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Featured Does God Control Sin?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by SavedByGrace, Feb 8, 2024.

  1. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Do you know that the Textus Receptus is the work of a humanist?

    The actual term was not used some 20 years after the 1611 KJV?
     
  2. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Who are you to replies against God ? God has a right to make a person a vessel of wrath and fit him for destruction. God can require obedience from a person, yet decree that person to disobey and then punish him for disobedience.
     
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  3. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Then you are saying that God will deny Himself. If God can be unjust at any time that He wants then how can you trust Him to be just in anything.

    You are saying that God will decree injustice. But that is not the God of the bible.

    Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, His work is perfect; all His ways are just. A God of faithfulness without injustice, righteous and upright is He.

    Psa_11:7 “The Lord is righteous, he loves justice

    Isa 45:21 ""And there is no other God besides Me, A just God and a Savior; There is none besides Me.

    Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
     
  4. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Who are you to replies against God ? God has a right to make a person a vessel of wrath and fit him for destruction. God can require obedience from a person, yet decree that person to disobey and then punish him for disobedience.
     
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  5. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    @Brightfame52 to quote you "God can require obedience from a person, yet decree that person to disobey and then punish him for disobedience."

    So your saying that God is duplicitous and untrustworthy.
     
  6. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Who are you to replies against God ? God has a right to make a person a vessel of wrath and fit him for destruction. God can require obedience from a person, yet decree that person to disobey and then punish him for disobedience.
     
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  7. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    You sound like your on auto repeat. If that is the only answer you have then you really do not know what you are speaking about. Your logic is flawed to say the least.
     
  8. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    as I mentioned in the OP

    the Reformed theologian, Wayne Grudem:

    "In Spite of All of the Foregoing Statements, We Have to Come to the Point Where We Confess That We Do Not Understand How It Is That God Can Ordain That We Carry Out Evil Deeds and Yet Hold Us Accountable for Them and Not be Blamed Himself: We can affirm that all of these things are true, because Scripture teaches them. But Scripture does not tell us exactly how God brings this situation about or how it can be that God holds us accountable for what he ordains to come to pass. Here Scripture is silent, and we have to agree with Berkhof that ultimately “the problem of God’s relation to sin remains a mystery" (Systematic Theology, p.331. emphasis mine)

    This is TOTAL UNBIBLICAL RUBBISH!!!
     
  9. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Yep again since you haven't repented:

    Who are you to replies against God ? God has a right to make a person a vessel of wrath and fit him for destruction. God can require obedience from a person, yet decree that person to disobey and then punish him for disobedience
     
  10. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    So we know your FEELINGS. Still waiting for some substance.

    Grudem goes on to explain...

    Scripture nowhere says that we are “free” in the sense of being outside of God’s control or of being able to make decisions that are not caused by anything. (This is the sense in which many people seem to assume we must be free; see discussion below.) Nor does it say we are “free” in the sense of being able to do right on our own apart from God’s power. But we are nonetheless free in the greatest sense that any creature of God could be free—we make willing choices, choices that have real effects. We are aware of no restraints on our will from God when we make decisions. We must insist that we have the power of willing choice; otherwise we will fall into the error of fatalism or determinism and thus conclude that our choices do not matter, or that we cannot really make willing choices. On the other hand, the kind of freedom that is demanded by those who deny God’s providential control of all things, a freedom to be outside of God’s sustaining and controlling activity, would be impossible if Jesus Christ is indeed “continually carrying along things by his word of power” (Heb. 1:3, author’s translation). If this is true, then to be outside of that providential control would simply be not to exist! An absolute “freedom,” totally free of God’s control, is simply not possible in a world providentially sustained and directed by God himself.

    Wayne A. Grudem, Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine (Leicester, England; Grand Rapids, MI: Inter-Varsity Press; Zondervan Pub. House, 2004), 331.​

    Rob
     
  11. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Are you saying that Grudem did not say this?

