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Featured Baptists, Penal Substitution, Original Sin

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Rebel, Feb 28, 2016.

  1. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    I am also out of time (was a couple hours ago, lol), so I will just say that at not time is the "Threeness" of God a departure from Unified Deity.

    God is One, and Christ makes this clear here:

    John 14:9-10

    King James Version (KJV)


    9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

    10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.


    So are we to say that this claim of being in the Father and the Father in Himself is not also true when He cries out as He did?

    If that is true, then Christ ceases to be God at that time, becomes simply a man, that is just the only conclusion that can be drawn. We can't say both.

    And I will try to get to your sermon when I can.


    God bless.
     
  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Yes.....your implication is correct.....I should have rephrased the question....Laugh

    I also believe that Jesus died to save only those whom the Father had given. Only the elect are redeemed by the blood of Christ by design. When the Father offered His Son as a guilt offering, that Atonement was intended only to redeem those who would believe. So I suppose, like all of those you list, I also believe in limited atonement. It's with those hyper-limited atonement people I find disagreement (those who understand the atonement through such a theory that excludes Jesus dying in such a way that calls, to use the words of Eusebius, "all men equally to share together the good things."
     
  3. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Scanned through it quickly, and just wanted to point out that while the creed may speak of Hell, as mentioned before, Scripture doesn't, so this is a good point to discuss. It suggests that Christ endured the Second Death (my own Pastor also holds to this view), which cannot be borne out from what we are given. His physical death was enough.

    Another thought (and sorry, but this is just of the topics that interests me) would be, we see Christ's maintained unity with the Father, I think, based on His final cry:


    Luke 23:46


    King James Version (KJV)


    46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.


    Not the cry of one who knows their fate is that of separation. Even in death that relationship I maintained.

    Another issue that I would have to take issue with is found in your use of this...


    ‘”Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” Says the LORD God, “And not that he should turn from his ways and live?……..For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the LORD God, “Therefore turn and live!”’ (Ezek 18:23, 32


    ...and ascribing it an eternal application. While it is true that ultimately the wicked will be eternally separated, and experience the Second Death, that is not what Ezekiel is speaking about in chapter 18. If we conclude that this is the case, then we must equally conclude that those who are obedient...


    Ezekiel 18:14-17

    King James Version (KJV)


    14 Now, lo, if he beget a son, that seeth all his father's sins which he hath done, and considereth, and doeth not such like,

    15 That hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, hath not defiled his neighbour's wife,

    16 Neither hath oppressed any, hath not withholden the pledge, neither hath spoiled by violence, but hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment,

    17 That hath taken off his hand from the poor, that hath not received usury nor increase, hath executed my judgments, hath walked in my statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live.


    ...receive eternal life through works.

    The context is temporal, not eternal.

    Secondly, we see, not the Promise of the New Covenant, but...


    Ezekiel 18:30-31

    King James Version (KJV)


    30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

    31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?


    Quite different than God promising "I will..."


    God bless.
     
    #43 Darrell C, Feb 29, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 29, 2016
  4. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Yes, the Gospel Call is universal. I don't know anyone who adheres to the 5 Heads of the Canons of Dordt who denies that. It is only in its application that the Atonement is Limited. In fact Dordt goes out of its way to say in Head 2, Article 5: The Mandate to Proclaim the Gospel to All:

    "Moreover, it is the promise of the gospel that whoever believes in Christ crucified shall not perish but have eternal life. This promise, together with the command to repent and believe, ought to be announced and declared without differentiation or discrimination to all nations and people, to whom God in his good pleasure sends the gospel."

    The atonement of Christ is sufficient for all people and effective for those who trust him. It is not limited in its worth or sufficiency to save all who believe. But the full, saving effectiveness of the atonement that Jesus accomplished is limited to those for whom that saving effect was prepared. The availability of the total sufficiency of the atonement is for all people. Whosoever will — whoever believes — will be covered by the blood of Christ. And there is a divine design in the death of Christ to accomplish the promises of the new covenant for the chosen bride of Christ.
     
  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I agree that it is only the application of the Atonement that is limited. Arminians also believe that the Atonement is limited in only in the application. I guess the question then is when is it applied? At the Cross (it comes before faith) or upon belief and repentance (it is a grace through faith)?

