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Featured Apart from the Law

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JonC, Mar 22, 2022.

  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    On another thread my belief that our salvation is God's righteousness manifested apart from the law was challenged. This was far from the first time, but it is the most recent:


    The reading I believe as I do is:

    Romans 3:21–31 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
    22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
    23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
    24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
    25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
    26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
    27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
    28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
    29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,
    30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.
    31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

    So is our salvation a manifestation of God's righteousness apart from the law or within the law?
     
  2. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    Apart, most definitely. Within the law would be salvation by works.
     
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  3. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I agree. And this is one area where Calvinism fails.
     
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  4. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    How does this have something to do with Calvinism?
     
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  5. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    And we know that God, in his justice, will punish anyone who does such things.Since you judge others for doing these things, why do you think you can avoid God’s judgment when you do the same things?Don’t you see how wonderfully kind, tolerant, and patient God is with you? Does this mean nothing to you? Can’t you see that his kindness is intended to turn you from your sin?But because you are stubborn and refuse to turn from your sin, you are storing up terrible punishment for yourself. For a day of anger is coming, when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed.He will judge everyone according to what they have done.He will give eternal life to those who keep on doing good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers.But he will pour out his anger and wrath on those who live for themselves, who refuse to obey the truth and instead live lives of wickedness.There will be trouble and calamity for everyone who keeps on doing what is evil—for the Jew first and also for the Gentile.
    - Romans 2:2-9

    But now God has shown us a way to be made right with him without keeping the requirements of the law, as was promised in the writings of Moses and the prophets long ago.We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are.For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard.Yet God, in his grace, freely makes us right in his sight. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins.For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past,for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he makes sinners right in his sight when they believe in Jesus.Can we boast, then, that we have done anything to be accepted by God? No, because our acquittal is not based on obeying the law. It is based on faith.So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law.After all, is God the God of the Jews only? Isn’t he also the God of the Gentiles? Of course he is.There is only one God, and he makes people right with himself only by faith, whether they are Jews or Gentiles.Well then, if we emphasize faith, does this mean that we can forget about the law? Of course not! In fact, only when we have faith do we truly fulfill the law.
    - Romans 3:21-31

    Or have you forgotten that when we were joined with Christ Jesus in baptism, we joined him in his death?For we died and were buried with Christ by baptism. And just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glorious power of the Father, now we also may live new lives.Since we have been united with him in his death, we will also be raised to life as he was.We know that our old sinful selves were crucified with Christ so that sin might lose its power in our lives. We are no longer slaves to sin.For when we died with Christ we were set free from the power of sin.And since we died with Christ, we know we will also live with him.We are sure of this because Christ was raised from the dead, and he will never die again. Death no longer has any power over him.When he died, he died once to break the power of sin. But now that he lives, he lives for the glory of God.So you also should consider yourselves to be dead to the power of sin and alive to God through Christ Jesus.
    - Romans 6:3-11

    A person can follow the progression of Paul's argument. It is the substitutionary atonement of Jesus, in which we place our faith as our justification for why we shall not be punished.
     
  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Karen,

    You are missing a few important details.

    Romans 2:2 : And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things.

    But this is not what you are talking about. You ate talking about God's wrath falling on sinful actions - NOT those who practice those things.

    In your theory, Karen, God is unjust and the justifier of sinners.
     
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  7. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    I stand by scripture. I can see that you misinterpret Paul and ignore the fact that I walked you through Paul's train of thought.
    We will not agree, but it won't be because I don't have scripture to support my position.

    Just realize you are walking down a path that not even Jesus walked.
     
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  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    That's fine, Karen. I never set out to change your mind.

    I find value in discussing disagreements and seeing what people believe and why people believe what they believe. That does not mean changing peoples mind.

    I am always open to refining and correcting my views if they are shown wrong via Scripture. I do not easily buy into people's opinions.

    So thank you, Karen, for an interesting discussion. I enjoy revisiting this issue.