    In Spite of All of the Foregoing Statements, We Have to Come to the Point Where We Confess That We Do Not Understand How It Is That God Can Ordain That We Carry Out Evil Deeds and Yet Hold Us Accountable for Them and Not be Blamed Himself: We can affirm that all of these things are true, because Scripture teaches them. But Scripture does not tell us exactly how God brings this situation about or how it can be that God holds us accountable for what he ordains to come to pass. Here Scripture is silent, and we have to agree with Berkhof that ultimately “the problem of God’s relation to sin remains a mystery"
     
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  12. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    Well it's obvious to me that you don't understand what Grudem is saying.
    And you don't want to clearly articulate what you believe.

    That's a common problem in this forum.

    Rob
     
  13. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    The problem is that you are trying to spin what Grudem has said which I have quoted

    He makes God the AUTHOR of sin
     
  14. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    Have you read Burkhof's Systematic Theology, to which Grudem referred?

    Louis Berkhof, Systematic Theology (begin reading: The Decrees of God (p. 108)
    TOPIC: "IT MAKES GOD THE AUTHOR OF SIN" (page 116)


    7. WITH REFERENCE TO SIN IT IS PERMISSIVE. It is customary to speak of the decree of God respecting moral evil as permissive. By His decree God rendered the sinful actions of man infallibly certain without deciding to effectuate them by acting immediately upon and in the finite will. This means that God does not positively work in man “both to will and to do,” when man goes contrary to His revealed will. It should be carefully noted, however, that this permissive decree does not imply a passive permission of something which is not under the control of the divine will. It is a decree which renders the future sinful act absolutely certain, but in which God determines (a) not to hinder the sinful self-determination of the finite will; and (b) to regulate and control the result of this sinful self-determination. Ps. 78:29; 106:15; Acts 14:16; 17:30.
    L. Berkhof, Systematic Theology (Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans publishing co., 1938), 105.

    3. IT MAKES GOD THE AUTHOR OF SIN. This, if true, would naturally be an insuperable objection, for God cannot be the author of sin. This follows equally from Scripture, Ps. 92:15; Eccl. 7:29; Jas. 1:13; 1 John 1:5, from the law of God which prohibits all sin, and from the holiness of God. But the charge is not true; the decree merely makes God the author of free moral beings, who are themselves the authors of sin. God decrees to sustain their free agency, to regulate the circumstances of their life, and to permit that free agency to exert itself in a multitude of acts, of which some are sinful. For good and holy reasons He renders these sinful acts certain, but He does not decree to work evil desires or choices efficiently in man. The decree respecting sin is not an efficient but a permissive decree, or a decree to permit, in distinction from a decree to produce, sin by divine efficiency. No difficulty attaches to such a decree which does not also attach to a mere passive permission of what He could very well prevent, such as the Arminians, who generally raise this objection, assume. The problem of God’s relation to sin remains a mystery for us, which we are not able to solve.
    L. Berkhof, Systematic Theology (Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans publishing co., 1938), 107–108.​

    (Note: The website page numbers differ from my Logos edition; underlining mine)

    Rob
     
  15. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    DOUBLE-TALK HERESY!

    I can not understand how can anyone read this UNBIBLICAL NONSENSE!
     
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  16. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Let me try to make a note of each of these
    with respect to them being Degrees of God,
    by which He makes a Positive Determination or a Negative.

    By a "Negative Determination", or Decree, God is making a decision,
    however, that decision is not one of Positive Action,
    but of God making a decision to Not Act, regarding certain behaviours.


    A Negative Determination.

    A Negative Determination.

    A Negative Determination.

    A Negative Determination.

    A Negative Determination.

    Amen.

    A Positive Determination.

    A Negative Determination.

    A Negative Determination.

    A Negative Determination.

    A Negative Determination.
     
  17. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    look at #111
     
  18. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    I gave #111 an "Agree" vote.

    Then, I have this decent and ever-popular secondary source c&p to share.

    First, here is a little something to mess with your head, right off;

    MAN AS MUCH A FREE AGENT AS GOD.

    "What more than this can be affirmed of God?

    "What less can be affirmed of man?

    "God is self-determined. So is man, and at all times.

