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Featured Genuine Salvation is Forever

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by MrW, Mar 4, 2024.

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  1. MrW

    MrW Well-Known Member

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    Q. If a man turns away from his faith will God force him to be in heaven even though he does not believe in God anymore?

    A. If he CAN turn away, he will, because he has never been born again, never been saved, and never knew Christ and He never knew them who do so. He is a hog that was washed (outwardly) but still has a hog’s heart, a hog’s nature, and will revert to his wallowing in the mud of sin. They remain hogs and never were transformed into sheep.

    Christ’s sheep are known of Him, known by name, and while Christ NEVER knew the lost, yet He knows all His sheep and His sheep shall NEVER perish.

    The new birth is REAL, and one who has been supernaturally transformed into that new creation, made a partaker of the divine nature, fitted for Heaven, CANNOT revert back to being the slug he once was, fit only for hell, any more than a butterfly can revert to being a crawling caterpillar worm again. His will is now found in God’s will, for He lives to do the will of Him Who gave him the new birth of His own will, a new heart after God’s heart, and a new life in Christ Jesus, walking no longer by the flesh but by the Holy Spirit of God.
     
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  2. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    No God will not force anyone to be with Him, even those that have trusted in Him if they choose to turn away He will let them go. That is called free will.

    As Christians we look to God and say Thy will be done. As a loving God He looks at His creation and says Thy will be done.
    God exhibits His love when He allows anyone to come to Him but does not force anyone to stay with Him.

    @MrW I understand that you want to believe that no one who has know God and been know by Him would latter turn away but the reality is that it does happen. To say that these people never really believed is to pass judgement on something that only they and God know.

    How do you account for the warning we find in Hebrews?
    The warning is addressed to the whole assembly (See to it, brothers, . . . encourage one another daily). These phrases recognize individual responsibility to act (that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart, . . . none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness) and describe accurately the terrible result of sin's hardening (turns away from the living God). The IVP New Testament Commentary Series

    The heart of unbelief will manifest its evil in apostasy. The Greek word apistia stands in direct contrast to “faithful” (pistos), Heb_3:2, and combines the ideas of “unbelief” and “faithlessness.” Ellicott's Commentary
     
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  3. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    A person cannot know one has eternal life if it can be had and lost. 1 John 5:13, . . . that ye may know that ye have eternal life, . . . would have to be a lie.
     
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  4. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    @37818 what does the text say?
    1Jn 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. NKJV

    The words "continue to" have been added by the editors of the NKJV because the word in question "believe" is in the present tense. As you know this means it is a simple statement of fact of something happening in occurring in actual time. So we could write this verse as such:
    These things I have written to you who are believing {G4100 (G5723)} now in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, as long as you continue to believe {G4100 (G5725)} in the name of the Son of God.

    There is the real possibility of a Christian falling away from Christ Jesus, in other words becoming apostate.

    Heb 3:12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
    Heb 3:13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

    The Greek words translated "to apostatize" (lit. to stand away, aphistemi) and "apostasy" (defection, apostasia) do not by themselves indicate whether believers or unbelievers are in view. The reader must determine this from the context. Here believers seem to be in view...since the writer called them "brethren." Some people refer to Christian apostates as backsliders. However the apostates in view here were very serious backsliders. In other contexts, unsaved apostates are in view (e.g., Luk_13:27; cf. 2Th_2:11). Expository Notes of Dr. Constable
     
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  5. MrW

    MrW Well-Known Member

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    Hebrews was written to Hebrews (Jews), halting between two opinions. They were hearing it taught that the Lord Jesus was the promised Messiah, but they were still trusting the Mosaic sacrificial system, and were holding back from putting faith in the Lord Jesus. That’s quite clear in the context of the book.
     
  6. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    "In Matthew 13:1-24, we have both the parable of the sower and Christ's inspired exposition of the same. This parable taught the disciples what to expect in their preaching ministries and has often given light to preachers since that time.

    "Perhaps the most important lesson of the parable is that many would receive God's Word and profess Christ whose lives later would prove them to be Christless.

    "While man by nature hates God, yet some because of the Spirit's influence receive His Word with joy (v. 20), but the change is not lasting.

    "True faith is victorious, but temporary "faith" (of the flesh only)
    can be overcome by trials (v. 21), temptations (v. 22),
    and heresies (II Timothy 2: 1.8).

