1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Context of Acts 13:48

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Revmitchell, Dec 23, 2022.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    6,586
    Likes Received:
    511
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Are you suggesting that all the bible is prophecy? While somethings are determined by God not all things can be determined by God or we have God being responsible for all things including evil. Thing through the DoG and work them out to the logical conclusion. Where do they place God?
     
  2. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    52,015
    Likes Received:
    3,649
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Uh no you haven't dealt with the context as you ignored it to defend your ideological stance on a single word.
     
  3. unprofitable

    unprofitable Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2017
    Messages:
    397
    Likes Received:
    61
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Let me clarify the statement where you knowingly twisted what I said. Why would God want to give grace to someone that he knows will not come to Christ? You say that there might be someone, a possibility, therefore an unknown, who would need it. If that is the case, then God did not know. Simple as that. You can't have it both ways.

    What happens to the grace given to all the men that never come to Christ? Isaiah 55:11 says, So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereunto I sent it. You idea that grace is given to all men contradicts this verse. It clearly shows that whatever the Lord shall decree, it shall happen. If God has given grace to all men, then it will accomplish its purpose, and not only that, it will prosper in it. So God has not given grace to all men or all men would be saved. Grace is always with purpose. 2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus, GIVEN US BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN. Grace given, purpose accomplished, being saved with a holy calling. Grace ALWAYS ACCOMPLISHES its PURPOSE.
     
    #63 unprofitable, Dec 26, 2022
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2022
  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    27,254
    Likes Received:
    1,039
    Faith:
    Baptist
    LOL, my post provided the context of the meaning as determined from other scripture using the same word.

    The context reveals an arrangement by mutual consent in all the passive voice usages.
     
  5. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2020
    Messages:
    2,469
    Likes Received:
    204
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Here is the major theological division that must be considered in this chapter that involves the very obvious two groups that are being addressed on this occasion that is most important. These two distinctions gives clear context.

    The word of God - written by Israel and to them.
    Ac 13:14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.
    15 And after the reading of the law and the prophets
    16 Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with [his] hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience.
    17 The God of this people of Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people
    22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the [son] of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. 23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:
    <end of OT testimony> next, fulfillment in Jesus.

    26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.
    27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.


    The gospel that must be believed.
    28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain.
    29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid ihm in a sepulchre.
    30 But God raised him from the dead:

    32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, (the gospel) how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, (of Israel)

    33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their (the fathers of Israel) children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

    38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren (Paul's kinfolk, Israel), that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

    This is the sure mercies of David, who committed a death penalty sin, (like these men did by putting an innocent man to death, Jesus Christ) but will have forgiveness through his being begotten again at the tomb when he was raised from the dead, if they believe. The resurrection is proof to the Jews that he fulfills all the promises given in the word of God, which they wrote and studied every sabbath day.

    The second division, the gentiles.

    42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath

    Think. These gentiles realized that the appeal to be saved was made to Israel and the Jews but this followed and a new dynamic is introduced now because of the reaction of the Jews of unbelief.

    Look. Unlike the sermon to the Jews, Luke highlighted the salient points to them, but he did not record any of the sermon to the gentiles. One thing is certain, it was much different than what he had preached to the Jews. He would have not referred to OT scriptures and he would not have encouraged them to believe in Jesus with an argument before the cross of Christ.

    So, the second point is "the word of the Lord." The things that Paul preached to gentiles was not based on what God had given through the OT prophets and was written in books and called scripture, "the word of God.". He would have told them about what the Lord had showed and told him. These were mysteries hidden in time past and revealed especially through Paul as they related to gentiles. Paul had three encounters with the resurrected Jesus in his lifetime. The gentiles glorified the word of the Lord by believing it and were thus appointed to eternal life.

    There is much more to say about this passage but I will quote what Paul says about these days in his epistles where he explains the history of his ministry.

    Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

    Eph 3:1 For this cause (of forming the church) I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: 7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. 8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

    Luke was not given the responsibility of revealing the church doctrines in a historical record such as Acts. He told what happened. It is careless and irresponsible for anyone to build a theological hierarchy from a single verse in the book of Acts when the intent of the writer was not to address theology. This is especially true since we know this is a time of great transition. The word of the Lord is about the mysteries of this age going forward.

    There is much more to know and I will come back later and we can talk about it some more.
     
  6. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    27,254
    Likes Received:
    1,039
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Great topic as this is often misconstrued to support false doctrine.

