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Featured Bought versus Redeemed

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Apr 20, 2023.

  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    But false teachers also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought (agorazo) them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. 2 Pet. 2:1.

    What does it mean that the Master had bought the false teachers? I believe the Master refers to Christ Jesus who provided the means of deliverance into salvation to all mankind from the bondage of their sinful separated from God state with His blood, the blood of the Lamb. Christ paid the price and God accepted the price. But what was bought? The means of salvation.. Christ became our mercy seat, and through Him, we can obtain the righteousness of God. Since by the sin of the One, Adam, the many, all mankind, were made sinners, imprisoned in our separated from God unholy state, Christ’s sacrifice on the cross bought us out of our prior condition and put us, all mankind, under the New Covenant in His blood.. We no longer must remain separated from God, because our sins can be washed away by the blood of Jesus.

    Paul put it this way in Colossians 2, “He [God] made you alive together with Him [Christ] referring to our being redeemed, transferred spiritually into Christ. And how did God accomplish this setting aside the record of our transgressions?

    God blotted out the handwriting in the ordinances, which said because we are unholy sinners we must remain separated from God and be punished. God took it out of the way, when He nailed Christ to the cross. Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, one sinner at a time when each is redeemed.

    Christ bought, paid the ransom, for all mankind, thus becoming the means of salvation for the whole world, 1 John 2:2. However, only when God credits our faith in Christ as righteousness and places us spiritually in Christ, do we receive the reconciliation provided by Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. Lets call this second transaction redemption. Thus mankind was bought with a price, but only those placed in Christ are redeemed
     
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  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Redemption refers to being ransomed out from something. In the case of sinners, the idea is being delivered from our initial sinful state (in Adam, in the realm of darkness) and thus refers to the deliverance into salvation. Before redemption, unsaved, but after redemption, saved. If we insert that meaning into the verses that use "redemption" we find:

    Luk 21:28
    “But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your [deliverance into salvation] is drawing near.”
    Rom 3:24
    being justified as a gift by His grace through the [deliverance into salvation] which is in Christ Jesus,
    Rom 8:23
    And not only that, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons and daughters, the [deliverance into salvation] of our body.
    1Co 1:30 But it is due to Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and [the deliverance into salvation].
    Eph 1:7 In Him we have [deliverance into salvation] through His blood, the forgiveness of our wrongdoings, according to the riches of His grace
    Eph 1:14
    who is a first installment of our inheritance, in regard to the [deliverance into salvation] of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
    Eph 4:30
    Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of your bodily [deliverance into salvation]
    Col 1:14
    in whom we have [deliverance into salvation], the forgiveness of sins.
    Heb 9:15
    For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the [deliverance into salvation] from the violations that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
    Heb 11:35
    Women received back their dead by resurrection; and others were tortured, not accepting their [deliverance into salvation], so that they might obtain a better resurrection;

    Another word meaning being ransomed but not including the "out from" deliverance component, is ambiguously translated "redemption." Here "ransom payment" seems to better fit the actual intended message.
    Luk 1:68
    “Blessed be the Lord God of Israel,
    For He has visited us and accomplished [the ransom payment] for His people,
    Luk 2:38
    And at that very moment she came up and began giving thanks to God, and continued to speak about Him to all those who were looking forward to the [ransom payment] for Jerusalem.
    Heb 9:12
    and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all time, having obtained the eternal [ransom payment].
     
  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    The Greek word - agorazo, G59 - simply means to purchase, but that word alone does not indicate what was bought, so it could refer based on context, to buying the means of salvation, when He died on the cross as the Lamb of God, or it could refer to those delivered into salvation. So when we see the word, we must consider the context to discern whether Christ obtained the means of salvation by His sacrifice, or redemption, ransoming individuals out from bondage, delivering them into salvation. The word (translated bought or purchased) is used for both transactions.

    In 1 Corinthians 6:20 and 1 Corinthians 7:23 deliverance into salvation was purchased. Ditto for Revelation 14:3-4. However, in 2 Peter 2:1, purchasing the means of salvation for all mankind, those to be saved and those never to be saved is in view.
     
  4. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    An ironic Bible quote.

    You claim a universal purchase by Jesus for all mankind. All humanity, by your assertion, is no longer separated from God.
    But, then you say our sins "can be washed away."
    Which is it? Is all humanity no longer separated, yet some have not been washed by that blood?

