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Featured Christ died for all man

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by JonC, Jan 18, 2024.

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  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Your understanding of my position is partially correct. Christ's incarnation and death had an effect on all man (the saved and the lost) in that Judgment is, because of Christ's work, a Christ-centeted judgment. All judgment has been given to Him and all men are judged positionally on the basis of Christ.

    But we are merely talking (thus far) of God's solidarity with mankind based in Christ and looking at His death.

    Redemption is Christ - His incarnation, death, and resurrection.

    We cannot reduce redemption to Christ dying. But His death was the climax of His incarnation.

    I do not understand why you believe (if I understand you correctly) that Jesus dying for the sins of all men would mean that person is saved. If you can help me out here I'd appreciate it.
     
  2. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Well, I am in the minority, but I am not a PSA advocate, but merely a fan of a form of Christus Victor (Jesus died to achieve, what he actually DID achieve).

    So “We are saved by the blood of Christ” means that:
    • “By His stripes we are healed” … IN CONTEXT - that is a healing of the relationship between men (me, specifically) and GOD. That relationship was broken at the Adamic curse (the same curse that brought death, seems to have granted us the gift of being BORN bent and predisposed to naturally miss the mark). Not that “Original Sin” really matters, experientially, I have been more than capable of EARNING damnation even without any help from Adam (or Satan).
    • Which brings us to the reality of Ephesians 2:1-10. We start out dead and God makes us alive. We walk in sin and live as children of wrath, but God gives us a gift. It is NOT of our work, and even our ultimate good works are prepared in advance by God.
    • JESUS makes all this possible. His incarnation, His life, His death, the blood of the New Covenant shed for us, and His ultimate resurrection/ascension.

    Thus, for me, “we are saved by the blood of Christ” covers a LOT of ground. His human blood marking God’s incarnation, His shed blood as the Passover Lamb, His Sin offering as High Priest, His Cup of the New Covenant, His cleansing blood that washes away our sin, even His blood that flows through our veins as we are a new creation remade in His image … a deposit foreshadowing what is yet to come. It is physical, symbolic and metaphysical.
     
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  3. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    We hold a similar position here (Christus Victor).

    I agree with your meaning of "saved by the blood of Jesus".

    In a way, though, I think we have been talking past one another.

    I believe that Christ died to save only those who would believe. That is not all men. You point this out with the description you give of being saved by the blood of Christ. Not all men are saved by the blood of Christ. Not all are reconciled to God.

    I was speaking very narrowly of Christ's death. Scripture tells us this was God reconciling God to mankind but from there there is the ministry of reconciliation where we urge men to be reconciled to God.
     
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  4. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Where exactly is that in scripture, 'saved' by the blood of Jesus? Romans 5:9. Are you saying justification and salvation are the same?
     
  5. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    What I see from this below is that;
    God First gives us the Pardon of our sin, in the Act of Saving our soul.

    The writing in red is from the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith.

    "Those whom God effectually calleth, he also freely justifieth,
    not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins",

    it next says that God Pardoned our sins,
    "by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous;

    The way God sees our person as "righteous",
    that He then, "accounts" and "accepts", in order to Parton our sins is;

    God gives us Faith in the Divine Person and Object of our Faith
    when God gives us, is His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, as our Savior
    and it is Jesus, Who as the Object of our Faith,
    Who had Lived a Perfect Life
    of Active Obedience to the whole law.

    And, that it was Jesus Perfect Life that He had laid down in Passive Obedience
    to the death of the cross, where it says,


    "Christ's active obedience unto the whole law,
    and passive obedience in his death",

    which is when and were Jesus' Righteousness that He had Obtained,
    was Sacrificed and Made an Offering for sin,
    and God the Father's Justice was Satisfied, so that:

    JESUS' RIGHTEOUSNESS WAS THEN CREDITED to OUR SOUL.

    JESUS' RIGHTEOUSNESS WAS GIVEN OR CREDITED OR ACCOUNTED
    OR "IMPUTED" to OUR SOIL AS THEN BEING OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS;

    "by imputing Christ's active obedience unto the whole law,
    and passive obedience in his death
    for their whole and sole righteousness by faith".


    Jesus' Righteousness was imputed and given to us
    and God then SEES US as RIGHTEOUS.

    GOD SEES US AS POSSESSING JESUS' RIGHTEOUSNESS, BECAUSE WE DO.

    When, God then sees OUR RIGHTEOUS SOUL,

    (that is Jesus' Perfect Life and Righteousness which He had Obtained
    by Living His Entire Lifetime Perfectly under the Moral Law of God,

    that He then Sacrificed in our place and God in turn gave and credited
    Jesus' Perfect Life and Righteousness to us, as if we had Lived Perfect)

    then, what happens, when God sees us as having No Sin Credited to us?