    The other elephant in the room is whether this is an atonement effective for all individual sins or if it is (as many of the church fathers you have presented held) an atonement for the sin of humanity which is the cause of forgiveness of sins. In other words, when I (being saved) sin was this already covered (as Jesus having been punished a bit more for that sin) or does Christ mediate on the basis of the Cross for my forgiveness?
     
  6. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Or a third option, upon regeneration, post cross but pre faith and repentance. But the basis of that regeneration is the Atonement so your first option may be feasible with the understanding that salvation occurs in time and a person is not saved prior to regeneration.

    I believe Christ atoned for all my sin on the cross, past, present, and future. When he said "It is finished" (τετελεσται) he used a technical accounting term meaning "The debt is discharged." My sin debt, not just in part, but in whole, was discharged on that fateful day when he "gave up the ghost" for me.

    As Horatio Spafford put it:

    My sin, oh, the bliss of this glorious thought!
    My sin, not in part but the whole,
    Is nailed to the cross, and I bear it no more,
    Praise the Lord, praise the Lord, O my soul!
     
  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I actually agree with you that Christ atoned for all of our sin on the cross and it is applied upon faith. I think that this, however, is our Sin (our sinfulness, that "sin" or curse of Adam.....I know....another topic) not our individual acts of sin. These, I believe, are forgiven as well and on the basis of the Cross and that reconciliation that God effected through Christ.

    But I do not understand "it is finished" to be "the debt is discharged." Rather, I think this was that Christ's obedience in becoming flesh to reconcile humanity to God was completed. We are reconciled through his death, and will be saved in his life.
     
  8. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    I believe it to be much more. I believe the entire debt includes the entire will of God. His incarnation, His exposure to shame and reproach that we earned, and His suffering and death. The entire work the Father gave him to accomplish, which included His preaching the Gospel, doing miracles, and obtaining eternal salvation for His people, all which was now done. That included that the whole righteousness of the law was fulfilled, perfect obedience accomplished, and the penalty of death endured. The debt, the entire debt, was discharged. :)
     
  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I did misunderstood what you meant by "entire debt." If you mean the atonement was completed (from the Incarnation through the Cross), and we have been purchased with the precious blood of Christ, then I absolutely agree.
     
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  10. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    "
    The word teleo, translated ‘finished’ in John 19:30, appears quite a few times in the New Testament and has some very interesting meanings :-

    Matt 11:1, A.V. ‘…..When Jesus had made an end of commanding his twelve disciples…..’

    Matt 17:24. “Does your Teacher not pay the temple tax?”

    Luke 2:39. ‘So when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord…..’

    Luke 18:31. ‘…..And all the things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of Man will be accomplished.’

    So what was made an end of at the cross? Our sins, the guilt of them and their very memory in the mind of God (Jer 31:34).

    What was paid? The price of our redemption (2). ‘Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us’ (Gal 3:13).

    What was performed? All the righteous requirements of the law.

    What was accomplished? All the work that the Father had given Christ to do (John 17:4).

    There are seven things that we may see finished, fulfilled or accomplished on the cross.

    1. On the cross we may see the fulfilment of all the prophesies which had been written of the Messiah in the Old Testament. He was Despised and rejected of men’(Isaiah 53:3); ‘Hated without a cause’ (Psalm 69:4; ‘Led as a lamb to the slaughter’ (Isaiah 53:7); His hands and feet were pierced (Psalm 22:16); He was forsaken by God (Psalm 22:1); He was ‘numbered with the transgressors’ (Isaiah 53:12); His clothes were distributed by lot (Psalm 22:18); He was mocked by passers-by (Psalm 109:25), taunted because God did not deliver Him (Psalm 22:7) and, finally, given vinegar to drink (John 19:28; Psalm 69:21). Indeed, there remained a few prophesies concerning Him that could only be fulfilled after His death, such as the piercing of His side (Zech 12:10), His bones not being broken (Psalm 34:20) and His being placed in a rich man’s grave (Isaiah 53:9), but all that needed to be done before His death had now been done and so, ‘When Jesus had received the sour wine, He said “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit (v30). Note that it was He who gave up His spirit; no one can kill God. “Therefore My father loves Me, because I lay down My life that In may take it up again. No one takes it from Me but I lay it down of Myself” (John 10:17-18). Having fulfilled all the prophesies, He dismissed His Spirit.