    "God always acts according to His choice; He does as He pleases.
    So also does man.

    "God cannot transcend Himself and act contrary to His character.
    Neither can man.

    "God is ever determined to good.
    Natural man is ever determined to that which is spiritually evil.

    "A regenerated man is determined, in the main, to that which is good.
    When he commits evil, he is, for the moment determined to evil.

    "The will of God is never compelled or restrained by anything outside His own nature. The same is true of man.

    "God never acts capriciously or arbitrarily, that is, without sufficient cause.
    Neither does man.

    "God always acts according to His preference, considering things as a whole; but not always according to His preference in things, considering them separately and apart from His perfect plan. For instance, God immanently prefers holiness at all times, but, in consideration of His plan as a whole, He purposed to permit sin; because it, in some way, is necessary to the working out of His plan.

    "This is analogous to the fact that man has conflicting preferences, but he always follows his strongest preference; and in doing so, his will is wholly and absolutely free."
    ...

    FREE AGENCY AND THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD.

    "Without the least reserve or hesitancy we subscribe to
    the Philadelphia Confession of Faith in its declaration that;


    "God hath decreed in himself from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably all things whatsoever comes to pass."


    "This includes evil as well and as fully as good, though in a different sense;
    and is supported by both reason and revelation.
    See chapter on "The Will of God."
    Also see Dan. 4:35; Isa. 46:10; Rom. 9:19; Eph. 1:11.


    "When men say that the absolute sovereignty of God cannot be reconciled with the free agency of man by finite minds, they betoken a misunderstanding either of free agency, or the workings of God's sovereignty, or both. Free agency is in perfect, full, and manifest harmony with the absolute sovereignty of God.

    "The bond of union between the two lies in the fact that the will is subject to the character of its possessor. God has determined the character of each man, through either His positive or permissive decrees-positive in the case of all good, and permissive in the case of all evil.

    (Note: the following word "controls" used here would be
    *"God ultimately controls, by restricting and allowing",
    per the O.P., "Does God Control Sin?"


    and not in any sense, "God causes when He controls").


    "And God, having determined all circumstances, *controls the motives that influence the will. Thus God *controls the actions of men, and yet men act at all times as freely as God Himself does. If there were no God, man could not act more freely than he does.


    "We see this harmony between the sovereignty of God and the free agency of man strikingly exemplified in the crucifixion of Christ. God determined that Christ should be crucified (Acts 2:23; 4:27,28).

    "And He determined that certain ones should do it, but He did this permissively.

    "All that took part in the crucifixion were only acting out their own natures, and were never freer in any act, nor was God ever freer in any act.

    "Through wicked motives they chose to kill the Lord of glory. They killed Him because they hated Him. They killed Him because He rebuked them for their sin. They killed Him because He took away the glory that had been theirs.

    "God did not cause them to do it, but He decreed to permit them to follow their own inclinations and desires in doing it."
    ...

    WHY MAN IS RESPONSIBLE.

    God's Will equals His Purpose and His Purpose equals His Decree."

    "Man is responsible for his actions,
    notwithstanding the fact that God has decreed all that comes to pass,
    because,


    God's Decree Concerning Sin is Not Causative but Permissive,
    Directive, Preventive, and Determinative.


    "God decreed that sin should come in the world, for reasons that are fully known only to Him, but He decreed that it should come by man's own free choice.

    "God does not compel man to sin, but He allows it. Man, and not God, is the efficient cause of sin; and for that reason man is responsible.


    "Before passing it needs to be remarked that no objections can be brought against the statement that God decreed that sin should come into the world that cannot be brought against God's actual permission of sin, unless the objector takes the position that God was powerless to prevent the entrance of sin.

    "This would be a denial of God's omnipotence and sovereignty, and would render the objector unworthy of consideration here.

    "God's omnipotence and sovereignty teaches us that whatever God permits He permits because He wills to do so.

    "And since God is immutable, His will has ever been the same.

    "What He wills at any time He has willed from all eternity.

    "Therefore,

    God's Will equals His Purpose and His Purpose equals His Decree."
     
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