    Are all humans therefore washed by the blood?

    So, our faith causes God to credit us as righteous. Only then, even though we have had all our sins bought (ransomed, paid for in full) will God actually reconcile us.
    This seems to be your message.

    So, the first transaction is Jesus paid it all for all humanity. No one's sin is unpaid for, no matter who the person is, from Adam to the present. All sin is fully paid for.

    The second transaction is when men choose to have faith in God and by displaying that faith, God chooses to reconcile them (even though all their sin is already paid for) because he declares their faith righteous, despite the fact that all humanity already had no sin in the eyes of God due to Jesus ransoming all humanities sin.

    Again, the use of that verse at the beginning is ironic.
     
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  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Response:
    "An ironic Bible quote." This reply is a non sequitur.

    'All humanity, by your assertion, is no longer separated from God." Yet another material false statement, and note folks, no quote supporting the obviously false claim is provided.

    Does becoming the means of salvation, which does not include being washed by His blood (the washing of regeneration) mean all have been washed? Of course not, so yet another false claim.

    Did anyone say our faith "causes" God to credit our faith as righteousness? Nope, so once again a misrepresentation. If God chooses to credit someone's faith, as worthless as it may be, as righteousness, then of course the choice is not because of our faith's merit, but solely because of God's grace.

    And yet again the false claim is made that providing the ransom payment equates with being delivered out of sin's bondage, rather than equating with becoming the means of deliverance out of sin's bondage.

    Lastly the final misrepresentation, does becoming the means of salvation equate with paying for all the specific sins of every human? Nope. Christ bought, paid the ransom, for all of humanity, thus becoming the means of salvation for the whole world, 1 John 2:2. However, only when God credits our faith in Christ as righteousness and places us spiritually in Christ, do we receive the reconciliation provided by Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. Lets call this second transaction redemption. Thus humanity was bought with a price, but only those placed in Christ are redeemed. (Note humanity was bought, not specific sins.)
     
    #5 Van, Apr 21, 2023
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2023
  6. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    One possible reason why differing viewpoints or understandings of scripture have resulting in "two decades of unresolved debates" is that posters do not actually address the differences, but create strawmen to discuss. The difference between being bought with the blood of Jesus, and being washed by the blood of Jesus is profound. However, wait and see if that difference is actually discussed.
     
  7. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Relative to the word of God.

    Question

    Does redeemed imply something previous owned yet sold, whereas bought implies to purchase something you never owned?
     
  8. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    No, when an unsaved person is redeemed, saved, they were from conception unsaved before, and when Christ made the ransom payment with His blood, He purchased the right to be the means of salvation for all humanity.

    See post #3. The same word can be translated as redeemed or purchased based on context. On one hand the word can refer to purchasing the means of salvation, and on the other hand can mean to be redeemed, delivered out of our bondage to sin and into salvation, set free from the bondage and penalty of sin.
     
    #8 Van, Apr 21, 2023
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2023
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  9. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    2 Peter 2:1. ‘But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift judgement.’

    This text is certainly a difficult text for those who support the Doctrines of Grace. At first glance, it seems to be saying that people bought by the Lord Jesus Christ may depart from the faith and deny His name, striking at the very heart of the doctrines of Particular Redemption and the Perseverance of the Saints. The commentaries (at least the ones I have read) do not give a great deal of help. They suggest that these teachers merely ‘claim’ to have been bought by Christ and point to verse 22: ‘A dog returns to its vomit….etc’ which indicates that these people were not regenerate. But this does not satisfy the supporters of ‘General Redemption’ who see this verse as a proof text that Christ died for all men, but that only those who believe are saved.

    So how shall we answer this? The first part of the answer is to look at the word despotes, translated as ‘Lord’ in the NKJV and as ‘Master’ in other versions. Despotes is mostly used to describe human masters. On the few occasions where it is used of God, it usually speaks of the Father, not the Son. The regular word for ‘Lord,’ when used of the Deity, is Kurios, which has divine overtones, being the word used by the writers of the Greek ‘Septuagint’ translation to render the Divine name, ‘Yahweh.’ The only other place in the N.T. where despotes might refer to Christ is Jude 4, but even here it seems to speak of God the Father. It is also important to observe that whatever this ‘buying’ entailed, there is no mention of the blood of the Lord Jesus as there is in 1 Peter 1:18-19 or Revelation 5:9-10.