    2. On the cross we see the completion of all His sufferings. We are told that all His life our Saviour was ‘A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief,’ He declared, “I am afflicted and ready to die from My youth up” (Psalm 88:15). From His earliest days, the shadow of the cross hung over Him. In His conversation with Nicodemus He spoke that, “the Son of Man must be lifted up” (John 3:14) and again, ‘“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth will draw all peoples to Myself.” This He said, signifying by what death He would die’ (John 12:32-33). When Peter confessed that He was indeed the Christ, ‘From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things’ (Matt 16:21). On the mount of transfiguration, He was speaking with Moses and Elijah, ‘Of His decease which He was about to accomplish (Gk. teleo) at Jerusalem’ (Luke 9:31). The cross was always before Him, and though He naturally shrank from it as a Man, yet He pressed steadily on towards it (Luke 9:51; John 18:11). “Shall I not drink the cup which My father has given Me?” And drink it He did, right down to the dregs. His physical sufferings must have been immense, but they were as nothing compared to the spiritual and mental tortures that God laid upon Him. All the sins of His people, all our wickedness and vileness, were laid upon His sinless shoulders (2Cor 5:21); He became the very epitome of sin. And the Father turned away. The Lord Jesus had said, “Yet I am not alone, because the Father is always with Me’ (John 16:32). But on the cross the Father, who cannot look upon wickedness (Hab 1:13) had turned away from Him, and the sun had darkened and the weight of sin upon Him became intolerable, and He cried out, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”

    ‘We may not know, we cannot tell, what pains He had to bear;
    But we believe it was for us He hung and suffered there.’


    But now, the hours of darkness have passed, atonement has been made. “It is finished!” His sufferings are completed.

    3. On the cross we see the purpose of His coming attained. Before the Lord Jesus came to earth- indeed, before the very foundation of the world- He had been given a task by the Father. “Behold I come; in the scroll of the book it is written of Me, I delight to do Your will, O My God” (Psalm 40:8). As a boy of twelve He told His earthly parents, “Don’t you know that I must be about My Father’s business?” At the start of His ministry on earth, He declared, “The works My Father has given Me to finish, these I do” (John 5:36). Under the shadow of the cross He told His Father, “I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work You have given Me to do” (John 17:4). There on the cross, the divinely-given task was achieved. The Father’s will was done. ‘Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief’ (Isaiah 53:10). The Pharisees, the priests, Pilate, Herod, the Roman soldiers, they all performed their wicked parts in the death of our Lord; yet they only did what God’s own counsel had decreed before ever time was (Acts 4:28). The Lord Jesus performed what the Father had ordained, and there on the cross, it was completed.

    4. On the Cross we can see the accomplishment of the Atonement. ‘For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost’ (Matt 18:11). The Lord Jesus came, above all other things, to save. We owe a debt that we cannot possibly pay- a debt of righteousness which we do not possess. We need a Mediator to come between us and an offended God; we need a city of refuge to which we can run; we need an ark to shelter us from the waves of God’s righteous anger against sin; an advocate to plead our cause before God and to satisfy His outraged justice; we need a robe of perfect righteousness to cover all our sins, a surety to pay our debts on our behalf. The Lord Jesus is all these things for us. He has come between us and God’s justice. He is our refuge, our Surety who has paid the last farthing of what we owe. Tetelestai. ‘It has been paid.’ He is our covering for sin and He is our great High Priest who has offered the one perfect sacrifice for sin, acceptable to God. It is finished.
    [To be continued]
    .
     
