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Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by 37818, Feb 9, 2024.

  1. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Total Depravity: The lost can only be saved by means of a gift, Romans 6:23, Ephesians 2:8.

    Unmerited Conditional Election: One cannot be elect except by means of faith in the gospel, Ephesians 2:8, Romans 1:16.

    Limited Not Atonement: A not limited Atonement is necessary in order for one to really know Christ gives one eternal life, 1 John 2:2, 1 John 5:9-13.

    Irresistible Grace: Salvation is a gift, Ephesians 2:8, Romans 6:23, 1 John 5:13.

    Perseverance of the Saints: God who does the saving does the keeping, John 10:27-30.
     
  2. MrW

    MrW Well-Known Member

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    Perseverance is your work.

    Preservation of the saints is God’s work in the saints.
     
  3. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Your argument is given without a Biblical support.
     
  4. MrW

    MrW Well-Known Member

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    Look up both words in a dictionary.

    Here we are, sealed up like peach preserves—Preserved—

    Ephesians 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
    13 ¶ In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise.

    Here we are, kept, i.e., preserved.

    1 Peter 1: 3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
    4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
    5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
     
  5. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    My reference I used was John 10:27-30, My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one.

    So my argument, God who saves, keeps whom He saves. The Scriptures you referenced does not contradict this.
     
  6. MrW

    MrW Well-Known Member

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    I also thought of using that same passage but didn’t want to type so much.

    No, there’s no contradiction. They all agree. We do not stay saved because we are so great at perseverance—we stay saved because God is so great at preservation, preserving us.
     
  7. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    If God looks at something we do (faith in the gospel) and responds with election”, then that is the very definition of a works based salvation.

    If God “elects” for salvation based in His will and desire, directs God Holy Spirit to work upon that person and then that person responds with faith in the gospel, you have Grace.

    That is “unconditional, unmerited election”

    peace to you.
     
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  8. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    How if Romans 4:5, But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. ?
     
  9. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    False. John 10:28, that "never perish" means not in any way. . . . ου μη . . . .
     
  10. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Great passage. I believe every word of it.

    That passage says nothing about election.

    peace to you
     
  11. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Joh_6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

    Rom 1:16...the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

    Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvationhaving also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

    1Ti 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
    1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

    Joh 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

    Your right we do not see "election" mentioned but we do see:
    1] the work of God, that you believe in Him
    2] the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes
    3] after listening to the gospel having also believed you were sealed in Him
    4] by grace you have been saved through faith
    5] God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
    6] God sent the Son so that the world could be saved through Him

    So if God "elects" as you say "for salvation based in His will and desire" then all would be elected. So your understanding of scripture must be in error that is unless you think God was being disingenuous when He said He desires all men to be saved.

    God's desire is for all to be saved but He will only save those that have a personal faith.
    Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved
    through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

    Calvinist's want man to be saved before they can believe but then you have to ask, why faith is necessary and why the cross was necessary.
    For the calvinist it is only if you were one of the lucky ones to be picked before the foundation of the world. But since they can only hope that they were actually one of those so chosen you have to ask what hope do they really have? What they call faith may in fact be just wishful thinking.
     
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  12. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    [QUOTE="canadyjd, post: 2877274, member: 3 passage. I believe every word of it.

    That passage says nothing about election.

    peace to you[/QUOTE]

    The Unconditional election does not exist in the written word of God.

    Election is a specific type of choosing.
     
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  13. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Through faith in Christ we become children of God.

    Christ bears the original blessing which only becomes ours when we become included into him through faith.
    None of us are literally seated in heavenly realms. But Christ is, and we are in Christ through faith; therefore, in Christ, we are seated in the heavenly realms. So to be chosen in Christ means the same as being righteous in Christ, holy in Christ, and sons in Christ.
    Christ is the one chosen from before the creation of the world. In Christ, we become chosen in him from before the creation of the world. Thus, “when believers come to be in Christ by faith, they come to share in his history, identity, and destiny.
     
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  14. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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  15. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Romans 4:5 is not talking about election.

    That mankind cannot exercise a saving faith unless/until God Holy moves upon that person with regeneration, enabling them to have faith, does not change the truth their faith is 1. Necessary for salvation and 2. Their faith is counted as righteousness.

    This truth points to God’s mercy in election, regeneration, salvation, sanctification and ultimately living forever in His presence.

    If God responds to something a person does in “electing” them for salvation, it is a works based system of salvation.

    If mankind responds to God’s work in their lives through the power of God Holy Spirit, it is grace.

    peace to you
     
  16. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    The phrase “unconditional election” may not be used. It is certainly taught in God’s word in many places.

    peace to you
     
  17. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    I am of the point of view one is not of the elect until one is saved. Not before.
     
  18. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    I understand your view and have stated my opinion of it.

    If God “elects” someone for salvation based on what they do, it is a works based salvation.

    If God “elects” prior to salvation, and then uses the power of God Holy Spirit to bring that person to salvation, that is unmerited favor (grace)

    peace to you
     
  19. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Will, there is no works based salvation in my view. And salvation precedes the election. Both per Scripture.
     
  20. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    It is also my understanding God chose us before the foundation of the world, per Fphesians 1:4, which I understand precedes being elect as per Mark 13:20.
     
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