing and arithmetic. Pick the standard I don't care what it is. But teachers do not need to have a free hand.

==That is an insult. Not because you are saying that public school teachers should be held accountable, of course they should, but because you are assuming that prior to standardized eog tests there was no accountability.

As a college instructor I don't have to deal with eog tests (etc). However I am still held accountable. Maybe the public schools could look to the colleges for ways to hold their teachers accountable while allowing them to teach the subjects instead of a test.

 

[windcatcher]

Rev, I have to agree with Martin on this one. On many mutiple choice tests, the best answer is one of 4 choices. That generally means a student could pick .....lets say the 4th choice on all the answers and still average about 25% without knowing a thing: Then add to this the coaxing that kids get to eliminate all the answers which they know to be wrong, and then pick the best choice of the remaining; One is apt to get a range of scores about 50%. This is without any certain knowledge required.... just using relatively good guessing skills. Of course tests can be made to be more discriminating.... ie. picking the best answer when some of the choices are combinations of several correct choices mixed with incorrect choices..... with only one answer which is correct with no incorrect in the mix.

This does not mean students are learning just because they score well on an exam: Often, although the current test is neither known to the students nor the teachers ahead of time, most tests will follow a pattern of weighted subject material with certain repetitive emphasis and questions, and copies of previous tests may exist from which pre-testing and teaching is done. The tests are often made and pre-tested by a group of educators and statisticians on a 'test group' to insure that the test measures the content which is usually covered in a subject area, that the scores produced are a measure of the ranges of scores (like the 'bell curve) which might be expected of a group of diverse students with varying study habits and frequently there is some modification to the questions and answers or scoring to discourage those who are good guessers.

So, then, there are several ways in which a test may be designed: However, a teacher, who has seen copies of previous tests, knows that in all likelihood many questions may be reworded just a little but many questions will reappear again and again on future tests, and the emphasis within subject material remains relatively the same.

This doesn't mean that all teachers teach only 'to the test'; but, if one adds in additional factors such as larger classes; discipline problems; extremes of abilities within the make up of the class so that the child with learning difficulties is blended into the overall acheivenment of the class and the exceptional student isn't challenged, or functions, instead, as a mentor to those with difficulties..... then there is the inclination for a dumbing down of the learning experience of all students; and the teacher...... for the sake of maintaining his own job and performance criteria, (based not on the difficulties he may encounter in a population of students which is not truely representative of a larger community...ie a poor or muticultural district as opposed to the size of a state) willl likely teach to the test to make sure that students can pass ..... whether or not they've mastered the material.

Here, in Florida, schools are competitive and are expected to maintain a certain score. If, in fact, one fails to do so, then a probationary period may evolve during which the school is expected to improve the scores of its students: If that fails, then students may apply to other schools or privately funded charter schools which are excelling. This often means a cut back in school funds to the schools which are failing, adding more pressure to the faculty to produce results any way possible without diagnosing where the problems really lay. The system is meant to improve the outcome for all, but it can be merciless to those schools which are already struggling with difficulties within their population and scarce on experienced and talented teachers who gravitate to better teaching environments.

While I understand the ideals of mainstreaming those with learning difficulties and students with other challenges into the general student population, I believe that it is an error of the 'pc' crowd which places them in competition with others and doesn't provide the additional instruction or one to one assistance which they may require until their developmental and behavioral skills catch up.

In summary, I don't know that there is any 'right' answer or 'one size fits all' to this question of test scores used to measure the effectiveness of the system of education or the efficiency of instruction. It may be that the problem lies in areas of content of material which really should be covered.... as in the OP, regarding civics/government and history, ......but which are lacking on test and too much emphasis on areas of sociology, psychology, and cultural diversity which is being included on the test and in the commitment of instruction time.

 

[Revmitchell]

==That is an insult. Not because you are saying that public school teachers should be held accountable, of course they should, but because you are assuming that prior to standardized eog tests there was no accountability.

.

That's right. Teachers were not accountable prior to the standardized tests. And there are still those who are pushing for teachers to have the free hand collage professors have. Whether it is an insult or not I suppose is a personal thing.

What you failed to acknowledge in this post was that I said I do not care how the testing is done or how the teachers are held accountable. But there needs to be a standard parents can see the results. That is who they need to be accountable to. In the end the liberal teachers union will demonize any standard that holds teachers accountable to parents.

And again your statement that you have students that cannot read is most likely hyperbole. It is impossible that a student enters collage and cannot read.

 

[Martin]

What you failed to acknowledge in this post was that I said I do not care how the testing is done or how the teachers are held accountable. But there needs to be a standard parents can see the results. That is who they need to be accountable to. In the end the liberal teachers union will demonize any standard that holds teachers accountable to parents.

==You know how parents can hold teachers accountable? By being involved in their children's education.

And again your statement that you have students that cannot read is most likely hyperbole. It is impossible that a student enters collage and cannot read.

==Only barely, I have plenty of students who can't write a college level paper. I place the blame for that on the public schools, the standardized tests, and the parents.

 

[Revmitchell]

I have plenty of students who can't write a college level paper.

That is what "college" is for.