    #50 Martin Marprelate, Mar 1, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2016
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  11. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    5. On the Cross we can see the end of all our sins. ‘And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all’ (Isaiah 53:6). If my iniquities have been laid upon Christ they are no longer on me. To be sure, there is still sin in me for I still carry the relic of my old Adamic nature and In will do until I die and shed this old body forever, but there is no more sin on me. I am no longer under condemnation. Why not? Because someone else has borne my punishment; someone else has taken the blame. ‘[He] Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree’ (1Peter 2:24). It is a principle of the law that you can only be punished once for the same offence. If someone else has taken my punishment, I am no longer under its penalty. If someone has taken on my debt I am no longer liable to pay it. On the Day of Atonement, the High Priest placed his hands upon a live goat, symbolically transferring to it all the sins of the Israelites, before releasing it into the desert. This looked forward to the day when God the Father would lay all our sins upon the Lord Jesus Christ and He would take them away. But what of future sins? Will I still incur the guilt of these? By no means! This is the wonder of the atonement- not only are our sins laid upon Christ, but His perfect obedience and righteousness are credited to us who believe. ‘For He has made Him who know no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him’ (2Cor 5:21. cf. also Rom 5:19; 1Cor 1:30).

    ‘He Himself took upon Him our sins, Himself gave His own Son as a ransom for us…….For what could cover our sins but His righteousness? In whom was it possible for us, lawless and impious as we were, to be justified, save only in the Son of God? Oh, sweet exchange and unsearchable act of creation…..that the lawlessness of many should be hidden in the One righteous, and the righteousness of one should justify many who were lawless!’ (Epistle to Diognetus, IX).

    So when God, as Judge, looks upon believers, He sees no sin in His people, but only the perfect righteousness of Christ. As Father, of course, He still sees our failings and lovingly corrects them, but as Judge, He sees none. ‘Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more’ (Heb 10:17). Christ has taken them away forever. ‘For as the heavens are high above the earth, so great is His mercy toward those who fear Him; as far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed our transgressions from us’ (Psalm 103:11-12). Tetelestai. It is finished. It is the end of all our sins.

    6. On the cross we see the fulfilment of the Law’s requirements. ‘The law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good’ Rom 7:12).The fault is not in the law but in sinful man who cannot keep it. Yet the law must be kept, and kept by a man, so that it might be honoured and magnified, and its giver vindicated. ‘To demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus’ (Rom 3:26. Cf. also 8:3-4) Christ has lived the life of perfect righteousness and obedience that we cannot live; he has fulfilled the righteous requirements of the law, and so have we, in Him.

    Perhaps some personal testimony will be helpful here. My father was a difficult man, and we had a very uneasy relationship punctuated by some blazing rows. I can remember thinking to myself, “Why doesn’t the old fool shut up and leave me alone?” Then he was gone; carried away by a heart attack, long before I became a Christian. There was no time to say goodbye, much less apologize. How then can I keep Exodus 20:12 which bids me ‘Honour your father and mother’? It is no good trying to keep just the other nine commandments, even if I were able. James 2:10 tells me, ‘For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.’ Praise His name, Jesus Christ has come to my rescue. ‘Then He went down with [His parents] and came to Nazareth and was obedient to them’ (Luke 2:51). He has kept the law in my stead, and paid the penalty for my failure on the cross. It is finished. The law’s requirements are fulfilled.

    7. Finally, on the cross we see, by the eye of faith, the defeat of Satan. The death of our Lord, that which appeared to be the Satan’s greatest victory, was in fact his death-knell. ‘For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil’ (1John 2:8). The work of the devil was to plunge the world into sin and death and corruption. Christ’s work was to redeem a people from the great wreck of mankind, to take away the curse on the earth so that a restored and renewed people might live with God forever in a new heavens and a new earth (2Peter 3:13).

    Satan is defeated and it happened at the cross. ‘inasmuch as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil’ (Heb 2:14). No longer has Satan any claim on us. We don’t work for him any more (Rom 6:16-18). We are now the willing servants of the Lord Jesus Christ and we delight to do His will (Psalm 40:6-8). Tetelestai. It is finished. Satan’s power is broken and the day will come when it will be ended completely forever. In the meantime we are told, ‘Resist the devil and he will flee from you’ (James 4:7). He must, for our new Master is stronger than he.

    We rest upon a finished work. ‘There is now therefore no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus’ (Rom 8:1). There is no more to do- nothing we can do to achieve salvation. “Come to Me all you who labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest” (Matt 11:28). Are you burdened, trying to earn your way to salvation? Come to Christ and rest. Then rise up to serve Him, not because you must but because you may; because Christ invites to share in His glorious victory and to tell the good news to others.
     