    Since, out slate of sins has been wiped clean and we are blessed
    to be among those to whom God Does Not IMPUTE INIQUITY / SIN !!!

    We are Rendered Not Guilty. Our sins Have been Pardoned.

    We have been washed in the Blood of The Lamb of God and Eternally Saved.

    So, what does God then instantly do?

    We have no sin for Him to charge us with
    and The Sovereign Lord God of Heaven THEN? ...Declares us Justified.


    (Why so long a post? To answer your question.)


    "Are you saying justification and salvation are the same?"

    Salvation comes by Jesus' Work of Active Obedience under the Law
    and His Passive Obedience of being Obedient to the death of the cross,

    as being Accepted by God in our place,

    And How Do We KNOW that God Accepted Jesus' Payment in our place???

    Because, on the Third Day, what happened?

    Jesus Raised from the Dead!!!

    This is Our Eternal Salvation Experience, at which time God grants us
    the New Birth with Repentance toward God and Faith in Jesus Christ,

    AS GOD HAS ACCEPTED JESUS' DEATH, BURIAL, AND RESURRECTION,
    FOR OUR, "whole and sole righteousness by faith,

    which faith they have not of themselves; it is the gift of God."

    and Jesus' RIGHTEOUSNESS is then Imputed to us.

    When God has seen OUR RIGHTEOUS and our sin has been Pardoned
    and we are then Forever Justified, true to the scripture in Romans,

    "those He Calls, them He also Justifies." Romans 8:30.

    "not for anything wrought in them, or done by them,
    but for Christ's sake alone;

    "not by imputing faith itself, or the act of believing,
    or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness;

    but by imputing Christ's active obedience unto the whole law,
    and passive obedience in his death

    "for their whole and sole righteousness by faith,
    which faith they have not of themselves; it is the gift of God."


    Then, we see, as we go back to the beginning of their quote, below;

    "Those whom God effectually calleth, ...he also freely justifieth,
    ...not by infusing righteousness into them, ...
    but by (first) pardoning their sins",(...then, justifying their soul.)

    Are
    "justification and salvation are the same?"

    We are Justified, after we are Pardoned of our sin, in Salvation.

    Those God Calls to Eternal Salvation are also Justified.



    See if that is what you think it says here
    :

    THE BAPTIST CONFESSION OF FAITH.
    The 1689 London Baptist Confession.
    Chapter 11: Of Justification.

    1._____ Those whom God effectually calleth, he also freely justifieth, not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous; not for anything wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ's sake alone; not by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness; but by imputing Christ's active obedience unto the whole law, and passive obedience in his death for their whole and sole righteousness by faith, which faith they have not of themselves; it is the gift of God.

    ( Romans 3:24; Romans 8:30; Romans 4:5-8; Ephesians 1:7;
    1 Corinthians 1:30, 31; Romans 5:17-19; Philippians 3:8, 9;
    Ephesians 2:8-10; John 1:12; Romans 5:17 )
     
    #5 Alan Gross, Jan 19, 2024
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2024
  6. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    I have long been an advocate of Christus Victor, I know that sin is powerful; death is powerful; but they are not all powerful. The promise of the New Testament witness to the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus is that through them God has overcome the power of sin, death, and the devil. These are no longer the destiny of those who are in Christ, who have been set free from sin and death. Indeed, Christ is the victor!
     
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  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    It's a Bob Dylan song. :Biggrin

    I was thinking Ephesians 1 and 1 Peter where redemption through His blood. This purchase applies universally, but it is also the basis of our salvation from the wrath to come (it is this obedience that Scripture attributes to judgment being given to Christ, and His glorification as God-Man).
     
  8. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Let's get back to "Christ died for all man" ... and specifically, the "all man" portion of the title. That's the part that rubs against my fur.

    I have ZERO issues with applying any aspect of Christ's death or Blood or accomplishment or mediation or anything else towards anyone that will ultimately spend eternity worshiping God in Heaven. We can set that aside for a moment to "de-clutter" the field. What I struggle with is whether there is any benefit for those that will NOT spend eternity in Heaven.

    If you will indulge me, I would like to move from hypothetical to both practical and VERY personal:

    When I was a 'tween', my father took me aside and explained to me that a TREE produces a SEED. Within that SEED is all of the genetic information needed to create a Complete New TREE. This SEED/NEW TREE contains the same genetic code as the parent TREE that created it. This SEED will fall to the ground and begin to grow a NEW TREE. In time, the OLD TREE will die and decompose. The roots of the NEW TREE will draw in the very Carbon and Hydrogen and Oxygen Atoms that had formed the OLD TREE and those Atoms will be recycled and continue to exist in the NEW TREE. "That is as close as any human being will ever come to eternity." - my Father concluded.