    "The parable of the sower is everywhere illustrated
    in gospel-preaching churches today.

    "In II Peter 2:20-22, we have another case of those
    who are influenced by the gospel,
    yet later reveal their unregenerate state.


    "The author has often found it helpful to compare this Scripture
    with II Peter, 1:3-4 to bring out the difference
    between common and saving grace.

    1. Let us first notice The Characteristics of those in II Peter 2:20-22
    who experienced only a temporary change
    .

    a. They escaped for a while certain of the more gross sins. (v. 20).

    b. They received a degree of enlightenment (v. 20).

    This reminds us of Balaam
    who received such a view of Divine Things
    as to cause him to say,

    "Let me die the death of the righteous" (Numbers 23: 10)
    yet he died without Christ.

    c. They fell away (verses 20-22).

    Peter compares them to hogs (SO DOES MrW!!!)
    and dogs who have been cleaned up for awhile,
    but eventually their true natures are revealed
    as they return to their old habits.

    2. Let us note
    The Characteristics of the Regenerate man in II Peter 1:3-4.

    a. They not only escaped the more gross sins,
    but had their lusts subdued.

    b. They were "called" to Glory and Virtue.

    c. They were "Partakers of the Divine Nature."

    d. They were given "all things that pertain to life and Godliness,"
    rather than "just certain influences".

    e. There is no mention of their falling away.

    C. The last Scripture we will notice in Hebrews 6:4-6.

    Some of the Jews who professed Christ were in danger of falling away.

    The author of the Epistle to the Hebrews
    warns them that those who deny Christ
    after having experienced such gracious influences of God's Spirit
    are in a hopeless condition.

    "We think of men like Balaam, Judas, Saul, Demas,
    or the Israelites who died in the wilderness.

    "They experienced "the breath of heaven", yet died lost and undone.

    See:

    Chapter 8 - The Work of the Holy Spirit in Common Grace
    – Part I, pg 20.

    Chapter 9 - The Work of the Holy Spirit in Common Grace
    – Part II, pg 22.

     
  7. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    I like what you're saying here, a lot
    (and it makes me want to preach!)


    The Person and Work of the Holy Spirit By Ron Crisp

    Chapter 10 - The Preparatory Work
    of the Holy Spirit in Salvation, pg 25.


    I. AWAKENING.

    II. ILLUMINATION.

    III. CONVICTION.
    pg 26.

    "While "awakening" deals primarily with danger, yet "conviction"
    is the work of God whereby the cause of our danger is revealed.

    "In conviction a man is convinced and reproved
    concerning his sinful condition.

    "This alone can give the sinner a desire to know Christ.

    "A form of words, though ever so sound, Can never save a soul;
    The Holy Ghost must give the wound, And make the wounded whole."


    A. The areas of conviction - In John 16:8-11,
    we find three areas wherein men are convicted.

    1. Of sin - God convicts men of great sins they have committed
    (Acts 2:36-37), of original sin, of failure in duties,
    and of the sin of unbelief.

    2. Of righteousness - Men are convicted of the righteousness of Christ,
    and of their need of His righteousness (Matthew 5:6).

    3. Of judgment to come - Judgment often has reference to rule.
    Men are convinced that just as Satan will be vanquished,
    so Christ is the coming king, and that resistance is folly.

    "The powers of evil have no chance for victory,
    but all will ultimately stand before God.

    "B. The need for conviction.

    "1. Without conviction men would not be ready
    to admit their total defilement,
    nor to come to Christ as helpless beggars.


    "Christ is all" (Colossians 3:11) in salvation,
    and God would have the Redeemed to understand this.

    "Conviction therefore prepares the soul for faith in Christ.

    2. Conviction is preparatory to repentance.

    "Godly sorrow (II Corinthians 7:10) precedes repentance
    which is a permanent change of heart and mind about sin.

    C. The means of conviction.

    "While conviction is a work of God's Spirit,
    yet He is pleased to use certain truths in this work.

    "Just as He often uses the truth of God’s wrath to awaken sinners
    so in conviction He uses:

    1. The law (Romans 3:19-20; 7:7-13).
    Men commonly judge themselves by their neighbors' actions,
    but in conviction they see that it is God’s glory
    they fall short of (Romans 3:23).

    2. The goodness of God (Romans 2:4).
    Many have testified that it was a view of God's goodness
    that convinced them of their sin.