  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I believe that what was finished on the Cross was infinitely greater and eternally more significant than the settlement of a debt that we incurred by our transgressions. I believe that many of the passages you have quoted should be applied to our Sin (I am capitalizing this make a distinction between sin as in our sin nature and sins as in transgressions....I don't know a better way but am open to suggestions), and to man ontologically as children of Adam, rather than a list of offensive acts that we have committed and for which the Father must receive payment in order for forgiveness to take place. So where you view this finished accomplishment to be a debt paid in full for our sins, I view it to be an infinitely greater payment of our sin (our state of sin, not our sinful acts) and as Christ bore the price of human sin (the sins of the world...all sin) in his flesh, thus becoming (as Eusebius puts it) the cause for our forgiveness.
     
  13. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    We must be very careful here lest we fall into the ancient error of Sabellianism or Modalism.

    Our Lord was Man as if He were not God. Before He stilled the storm, He came on board the boat and was tired and weary. He was a man, suffering from human frailties. He needed to sleep. Now read Isaiah 40:28. God the Father did not go to sleep with Jesus.

    Our Lord was/is also God is if He were not Man. When the storm blew up and the disciples came to Him in a panic and woke Him up, 'Then He arose and rebuked the wind and said, "Peace! Be still!" And the wind ceased and there was a great calm' (Mark 4:39). Who but God has command of the elements?

    When the Lord Jesus died, He died as Man. God the Father did not die with Him. God cannot die.

    'Firmly I believe and truly,
    God is three and God is One.
    And I do acknowledge duly
    Manhood taken by the Son.'
     
  14. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    I wrote:
    'He is our refuge, our Surety who has paid the last farthing of what we owe. Tetelestai. ‘It has been paid.’ He is our covering for sin and He is our great High Priest who has offered the one perfect sacrifice for sin, acceptable to God. It is finished.'

    But in agreeing with Eusebius, you are disagreeing with the writer to Diognetus who speaks of 'sins' (plural). Beyond all doubt, our Lord has paid the penalty for our very sins, each and every one of them. 1 John 2:2 does not speak of some amorphous 'sin' concept, but of our all-too-real and actual sins.
     
  15. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    I don't see a Sabellian intent in my statement.

    Now here is the issue I see as being missed: you keep referring to His Humanity, which is essentially what I am pointing out: we have to maintain a temporal context in regards to the statement ("My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken Me?").

    Again...was David forsaken of God? The answer is no.

    And when we examine the true nature of the Psalm, and give it Messianic meaning only, we still see that we create something impossible when we say the Son of God (not...the Son of Man) ceased to be God.

    Because when we do, brother, I think we err more greatly than Sabellian or Modalistic thinking...we say the Son of God ceased being the Son of God.

    Hence...God stopped, for a brief time...being God.

    You imply I am denying His humanity, I am not. My view maintains that He was fully God and fully man. While we see death ascribed which we maintain in a temporal context (and again, a stress of the truth that His physical death is all that was required to make Atonement for man), I think it a mistake to import the eternal perspective into what is clearly temporal.

    And I do not find it strange that you draw upon Ezekiel 18 as a correlation. Most do. But I think, if we properly maintain context, and properly define the terms used (in Ezekiel 18 the word "soul") we will not have a basis to create a concept in which the Son of God ceases to be the Son of God, that is not in the text/s at all, just as David was not actually forsaken of God, though he despaired in the physical realm.


    God bless.
     
  16. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    I would just throw a question out to any who would like to reply: we know we cannot debate as to whether "it was finished" on the Cross or not, so, when we consider the elements of salvation, can we see a distinction made in Scripture that distinguishes the Penalty for Sin being made and that which can be accomplished based on that completion?


    God bless.
     