    Given the insight from the story on my father's unchanged view of God and the afterlife, what - consequence, benefit or impact - did the death of Jesus have on my Father? [We will, for this discussion, assume the unknowable ... that his past/present view will remain unchanged until he MEETS God face to face.]

    • Did Jesus DIE for him, specifically?
    • Does he derive any benefit from Jesus death?
    • How is life different that it would be if Jesus had NOT died for him?
    The question, simply put, is "Does Jesus death matter to the Reprobate"? Exactly how?
     
  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Did/does Jesus' death (I would say incarnation, death, and resurrection) matter to those who never believe?

    Yes. It matters because they had the opportunity to believe. If a man is dying of a disease the cure matters even if he refuses to take it.

    Do they benefit from Christ's work? No. Quite the opposite. They remain in their sins and face a greater condemnation than they would have had Christ not come and they remained in Sheol. Their condemnation is that they have rejected the Light.

    It pains me to say this, and I sincerely don't mean to offend or appear insensitive (we all probably have lost lived ones), but given your illustration it would mean that your father will face a Christ-centeted judgment (the Second Death) that he would not have faced had Christ not died for him.

    That said, Sheol was always a temporary thing because redemption was not an afterthought.
     
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  10. MrW

    MrW Well-Known Member

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    Romans 5:9
    Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
     
  11. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    1 Timothy 2:4, ". . . Who will have all men to be saved, . . ."
    But Revelation 20:15, ". . . whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. . . ."
    So it will be all men are not saved.
     
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  12. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    What doyou mean by a ‘second death?
     
  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Hell. (When death and Shoal is cast into the Lake of Fire.....Judgment,).
     
  14. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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  15. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Are we all responsible for not being saved? Is a blind man responsible for hitting a fast ball pitch?
     
  16. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Christ did die for all men, of His Sheep, from all nations, and with that, He redeemed them unto God by His dying for them Rev 5:9

    9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
     
  17. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    It is the providential will of God to provide salvation to the whole world of guilty sinners who are made sinners as a result of their physical and natural births. There is not one sinner who is more condemned to be separated from God for all eternity than another sinner because of his sin. It was one sin by Adam that introduced sin into the world and death was the result for him and all his offspring. All of his family are born with his fallen image and are like him.

    One sinner is not more dead than another sinner. A son of Adam is guilty of sin when he becomes intellectually conscious of good and evil and with knowledge and understanding and will and forethought chooses to do evil when the circumstance of choice presents itself. The first sin he ever commits will condemn him to eternal separation from God unless God makes a way for the sin to be forgotten by God.Certainly the sinner cannot provide a solution for his sin and God being omniscient and omnipresent and seeing all things at all times at the same time must find a way to remove sin from the sinner so he will not see it again if he is motivated to save the sinner. The fact that Adam was condemned to death by one sin should be convincing enough of this truth. That sin for him resulted in immediate separation from the personal fellowship of God's presence in him and his eventual physical death when his soul departed his body, his body going back to the dust from whence it came and his eternal soul being dispensed by God to a place prepared for it. All created things require a place.

    If a man is not "in Christ" who has paid the sin debt for all men in a once for all time sacrifice in his own body on a tree where the omnipresent and omniscient God can no longer see his sins because of the righteousness of Christ, God can see that pencil you stole from a classmate when you were in the second grade and you are condemned by God for it because you knew in your heart that it was wrong and you did it anyways.If this sin is not put away somehow then God will never cease seeing it. It will always be between God and you as something that separates you.

    So, here is what God did and the effacacy of his action is denied by almost every poster that contributes to this forum, especially by the Reformed believers. God took away sin! I am not guessing about that. It is what God said. If God took away sin it means that he is reconciled to sinners. But God is just. He is the judge of all the earth. He reconciled sinners to himself, not by hocus - pocus, because he cannot violate his own righteous character, but by providing a substitute for sinners that is not guilty of any sin. The sentence against sin must be realized in order for him to do this. Sin has the penalty of death, both spiritual and physical. So God looked down on the earth and found that there was not a man in all the earth that doeth good and sinneth not (remember that God is omnipresent and omniscient and can see all things at one time), so he decided to come himself in the person of a man, even in the weakness of men, to live as he did and never sin and so provide redemption for all men who will receive it.