    The Greek word translated "appointed" in the OP version of the verse, refers to an agreement by mutual consent. Since another Greek word (also translated as "appointed" refers to a unilateral assignment, some claim it was God who had "appointed" them unilaterally. Utter nonsense.

    They had received direction from Paul as to the Good News, and as many as agreed with and took that direction for eternal life, believed.

    TLB
    When the Gentiles heard this, they were very glad and rejoiced in Paul’s message; and as many as wanted eternal life, believed.

    For example say someone is "placed" under authority and then gives direction to others. He has accepted the arrangement established by another. See Luke 7:8 for an example of contextual usage.

    Romans 13:1 teaches that the governing authorities have been "established" by God, but note they are governing which shows their agreement with the arrangement. Again an example of contextual usage.

    In Acts 22:10 Paul is sent to Damascus, as he has agreed to do what the Lord has arranged. Third example of contextual usage.

    In all the "passive" arrangements the participant agrees with the direction given and participates.

    Acts 13:48, Yet the Gentiles hearing this rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and as many as were in agreement with the arrangement into everlasting life believed.

    Thus not a scintilla of support for unilateral individual election prior to belief.
     
  7. unprofitable

    unprofitable Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2017
    Messages:
    397
    Likes Received:
    61
    Faith:
    Baptist
    There you go doing it again. I said that the bible is chocked full of prophesy, not all the bible is prophesy.

    No God is not responsible for wickedness. When satan decided to place himself above God, he sinned in his rebellion. He is the author of evil. He did not have a sinless nature and fell as a result. Neither did Adam, and in his fall we have fallen. The only thing a fallen creature can freely do is sin. Why would God give grace and its associated purpose to someone who cannot possibly use it/cause to accomplish the edifying of the body of Christ, without first being made alive?
     
    #67 unprofitable, Dec 26, 2022
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2022
  8. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    27,254
    Likes Received:
    1,039
    Faith:
    Baptist
    God is not the author of evil. That has a nice ring to it. However, answer this, if God knows the future exhaustively, then that foreknown future, including sin, must occur, otherwise God would be mistaken. I assume we agree God is never mistaken?
     
  9. unprofitable

    unprofitable Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2017
    Messages:
    397
    Likes Received:
    61
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I agree God is never mistaken but my main point concerning satan and fallen man that will never receive the grace of God is better explained by Christ telling the Jews in John 8:44, "Ye are of you father the devil and his works (not only fleshly but doctrinally) ye will do. All fallen man can do, without Christ making him alive, is sin. They cannot declare the only true God and his righteousness. (John 17:3) Christ is aware and tells them such. I hope I answered your question.

    Just thought of one last verse. Jeremiah 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good that are accustomed to do evil.
     
  10. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    6,586
    Likes Received:
    511
    Faith:
    Baptist
    @unprofitable you are still reading scripture through you determinist lens.
    I keep telling you that God in omniscient but you do not seem to grasp that idea. God knows who will come to faith but He does not cause them to do so. Take a good hard look at your determinism and see where it leads, it is not a place I want to go.
     
  11. unprofitable

    unprofitable Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2017
    Messages:
    397
    Likes Received:
    61
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Please respond to my post, number 67
     
  12. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    6,586
    Likes Received:
    511
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Your funny, you say i twist your words when I quote you and then you put words in my mouth that I did not say.

    You want me to agree with your deterministic view that is not biblical so why would I do that? I have answered your question a number of times now and you just keep repeating the question worded slightly differently. The answer is not going to change. God is omniscient thus knows what will happen but does not have to cause it to happen. Because He is sovereign He can and actually has given man a free will so that they can and do make actual destiny impacting choices. You do not like the idea that God does not control all choices but then balk at the actual implication of your view when it is pointed out to you.

    You seem to be looking at the grace of God as if it were a substance eg a pound of grace like a pound of butter. If the person does not use the allotted "pound of grace" then it is just thrown in the trash. You have a strange idea of God's grace.
     
  13. unprofitable

    unprofitable Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2017
    Messages:
    397
    Likes Received:
    61
    Faith:
    Baptist
     
  14. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    6,586
    Likes Received:
    511
    Faith:
    Baptist
    From the deterministic view that you have been putting forward in your posts you have made God the one responsible for all the evil in the world. But you refuse to follow your errant view through to the logical end. Why is that? Since your version of God has to determine all things then man can not freely sin as they are controlled by God. You have taken a person who is dead in sin, spiritually separated form God, and made it so that they can not even respond to the gospel message but the funny thing is that God expects them to be able to do just that and holds them responsible for the choice they make.