    D. The earmarks of true conviction.

    1. Real conviction causes a man to accept his guilt
    (Psalms 51:4, Luke 18:9-14).

    2. Real conviction destroys self-righteousness
    (Luke 18:9-14, Isaiah 64:6).

    3. Real conviction sees sin as being against God
    (Psalms 51:4, Luke 15:18.)

    4. Real conviction leads one to Christ, rather than to worldly despair
    (II Corinthians 7: 10).

    "Conviction may not be pleasant work, but it is a necessary one.

    "To see ourselves as we are is a prerequisite to seeing Christ.

    "In the first four beatitudes (Matthew 5:3-6)
    our Lord explains that only those
    who have experienced such conviction are truly blessed.

    IV. A DESIRE FOR THE MEANS OF GRACE.

    "Before a soul is saved the Holy Spirit
    will often produce within him or her a desire to hear God's Word."


    Chapter 11 - The Work of the Holy Spirit in Regeneration, Pg 29.

    I. THE NECESSITY OF THE NEW BIRTH.

    II. THE NATURE OF THE NEW BIRTH.

    1. "Regeneration" or "Born Again" --

    Are not these words merely human comparisons
    to what takes place in the miracle of grace upon the soul of man?

    In physical generation new life is imparted
    and family likeness produced.

    Are not these truths that which make birth
    a wonderful picture of the work of God's grace in man?

    2. A resurrection -- Ephesians 2: 1, 5.

    3. A renewal -- Colossians 3: 10.

    4. A translation -- Colossians 1:13.

    5. A new heart -- Ezekiel 36:26.

    6. The writing of the Law in One's Heart -- Hebrews 8:10.

    7. A new creature -- II Corinthians 5: 17.

    8. The giving of light -- II Corinthians 4:6.

    9. A good tree -- Matthew 7: 17.

    10. A creation -- Ephesians 2:10.

    C. Regeneration experienced.

    III. THE AGENT IN REGENERATION, pg 30.

    IV. THE FRUIT OF REGENERATION, pg 31.

    A. Faith
    -- I John 5:4-5, Hebrews 12:2, I Peter 1:3, Acts. 18:27
    (The reader must not understand us to say
    that regeneration is prior to faith in the realm of time.

    Regeneration precedes faith only as to cause.

    Faith is instantly produced by the regenerating power of God
    and is thus simultaneous to regeneration as concerns time.

    This may be illustrated in the following way.

    A bullet fired through a wall instantly produces a hole.

    In the realm of time the action of the bullet striking the wall
    cannot be separated from the effect produced
    yet the bullet is the cause of the hole.

    Regenerating grace instantly produces faith
    yet precedes it as the cause.)

    B. Repentance -- II Timothy 2:25.

    C. Love to God -- John 4:19 .

    D. Love to other saints -- I John 4:7, 3:14.

    E. Perseverance -- Philippians 1:6, I John 5:4-5.
     
  8. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    1 John 5:10, . . . he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. . . . You see, not to, believe in order to know one has eternal life is in effect to call God a liar. See Titus 1:2 and John 10:28, . . . I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, . . .

    Also see Romans 8:16 and John 14:16-17, . . . Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
    Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, . . .
     
  9. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    @37818 Those that do not believe are calling God a liar and those that continue to believe will indeed have eternal life. But that is the condition, faith. If one does not continue to believe you seem to think God will force them to go to heaven anyway. Does that sound like a loving father to you?
     
  10. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    You overlooking that fact that some of them came to a saving faith in Christ Jesus and among those some were drifting back to the law.
    Heb 2:17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
    We see that Jesus Christ was the atoning sacrifice for His people, the Jews.

    Heb 3:1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus,
    To call them "holy brethren" would indicate that they had trusted in Christ for their salvation.

    Heb 3:12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
    Logically you can not depart from a place you are not at. To depart from faith in the living God you must have had such faith.

    Why would it be necessary to warn people against falling away if it were not possible to fall away? The Holy Spirit thought it was important enough to include the warning for a reason.
     
  11. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Jesus explained. See Luke 8:13, . . . on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. . . . In other words did not believe into salvation.

    See Colossians 2:7
     
    #11 37818, Mar 5, 2024
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2024
  12. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    I agree some will hear and mentally accept Christ and that explains some but not all. So what you are saying is that once man has trusted in Christ he no longer has a free will. That is what OSAS really means.