    So if despotes does indeed refer to God the Father, in what way did he ‘buy’ believers? We should first be aware that the verse is looking back to the O.T. period: ‘But there were false prophets among the people…..’ The Israelites were regarded as having been bought or redeemed out of Egypt by God. ‘Until the people pass over, O LORD, until the people pass over whom You have purchased’ (Exod. 15:16). ‘Do you thus deal with the LORD, O foolish and unwise people? Is He not the Father who bought you?’ (Deut. 32:6). God purchased the Israelites with His great power which He exhibited when He brought the plagues upon Egypt. But although all were ‘bought’ in that they all came out of Israel, very few of them ever reached the Promised Land (cf. 1 Cor. 10:1-5). These false teachers have likewise come into the church, but have not been redeemed by Christ.

    It is here that we find the great difference between the Old and New Covenants. The Old Covenant was made with all the Israelites and was conditional; only a small number of those were saved (Exod. 33:19; Isaiah 1:9). The New Covenant by contrast, was made with believers of every language and nation. These are Christ’s sheep and are bought with the blood of the Good Shepherd. They will come to Him and they shall never perish (John 10:27-28). The Old Covenant was conditional; the New is unconditional (compare Exodus 19;5-6 with 1 Peter 2:9-10). If Christ shed His blood for the whole human race, then John 10:7-30 makes no sense.

    This contrast is made especially clear in the famous ‘New Covenant’ prophecy of Jeremiah 31:31, repeated by the writer to the Hebrews:

    ‘Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah- not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. For this is the covenant that I shall make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put their laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I shall be their God and they shall be My people. None of them shall teach his neighbour, and none his brother, saying, “Know the Lord,” for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. For I shall be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more’ (Heb. 8:8-12).

    So we can clearly see that the false teachers of 2 Peter 2:1 were not Christians, since their ‘swift destruction’ proves that they were not in the New Covenant. Their allegiance to Christ was shown to be fleeting and insincere; they were never His sheep, and one day they would hear the dread words of the One they had professed to know but actually scorned, saying, “I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practise lawlessness" (Matt. 7:23). The reference to 'buying' is an Old Testament allusion and refers to those who are outwardly Christian but not inwardly.
     
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  10. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Thanks, thoughts on why a different word is used in 1 Peter 1:18 ---- ἐλυτρώθητε G3084

    Don't know what it means but appears G59 is in the context of gathering and G3084 in the context of loosing.
     
  11. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Does bought refer to redemption of purchasing the means of salvation? Purchasing the means of salvation, so the verse in no way challenges the sound doctrine of "Once saved always saved."

    Deuteronomy 32:6 is poorly translated as bought or redeemed, rather the Father "who you acquired, who you made, who you established" conveys the idea.

    Yes, the false teachers of 2 Peter 2:1 have not been redeemed, delivered from the bondage of saint, but Christ bought the right and means to saved them, if God so chooses. And in this case, God did not choose to save them as they are heading for destruction.

    The New Covenant is made for humanity, as Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all, purchasing the right to redeem those of His choosing.
     
  12. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    G3084 "lytroō" is the verb form of G3083 "lytron." The noun (G3083) refers to ransom, and the verb refers to making the ransom payment. To repeat, the issue is what is the ransom payment for? In 1 Peter 1:18 deliverance into salvation is in view, see 1 Peter 1:23. Thus redeemed is the correct translation.
     
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  13. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    wherefore, I give you to understand that no one, in the Spirit of God speaking, saith Jesus is anathema, and no one is able to say Jesus is Lord, except in the Holy Spirit. 1 Cor 12:3

    And there did come also false prophets among the people, as also among you there shall be false teachers, who shall bring in besides destructive sects, and the Master who bought them denying, bringing to themselves quick destruction, 2 Peter 2:1

    And not only so, but also we ourselves, having the first-fruit of the Spirit, we also ourselves in ourselves do groan, adoption expecting -- the redemption of our body; Rom 8:23
    having counselled, He did beget us with a word of truth, for our being a certain first-fruit of His creatures. James 1:18

    and every tongue may confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Phil 2:11



    Just trying to make sense of it all .
     