    How many times have we been told on BB that nothing happens unless God has decreed it. You have to pick a lane. If God as calvinists insist determines all things that means all things not just the things they like.

    Did satan have a free will and what about Adam? If they did when did they loose that free will? Now here is God speaking to Adam perhaps you can point out where he lost his free will:
    Gen 3:17 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life.
    Gen 3:18 "Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you will eat the plants of the field;
    Gen 3:19 By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."
     
  15. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    6,586
    Likes Received:
    511
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You do seem to have a problem understanding my posts. Man does not save himself but God saves those that trust in His son.
    Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
    Eph 1:14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

    Rom 10:14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
    Note the order Paul describes here.
    1) The saved are those who call on the name of the Lord.
    2) They call because they believe.
    3) They believe because they heard.
    4) They heard because a preacher shared the Gospel.
    Working backwards, Hearing the Gospel →Believing the Gospel →Calling on God → Salvation through the grace of God


    Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

    @unprofitable it is really not that hard to understand once you get past the fog of calvinism.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  16. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    10,911
    Likes Received:
    1,458
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Today's Solid Joy devotional, "How to Contemplate Calamity", speaks to the present arguments being brought up.

    “The waves of death encompassed me, the torrents of destruction assailed me. . . . This God — his way is perfect.” (2 Samuel 22:5, 31)

    After the loss of his ten children owing to a natural disaster (Job 1:19), Job said, “The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord” (Job 1:21). At the end of the book, the inspired writer confirms Job’s understanding of what happened. He says Job’s brothers and sisters “comforted him for all the evil that the Lord had brought upon him” (Job 42:11).

    This has several crucial implications for us — lessons for us here at the dawn of a new year — as we think about calamities in the world and in our lives — like the massive disaster that occurred December 26, 2004, in the Indian Ocean — one of the deadliest natural disasters on record with 1.7 million people made homeless, half a million injured, and over 230,000 killed.

    Lesson #1. Satan is not ultimate; God is.

    Satan had a hand in Job’s misery, but not the decisive hand. God gave Satan permission to afflict Job (Job 1:12; 2:6). But Job and the writer of this book treat God as the decisive cause. When Satan afflicts Job with sores, Job says to his wife, “Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil?” (Job 2:10), and the writer calls these satanic sores “the evil that the Lord had brought upon him” (Job 42:11). So, Satan is real. Satan brings misery. But Satan is not ultimate or decisive. He is on a leash. He goes no farther than God decisively permits.

    Lesson #2. Even if Satan caused that tsunami in the Indian Ocean the day after Christmas, 2004, he is not the decisive cause of over 200,000 deaths; God is.

    God claims power over tsunamis in Job 38:8 and 11 when he asks Job rhetorically, “Who shut in the sea with doors when it burst out from the womb . . . and said, ‘Thus far shall you come, and no farther, and here shall your proud waves be stayed’?” Psalm 89:8–9 says, “O Lord . . . you rule the raging of the sea; when its waves rise, you still them.” And Jesus himself has the same control today as he once did over the deadly threats of waves: “He . . . rebuked the wind and the raging waves, and they ceased, and there was a calm” (Luke 8:24). In other words, even if Satan caused the earthquake, God could have stopped the waves. But he didn’t.

    Lesson #3. Destructive calamities in this world mingle judgment and mercy.

    God’s purposes are not simple. Job was a godly man and his miseries were not God’s punishment (Job 1:1, 8). Their design was purifying, not punishment (Job 42:6). James 5:11 says, “You have heard of the steadfastness of Job, and you have seen the purpose of the Lord, how the Lord is compassionate and merciful.”

    But we do not know the spiritual condition of Job’s children who died. Job was certainly concerned about them (Job 1:5). God may have taken their life in judgment. We don’t know.

    If that is true, then the same calamity proved in the end to be mercy for Job and judgment on his children. This double purpose is true of all calamities. They mingle judgment and mercy. They are both punishment and purification. Suffering, and even death, can be both judgment and mercy at the same time.

    The clearest illustration of this is the death of Jesus. It was both judgment and mercy. It was judgment on Jesus because he bore our sins (not his own), and it was mercy toward us who trust him to bear our punishment (Galatians 3:13; 1 Peter 2:24) and be our righteousness (2 Corinthians 5:21).