    If man does not have the free will to turn away then how do you know they had the free will to actually trust in the first place?

    OSAS is just the calvinist Irresistible Grace viewed from the other side of salvation. Under calvinism the elect have no choice but to be saved and under OSAS the elect have no choice but to stay saved.

    So under either man is just a puppet on a string controlled by God to dance to whatever tune He decides. Both views are man-made and are not biblical.
     
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  13. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    An individual's will is is limited, and we call our limited will free.

    Romans 6:16, . . . Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? . . .

    Romans 6:23, For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Revelation 20:15, And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
     
  14. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Hebrews 9:27-28,
    And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

    Revelation 20:6, Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    Revelation 20:11-15.
     
  15. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    How is their will limited? Can they make real choices re their salvation or have all those choice been made for them?

    Answer this, does a person loose their free will when they trust in Christ Jesus?

    The verses you posted do not deal with the persons free will to either accept or reject Christ or even if they will continue to believe in Christ subsequent to salvation.
     
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  16. MrW

    MrW Well-Known Member

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    I disagree. Those who went back to the old sacrificial system NEVER were known of Christ. He said so Himself. That, my friend, is reality.

    Christ never knew them. Matt. 7:21-23.

    Christ’s sheep never perish. John 10:28.

    Irrefutable Bible facts, spoken by the Lord Jesus Christ and He cannot lie. Titus 2:4.
    See also that only God performs the new birth, not man, and He makes no mistakes.
    John 1:11-13.

    That being God’s pure truth, it means you have misunderstood some other verses.

    You chide others who reject crystal clear Bible truth, and now you are doing what you admonish them for doing.
     
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  17. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    There limited choices change per Romans 6:16, Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

    Romans 6;23, For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    between what is earned or the gift.
     
  18. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
    Mat 7:22 "Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
    Mat 7:23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

    Notice what the verses say. “Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven,..." While some will profess they follow Christ not all do.
    "...but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.” Mat 7:21 But even of those that do they must do the will of God, in other words believe.

    And what it does not say. This verse says nothing about those that have trusted in Christ and later turn away from Him.

    Joh 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
    Joh 10:28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

    So from these verses we know that His are known by Him and no one can snatch them out of Him hand. I do not disagree with this. But again it says nothing about those that choose of their own free will to turn away.

    Christ knows His sheep and we see that the sheep are those that have trusted in Him.

    Joh 5:24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me...has passed from death into life.

    While all can hear, it is only those that accept the message and receive the Savior that will pass from death into life. But there is nothing that says a person can not subsequently turn away.

    In this verse, Joh 5:24, “believes” G4100 (G5723) (a present tense participle) is in linear action, as it usually is in John’s gospel. The faith that saves is an ongoing faith, a continuing belief. We could appropriately render the verse thus: “The one who continues to believe has eternal life and shall not come into condemnation.” Certainly, the person who maintains faith will share the destiny promised believers.

    We see the same thing applies to Joh_3:36 about unbelief. “he who does not believe” (another present tense participle) is also linear in action. The one who persists in unbelief will share the destiny promised those who do not believe

    Joh_5:24 he who hears My word and believes shall not come into judgment

    Joh_3:36 he who does not believe shall not see life the wrath of God abides on him.

    No one would say that Joh_3:36 means one who is presently an unbeliever is forever doomed.

    As we see Joh_5:24 means that as long as the person remains a believer they will share the destiny promised to believers.
    If they turn away then they will suffer the wrath of God as an unbeliever.
     
  19. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    If we took Rom 6:16 as you seem to understand it then no one could be saved as all are under sin prior to trusting in Christ. So since we have to obey the one we are under, no free will, then we would all reject Christ.

    But then you use Rom 6:23 as if we can make choices, or are you saying that God forces people to believe in Him? If you say man has a free will so as to trust in Christ then the question is still the same as before. What happens to our free will subsequent to salvation?

    If man has a free will to trust in Christ He also has the free will to latter turn away from Christ.
     
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  20. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    To obey righteousness is by receiving the gift. Which cannot be earned. See Romans 4:4-5.

    Either what one deserves or the gift. No amount of works can equal the earned death.

    Does not change the problem.

    It becomes no different than never being saved.

    Matthew 7:23, never being saved. Trusting in their works, Matthew 7:22. Contrary to God's will, verse 21.
     
    #20 37818, Mar 6, 2024
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2024
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