    Peace
     
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  9. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Well, first, Karen is always right, while Patrick is most often wrong. So thanks for the compliment.
    Second, you seem to pick up some liberal theology books and then adopt them. Then you try to pawn those ideas off here at the BB while looking down on anyone not as enlightened as you.
    Good job!
     
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    You mean Karen always thinks she is right :Laugh . I like Patrick. Reminds me....a couple of weeks ago my wife found a starfish and tossed it back in to "save it". A gull swooped down and had lunch.

    I am not looking down on anybody. Not sure what gave you that idea Karen.

    All I said is at one time I held your belief. I saw it as error and took a more literal approach to Scripture.
     
  11. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Our salvation is apart from the law in that we do not have to keep the law perfectly in order to be saved. God justifies the ungodly. But God saves us without sacrificing His righteousness or lifting the demands of the law (verse 26). On the contrary, the Law is established (verse 31) by the perfect life and atoning death of our Lord Jesus Christ. Penal Substitution. :)
     
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  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Calvinism ultimately believes our salvation is through the law. They believe that Christ came to keep (rather than to fulfilled) the law, and His "perfect lawkeeping" is imputed to us.

    Calvinism misinterpret the nature and purpose of the law. Calvinusm missinterprets redemption. Calvinism misinterprets Atonement. Calvinism misses the Cross. The reason is they start not with God but with the law.
     
  13. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    "A righteousness 'apart' from the law" means apart from "the deeds, or works, of the law," as the case is stated in the rephrasing in vs 28.

    In other words, the works of the law, the washings, the fastings, the offerings the tithe paying, cannot, nor ever could they, truly impute the righteousness of which they testify. Righteousness was always imputed by faith.

    It does NOT mean that there is a higher or different righteousness. There is no righteousness that has other gods, does not enter into rest, disobeys parents, lies, steals, kills, covets, etc.

    Neither does it mean that God has a righteous and just response other than that testified to in the law to the transgressions thereof, which is really what you're trying to say to make your case that God does not demand that amends be made and the debts of sin be paid, which is what Jesus did for us when He was offered for sin.
     
    #13 Aaron, Mar 22, 2022
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2022
  14. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Ooo. Do we get to use nicknames now, Jon(can't)C? :Whistling
     
  15. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    I need to deliver the Gospel from your sloppy caricature, if not truly diabolical spirit.

    Christ is the law personified. God is no more righteous than the righteousness demanded of the law, which is the righteousness God demands of any that approach Him. And that is the righteousness that is imputed to us. He was accepted for us in the Burnt Offering.

    Leviticus 1:4-9 And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him. ... and the priest shall burn all on the altar, to be a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD.

    Ephesians 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

    No, JonC perverts the nature and purpose of the law. JonC misinterprets redemption. JonC misinterprets Atonement.

    JonC misses the Cross.

    The reason? Jon doesn't know the law. Jon(can't)C.
     
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  16. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Aaron, I take full responsibility. I posted a a Donnell & Connell video where they ask St Patrick to define the Trinity. D&C call everyone who gets things wrong...Patrick. I called Jon Patrick. He's responded with Karen. I'm good. I like Karen. She's never wrong. :Biggrin
     
  17. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    If I were the only one who has observed your behavior, we could be at an impasse, but your condescension has been observed by many people. Simply understand you hold a view very few follow and the reason is because your view is wrong.
     
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  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    But just as many have said the same of ypu, Karen.

    The view I hold is held by more Christians than hold your view....you do realize that, right??

    You hold a minority view. It is a large minority, granted. But it is only ignorance that leads you to believe few affirm my position.

    And that does not matter. If the size of groups mattered, you lose. But it doesn't, and that is mot why I see your understanding as wrong. The reason is it is not in the Bible itself.

    I have made a choice to stick with "what is written" when it comes to foundational doctrines. You have made the choice to stick with a theology in terms of what a particular sect has reasoned out of Scripture.

    That is fine. We each will live or die by our beliefs.
     
  19. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Oh, I wasn't retaliating or taking up for you. Just saw a door open and walked through. :Biggrin
     
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  20. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Are there that many Jehovah's Witnesses out there? They claim to "stick with what is written" as well. Good luck with that.
     
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