    What is the evidence that God has reconciled himself to ALL sinners and not just a few? The evidence is the result of the ministry of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, whose first coming was like any man who occupied one place at one time and was limited in what he could do for the whole world. Therefore he ministered in the geographical location of Israel only and to the Jews. But God says the reason he came into the world was to save sinners and until his ministry God was angry with sinners every day. But through his sinless life and then his sacrifice on the cross where he died spiritually by being separated from God (my God, my God, why hath thou forsaken me) and then by giving up the soul from the body, he finished paying the penalty of sin, which is death. According to 2 Cor 5:21 Jesus Christ on that cross became the personification of sin and God punished him as if he was in all men.

    What was next after Jesus was raised bodily from the dead? His body was raised by the Spirit of God, who had indwelt his mortal body while he ministered on the earth. The Spirit raised and glorified his body and indwelt it along with his soul which returned from paradise where he had been for three days. He then ascended back to heaven where he sits now on the right hand of the Father on his thone awaiting his return to earth.

    The reconciliation of the whole world because on his death, burial, and resurrection is witnessed by the fact that, because of the effacacy of this sacrifice, God sent his Spirit from heaven in such abundance that the whole world was "baptized" by the Spirit. By baptism is meant that the whole world is immersed by the spirit. This is reconciliation. So now God is among us in the person of the omnipresent Spirit of God and of Christ. He says in one place in Acts 17 that all may come to him because he is not far from every one of us. God has established the doctrine of baptism in order to symbolize this truth of the work of the Spirit during this time on the earth. He is like rain water that falls from heaven at the will of the Father to give life to all the world and it falls all over the world and in such abundance that all may drink and live.There is no restriction of who may drink but drinking must be accomplished by the individual. No one can drink for another. The life giving water must be in the body in order to give life to the individual. Without it he will die after a time. No individual or group of individuals can capitalize on it and charge for it because of the abundance. It is free for all and without charge.

    God sent the Spirit, first to his people Israel because of his promise in the old times to them, and then ten years later he baptized the whole world by the Spirit. All the world is invited to come to God through Jesus Christ and drink of the water of life. Whosoever will drink will live. The way to drink is to believe in Jesus Christ as the only way to God and it completes the reconciliation. The sinner is now reconciled to God when he drinks.

    We are warned that just as the Spirit was given at a particular period in time at the beginning of this age, so shall he be taken away at the end of this age when sinners will no longer believe and drink and then sinful men will no longer have an advocate and the world will return as it was before the sacrifice of Christ and the pouring out of the Spirit of God and God will again be angry with sinners every day.until all the sinners are destroyed from the earth, every one of them and God can begin anew for the third time over an earth without sinners in it.


    Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
    15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
    16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
    17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
    18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

    Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
    44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
    45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    .
    Acts 11:1 And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.
    2 And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him,
    3 Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them.
    4 But Peter rehearsed the matter from the beginning, and expounded it by order unto them, saying,

    Acts 11:12 And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house:
    13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
    14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
    15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
    16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
    17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
    18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

    This is a baptism of the whole world with the Holy Ghost, and God the Father did it. This shows for a fact that God really was reconciled to the world because Jesus Christ by his death put sin away and their individual sins are no longer imputed to sinners while they live in the body but they may drink the water that God has abundantly provided through Jesus Christ.

    He 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

    The message from God and the churches:

    Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

    Do not allow false teachers to keep you from drinking of the living fountain.
     
  18. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    You gotta be kidding me?
     
  19. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The first question, yes. Romans 2:11-16, Revelation 20:11-15. The second question is irrational. So no.
     
  20. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Ahh,so you are not a base ball player so why answer the question with any degree of reason right. In order to hit the ball when you are in the batters box you must be coordinated & have great eye sight ( to follow the balls tagectory, and if you don't see it well then chances are great you will wiff… try another game son. That’s what I told kids who tried out for my team cause I wanted to make sure they understood that it wasn’t personal but you don’t have what it takes to play baseball and win.

    So just like in baseball , in the tryout stage where we coaches watch you to display hitting, fielding, running skills etc.

    In your system of salvation there is always a chance to be saved ( like making the team ), there must also be a chance not to be saved (making the team). So I have a question for you, Does God work by "chance" or by "purpose"? Or in a coach… do I take a chance on this guy or is he capable with my coaching to become a productive team member? You see by now I’m thinking that Gods Plan of Salvation is based, not upon anything in man, but upon His own sovereign purpose and grace which was laid up in Christ (his batting coach) before the world began. But let’s cut to the chase shall we… As to the fairness of God's plan of salvation, we might state that all men have an equal chance to save themselves. If any will live completely above sin and keep every precept of the law, he then will have all the blessings of the law. The only trouble with this system is that salvation has never come by keeping the law; and beyond that, no man has yet been able to keep the law with the exception of the Man Christ Jesus. If man could save himself, God would not have sent His Son to pay the price of sin.
     
    #20 Earth Wind and Fire, Jan 20, 2024
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2024
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