    Another example is the curse and miseries that have come on this earth because of the fall of Adam and Eve. Those who never believe in Christ experience it as judgment, but believers experience it as merciful, though painful — a preparation for glory. “The creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope” (Romans 8:20). This is God’s subjection. This is why there are tsunamis. But this subjection to futility is “in hope.”

    Lesson #4. The heart that Christ gives to his people feels compassion for those who suffer, no matter what their faith is.

    When the Bible says, “Weep with those who weep” (Romans 12:15), it does not add, “unless God caused the weeping.” Job’s comforters would have done better to weep with Job than talk so much. That does not change when we discover that Job’s suffering was ultimately from God. No, it is right to weep with those who suffer. Pain is pain, no matter who causes it. We are all sinners. Empathy flows not from the causes of pain, but from the company of pain. And we are all in it together.

    Lesson #5. Finally, Christ calls us to show mercy to those who suffer, even if they do not deserve it.

    That is the meaning of mercy — undeserved help. “Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you” (Luke 6:27). This is how Christ treated us (Romans 5:10), dying for us when we were his enemies. By that power, and with that example, we do the same.

    Also, John Piper's sermon "Is God Less Glorious Because He Ordained that Evil Be" is an excellent rebuttal to Sliverhair and his humanism.
     
  17. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    10,911
    Likes Received:
    1,458
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Sliverhair, always making man the cause of salvation and God the effected party. Never, ever, acknowledging that God is the cause of salvation and man is the effected party.

    Consequently, Sliverhair gives glory to man and not to God, who alone is to be praised since man will not believe if God does not cause man's belief.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  18. unprofitable

    unprofitable Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2017
    Messages:
    397
    Likes Received:
    61
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Still don't see where you responded to post 63, 67. Please read post 69. I have already told you satan lost his free will when he rebelled against God in declaring he would be above the most high. Adam lost his free will when he voluntarily took of the fruit.
    Your point is twisted when you say since God has determined all things then man cannot freely sin. Look at the world today and tell me what you see. Are you blind? Sinning is all that man is doing.

    Those dead in sins cannot respond and they will be held responsible because in their self righteous works they think they are the author of their own salvation. Do you understand what Christ meant when he told the Jews in John 8:44, Ye are of your father the devil, and his lusts/works YE WILL DO. What do you think Jeremiah meant when he says in 13:23, "Can an Ethiopian change his skin, or a leopard his spots? Then (If that time ever comes) may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil."

    It is not funny that God makes them responsible. He and the sons of God will always do judgment and justice. (Gen 18:19)
     
  19. unprofitable

    unprofitable Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2017
    Messages:
    397
    Likes Received:
    61
    Faith:
    Baptist
    There is no question about the order in Romans 10. Not sure why you are bringing it up.
    Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord (in spirit and truth John 4:24) shall be saved.

    The sons of Sceva called upon the name of the Lord and demons leaped on them. (Acts 19:13)

    Israel called upon the name of the Lord but he would not hear. Jer 7:16, 11:14 and 14:11.

    The remnant in Christ will always hear because he has given them ears (grace)
    John 10:27 says, "My sheep hear my voice and I know them, and they follow me." Contrast this to John 8:43 which says, "Why do ye not understand my speech, even because ye cannot hear my voice." (not given grace) Matt 13:10 says, "and the disciples came and said unto them, why speakest thou to them in parables?" vs 11 And he answered unto them, Because it is given unto you to know (grace give) the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven but to them it is not given. Grace was not given unto them, therefore there clearly is no universal giving of grace to all mankind. The remnant of Christ are the ones given grace to be able to call upon the name of the lord in spirit and in truth.
     
  20. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    6,586
    Likes Received:
    511
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You continue to say Adam lost his free will, I asked you to show me the scripture that shows that but as per usual you do not backup your comments with scripture. You want me to just accept what some man has told you the bible says. Show me in Genesis 3:17-19 where God said Adam you have lost your free will. Actually you can see from Genesis 3:22 that Adam still has a free will as he still had the ability to choose to eat of the tree of life.

    Why do you twist what I say? The fact that man can and does sin proves that your determinism is false. You theology holds to the idea that God has to determine all things or He is not sovereign. Well if He Has to determine all things that must mean all things which would include sin so it is your errant theology that has made God the author of all sin and evil.

    Are you so committed to your calvinist theology that you can not or rather will not see the result of it. Under your calvinism man only does what God has determined for them to do so when you quote the scripture that you do you are actually proving that your theology is in error. As I do not hold to your deterministic view I have no problem with the text of the bible.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...