  14. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Van I highlighted your very words. I quoted you. So, there very much was quotation of what you said...exactly.
    You are remarkable in that you deny saying what you actually said.

    I note that you only acknowledge Jesus atonement as "a means" to redemption, which indicates that Jesus did not ransom all men entirely, but only potentially. In other words, Jesus effort is rendered null and void by the human who must activate the redemption by their own actions.
    No matter how you try to slice this, Van, the fullness of Jesus payment cannot be completed until you do the work on your end.
     
    #14 AustinC, Apr 21, 2023
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2023
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  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Higlighted statement:
    "Christ’s sacrifice on the cross bought us out of our prior condition and put us, all mankind, under the New Covenant in His blood.."
    Misrepresented meaning:
    All humanity, by your assertion, is no longer separated from God.

    Did I say since Christ became the means of salvation via the New Covenant, all mankind was no longer separated from God. Nope.

    Did you provide a quote where I said all mankind was washed with His blood? Nope
    Did you provide a quote where I said our faith "causes God" to credit our faith? Nope

    Pay no attention to this fabricator of falsehoods.
     
  16. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Their very persons...body, soul and spirit.
    1 Corinthians 6:12-20.

    "Ye are bought with a price..."
    Van, I don't see where the Bible ever uses this language to describe who the Lord Jesus sacrificed Himself for...
    That all of mankind "can" obtain the righteousness of God;
    As if it is some sort of potential waiting for people to act, which then "releases" that righteousness to them.

    Rather, I clearly see that all those for whom Christ died for have already obtained the righteousness of God through Jesus Christ, when He died for them and rose again:

    " But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:"

    " But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
    9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
    10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
    11 And not only [so], but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement."

    " And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
    14 blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

    To put it plainly, all of God's people, the "whosoever believeth", have already obtained the righteousness of God through their Saviour, Jesus Christ.
    It happened at the cross, when payment was made for their sins.

    That is when the blotting out of the handwriting of ordinances that was against them ( the Law ) was performed.
     
    #16 Dave G, Apr 21, 2023
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2023
  17. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    I see that the difference between being bought with the blood of Christ and being washed by it, is this:

    Being bought means being purchased out of the hand of the devil, from the curse of the Law, and from the wrath of God that will be carried out upon all those for whom the Lord Jesus did not give Himself...
    Eternal torment in the Lake of Fire.

    Being washed is a figurative washing in the eyes of God whereby God the Father recognized the worth of His own Son's blood, as an atoning sacrifice, that resulted in Him casting those sins behind His back for all eternity. It was not and is not a literal "washing" like in water, but a spiritual "washing" of sins away from the presence of a holy God who will not and cannot condone even the most minute disobedience to His will and commands. Our baptism in water, as God's children, is a symbol of our already being "washed" by His Son's blood...

    and this washing happened, again, at the cross when His blood was shed.
     
    #17 Dave G, Apr 21, 2023
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2023
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  18. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    How have I misrepresented what you very clearly stated? If all humanity is under the New Covenant in Jesus blood, how can they be separated from God?


    You say: "Christ’s sacrifice on the cross bought us out of our prior condition and put us, all mankind, under the New Covenant in His blood.."

    You declare that Jesus bought all humanity and put all humanity under the New Covenant, which means he fulfilled the New Covenant for all humans and gave them the inheritance of the Will. (Hebrews 9)

    I quoted you exactly as you have stated and what you state means that all humans have been bought and paid for.

    I quoted you, exactly, and you say:
    "However, only when God credits our faith in Christ as righteousness and places us spiritually in Christ, do we receive the reconciliation provided by Christ’s sacrifice on the cross."

    Look in the mirror.
     
  19. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    But what was bought? The means of salvation.. Christ became our mercy seat, and through Him, we can obtain the righteousness of God.

    Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all - thus He sacrificed Himself for all mankind.

    Everyone believing into Him shall not perish but have everlasting life offers the "righteousness of God" to all mankind.

    I did not say anything of that sort. Folks, note they do not address what I say, they make up nonsense and ascribe the idea to me.
     
  20. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Since the righteous of God is through faith, only those who come to faith then obtain the righteous of God.

    Recall 2 Thessalonians 2:13, God chose individuals for salvation through faith in the truth, so no one can be chosen individually before the come to faith. The claim everyone obtained the righteousness of God before they were chosen for salvation through faith is hogwash.
     
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