  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I know that I have favored Eusebius in this discussion, but please don’t take me wrong. I was glad that you chose him in your defense months ago because he is one of my favorites of that age. But I do not take him as an authority. That said, I agree with him in terms of the Atonement at this point. So I’ll offer this:

    “He received death for us, and transferred to Himself the scourging, the insults, and the dishonor, which were due us, and drew down on Himself the apportioned curse, being made a curse for us. And what is that but the price of our souls? And so the oracle says in our person: ‘By his stripes we are healed,’ and ‘The Lord delivered him for our sins..’”

    The price Jesus paid is not the price of our individual transgressions but the price for our souls. This is, in my view, what is being said of the atonement. Not that Jesus died for our individual transgressions by paying the debt we incurred by our actions, but that God through Christ was reconciling humanity to himself and this reconciliation in Christ is the basis that our sins are forgiven. Jesus died for us, not for our sins. His death was to redeem men, not sins; to reconcile mankind to God, not man's transgressions. Our sins are forgiven on the basis of this Atonement. In this manner, it is correct (as Eusebius also states) that our sins are removed, the debt paid, because our sinfulness has met Christ's obedience.
     
  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I've been wrestling with your question for some time now, brother Darrell. I may need for you to reword it, but if I understand your inquiry correctly then my answer is that we can see a distinction made.

    There is one body and one Spirit, one Lord one faith and one baptism (Eph 4). I know that some disagree (it wouldn't be the BB otherwise) but I believe that this completed work of the Incarnation reconciled OT saints in a way that had previously been unknown (I think that the veil or curtain remained, but was removed at the Cross). So a distinguishing feature is that OT saints, having always been God's chosen people, are now among those who have the right to be called children of God. They were at one time reckoned as righteous by faith, but now they are righteous in Christ (their anticipated Messiah has come and accomplished that work they had longed to see).

    I also believe that Scripture makes a distinction that the Kingdom is now here, yet at the same time not yet. It has arrived, but not at it's fullest. We are redeemed, purchased, justified, and reconciled. But we await for that time when we do know in full and see clearly. We eagerly await for the redemption of our bodies.

    I believe that humanity has also been reconciled in such a manner that we, who are in Christ, form a priesthood of believers. Insofar as forgiveness is concerned, we are not dependent on the Old Testament system but being reconciled through the blood of Christ we have a Mediator in Christ Jesus who intercedes on our behalf with the Father. The veil for us is removed.

    Humanity is reconciled to God. Men are now being called to be reconciled to God based on the work of Jesus Christ. Those who are justified and reconciled by the death of Christ now have a hope for salvation in His life. We look not to justification, not to reconciliation, but in hope we find in the Resurrection to that coming fullness of God's Kingdom where we will be resurrected to life in new bodies in God's new creation.

    In short, then, everything has changed yet we who are in Christ longingly await for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we are saved.
     
  19. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    You have a couple of misplaced QUOTES in your reply.
     
  20. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    I can agree with this. "The Lord delivered Him for our sins' and in that way He paid the price of our souls.

    They are the same thing. I repeat 1 John 2:2 which I think you may agree is a better authority than Eusebius: 'He is the propitiation for our sins.' Not,' He is the propitiation for our souls.'
    Yes, of course God reconciles humanity to Himself through Christ, but He is only able to do so and still be just (Romans 3:26) because Christ has paid the penalty in full for our sins.
    This is so, so wrong! I cannot understand why you go out of your way to deny the blessed truth that Christ 'bore our sins in His own body on the tree' (1 Peter 2:24). What could be clearer or simpler than that? Yes, of course He died for us, but He accomplished our salvation by paying the price of our sins in full.

    You will know the hymn that goes,
    'And on that cross as Jesus died,
    The wrath of God was satisfied;
    For every sin on Him was laid-
    Here in the death of Christ I live.''


    Though I suppose that you must refuse to sing it. I think it is an open secret that when PCUSA were compiling its new hymnbook, they approached Getty and Townend and asked if they could use the hymn changing the words to

    'And on that cross as Jesus died,
    The love of God was magnified.....'

    After consulting with Alistair Begg, Getty and Townend refused. The wonderful, comforting, Biblical doctrine of Penal Substitution meant more to them than a sack of money.
    His death was to redeem men by paying the price of their sins; to reconcile mankind to God by being the propitiation for their sins.

    Every last one. 'The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; for this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins' (Rom. 11:26-27).
     
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