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Are You Monergistic Or Synergistic?

Discussion in 'Polls Forum' started by tyndale1946, Nov 21, 2023.

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  1. God Saves Alone

    9 vote(s)
    100.0%
  2. God Needs My Consent To Save Me

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    The op is a false dichotomy
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  2. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    ...and @robt.k.fall

    How?
     
  3. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    KY you consistent, you always exhibit your selective reading. You do realize there are more verses after vs 24.

    the unbelieving Jews who thought they were essentially born saved {this reminds me of all those Calvinists saved before the foundation of the world} as children of Abraham and justified by their performance under the Law, which contrasts with the Gentile believers who successfully attained God’s righteousness simply by faith, summarized at Romans 9:30-32.

    Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;
    Rom 9:31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.
    Rom 9:32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
    Rom 9:33 just as it is written, "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."
     
  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    The poll offers 2 options - either God saves alone OR God needs my consent to save me.

    It assumes those are the only two options.

    But suppose Spurgeon is right and God works in the lives of the lost, and this by persuasion. Then God alone saves, but also men must repent and believe of their own will.


    Another view is that God demonstrated Himself to all men, and all would be saved except via rejection (God does not need man's consent to save, but man can reject the gospel....the need remains on man, God allowing rejection, but not needing acceptance).

    I'm sure there are other views out there, but those two just popped into mind.
     
  5. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    2 3 and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory,
    24 even us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles? Ro 9
     
  6. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Using a larger font does not alter what I posted. But it does show that you really have nothing to say in response.

    You do realize there are more verses after vs 24.

    the unbelieving Jews who thought they were essentially born saved {this reminds me of all those Calvinists saved before the foundation of the world} as children of Abraham and justified by their performance under the Law, which contrasts with the Gentile believers who successfully attained God’s righteousness simply by faith, summarized at Romans 9:30-32.

    Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;
    Rom 9:31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.
    Rom 9:32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
    Rom 9:33 just as it is written, "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

    This seems to be a stumbling block for you KY.
     
    #26 Silverhair, Nov 23, 2023
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2023
  7. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    Nope

    Paul has spent the first 8 chapters working to reconcile Jews and Gentiles around the truth that all are justified by faith alone. Why would he then be attempting to segregate the two in Romans 9 as you are attempting to do? The answer is that he doesn't. You are struggling with what Paul tells you so you ignore the argument Paul has been making from Chapter 1 to chapter 9 in an attempt to deny the authority of God to choose whom He wills.
     
  8. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    To me Paul puts the capstone on it in Romans 11... God NEVER throws away his people... Brother Glen:)

    Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

    26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

    27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

    28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

    29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

    30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

    31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

    32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.


    33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

    To all you Bible scholar these are spiritual Jews and Gentiles, not natural!
     
    #28 tyndale1946, Nov 23, 2023
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2023
  9. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. God never throws away His people.
    It's a cause for Thanksgiving!
     
    • Winner Winner x 4
  10. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Neither does your shouting in all caps:

    You do realize that twisting Romans 9 to make it apply to Jews only is an old lame tactic of free-willers in an attempt to refute Sovereign Grace as Paul presents it. The context soundly refutes that tactic.

     
  11. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    What do we see in Romans 9? Paul has great sorrow and is grieved for his brethren the Jews. But why, they have so many blessings from God. Well as you see in the text is because most have rejected their Messiah. Many have chosen to trust in the fact they are Jews, God's chosen people, or their good works.

    But how does God choose whom to show mercy to? Paul tells us. Those of faith.
    Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith;
    Rom 9:31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness.
    And why did Israel fail
    Rom 9:32 Why?
    Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law.

    So @taisto I am not attempting to segregate the Jews and the Gentiles. Paul is segregating those Jews that trust in God and those that trust in their works for their salvation.
     
  12. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    That was not me doing the all caps that was the text as I copied it from the NKJV.

    Since we see Paul grieving over his countrymen, the Jews and we see the Gentiles used to show that it is by faith not by works that one finds salvation. God has mercy on those that trust in His risen Son which is just what Paul is telling his fellow Jews.

    And we see free will clearly in these verses.

    Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith;
    Rom 9:31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness.
    Rom 9:32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.
     
  13. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Nothing you've posted refutes the fact that God has afore prepared for glory vessels of mercy from all races of men, and not from Jews only as you're wont to twist it to mean.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  14. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Your response just proves that you really do not read what is posted .

    Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith;
    Rom 9:31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness.
    Rom 9:32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.

    Not shouting at you but you do appear to need glasses. Is that a large enough font that you can actually see it.

    You are so stuck in your Calvinism that it seems impossible for you to even read what is the actual text of the bible. You have to twist it to fit your errant theology.
     
  15. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    Nope
    Paul has told all readers that justification is by faith alone. In Romans 9 he is showing us that justification is not by ancestral lineage or by something that any human does. Justification by faith is given to those of any nation tribe or tongue by virtue of God's choosing. Therefore, faith is a gift of God, not a work of many that causes God to be impressed.

    Your humanism keeps clouding your eyes and causes you to miss grace.
     
  16. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Nothing you've posted refutes the fact that God has afore prepared for glory vessels of mercy from all races of men, and not from Jews only as you're wont to twist it to mean.
     
  17. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Strange how the bible keeps saying that man is the one that has to believe.

    Heb_11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

    Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

    Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

    Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

    Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

    I included the last one because Calvinists keep saying that faith is a work but it seems to be a work that God approves of.
     
  18. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Are you so blind that you do not see the word GENTILE? Your just unset that most do not fall for the philosophy that you have attached your wagon to.

    How does Paul telling the Jews that they can not be saved by works or by being a Jew equate to me saying that only Jews are saved. Point that out by quoting the text.

    I am surprised that you have not accused me of saying that Jews can't be saved. Are you sure you do not want to change your tune KY. I mean if your going to be wrong about one thing then you might as well be wrong about everything else.

    Rom 9:31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness.
    Rom 9:32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.
     
    #38 Silverhair, Nov 23, 2023
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2023
  19. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Nothing you've posted refutes the fact that God has afore prepared for glory vessels of mercy from all races of men, and not from Jews only as you're wont to twist it to mean.
     
  20. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Still can't find that text eh KY. Does make your blow and bluster seem rather like a lot of hot air.
     
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