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How are we made righteous?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Jan 27, 2018.

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  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    We are made righteous when God and God alone transfers us into Christ, where we undergo the "circumcision of Christ," the "washing of regeneration."
     
  2. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    You keep using "credit our faith" as if it was some human generated faith in which God responds.

    Human faith is as fallen as all aspects of the human condition from Eden. There is no human attribute that gains salvation of it's own merit.

    The Faith of the Scripture is that which is brought by the presentation of the Scriptures and the work of the Holy Spirit. Such faith is GIVEN that one may express belief (Word is IN the heart and mouth as Romans 10:8 states).

    Romans 10:8 is present before Romans 10:9-10. The Romans 10:9-10 are IN RESPONSE to what has already taken place in Romans 10:8. Therefore the human cries of belief the confessions of unrighteousness in repentance and reliance upon that redemption of God's providing is NOT a catalyst to righteousness, but a result of that work already accomplished in the heart and pouring out the mouth.

    Therefore, it is along with that word and work that God gift of belief, righteousness, no condemnation,... all one package indivisible.

    Do not miss that belief and faith are the same word in the Greek, and that such is never presented as self generated but is a gift from God by the work of the Word and Holy Spirit (Romans 10:17). It is "our faith, my faith, your faith, ..." only from the standpoint that it is that faith given by God to that specific individual according to God's purpose and plan and therefore is expressed in the Scriptures as a personal pronoun.

    Too often folks neglect that author of faith, the giver of faith, in the presentation of the gospel and subject the faith as if it were already present and working as an innate quality in the fallen creature. That just doesn't conform to the presentation of Scriptures.

    There is a fallen faith, a worldly hope, that is more often expressed in some vow or verbal contract. But such promise cannot rise to that of righteousness, for it carries no sustaining ability other then human strength. Such is why some endorse a possibility of a loss of salvation unless certain evidences remain.

    Yet does not the Scriptures state, "they went out from us because they were not of us," as an example of some who placed human faith as sufficient?

    Too often, the faith that can move mountains is considered human faith in an expression such as , "Well, if we had enough faith we could..." Again, it is God that gives the measure of faith (Romans 12:3) and that the believers are to add to that faith such as one might adorn a precious stone to highlight each facet (2 Peter 1:5-10).
     
  3. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    Gentlemen, I would like to weigh in here.

    Gal 3:6
    Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.
    7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.
    8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.”
    9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.​

    The Bible records Abraham as a "believer in the gospel of Jesus Christ." (in fact, the very first believer in Christ) It wasn't merely that Abraham believed God when God said "the sky is blue" but the Bible indicates God preached THE GOSPEL to Abraham, and when Abraham believed THE GOSPEL of Jesus Christ this is why his faith made him righteous. Additionally, it is an important distinction to realize that Abraham is, and will always be, the ONLY person in history to be made righteous directly for his faith in the gospel (side note: this is why both Calvinism and Arminianism are wrong - they both incorrectly assume salvation is a direct result of faith). The rest of us (including the post-death Jesus Christ - Heb 13:20) were made righteous indirectly by faith qualifying them to INHERIT salvation (righteousness) as adopted spiritual descendants of Abraham. Haven't you ever wondered how one man's death could save millions? Wouldn't Jesus have to die once for each person made righteous if salvation were direct?

    Jesus was the only human being to ever live a fully righteous and sinless life. Jesus died and exchanged (redeemed) his righteousness SPECIFICALLY with Abraham and made Abraham righteous (and Jesus took on Abraham's sin). Then God makes an "eternal covenant" where he promises that all of Abraham's spiritual descendants - those with the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ that Abrhaam had - would inherit that righteousness. The rest of us INHERIT that righteousness as a birthright by being qualified as descendants of Abraham (so salvation is an indirect result of faith). Genesis 17:7 God makes the covenant with Abraham and calls him the "Father of Many nations" 3 times in Genesis 17 (indicating that the covenant would be inherited by the adopted children).

    Gal 3:16
    Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

    Gen 15:5
    And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
    6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

    Gen 17:7
    And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.​

    So then we see that those with the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ that Abraham had are the adopted descendants of Abraham and heirs of Christ's righteousness, which was given to Abraham. Thereby, the 1:1 exchange of Christ's righteousness (and Abraham's sin, BTW) can be inherited by the many.


    Gal 3:26
    For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

    Gal 3:29
    And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.​

    Jesus himself corroborated Paul's interpretation in John 8:

    Jhn 8:39
    They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus *said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham.​

    What did Abraham do? He believed the gospel of Jesus Christ. Jesus goes on to confirm he's speaking of being the spiritual descendant of Abraham and says they are not qualified as descendants of Abraham as God defines it, but rather qualified as descendants of Satan:

    Jhn 8:43
    Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
    44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.​

    Rom 10:17
    So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.​

    If Jesus says "you cannot hear my word" what he's saying is "you do not have faith" and then he immediately declares them disqualified as heirs of Abraham and instead qualified as children of Satan. Later in John chapter 8 Jesus confirms that Abraham did indeed have faith in Him.

    Jhn 8:56
    Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.​

    Jesus confirms the "descendant of Abraham inherits righteousness in other scriptures as well. Such as:

    Luke 19:9
    And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.”​

    Hebrews also says:
    Hebrews 2:16
    For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.

    Isaiah spoke of this also when he said:
    Isaiah 54:1
    “Shout for joy, O barren one, you who have borne no child; Break forth into joyful shouting and cry aloud, you who have not travailed; For the sons of the desolate one will be more numerous Than the sons of the married woman,” says the LORD.

    So with that in mind, take a second look at Ephesians 1:

    Eph 1:13
    In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
    14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.​

    It is of great importance to note that we do not receive our full inheritance of righteousness until the resurrection. This is why the Christian has the dual natures (the sin nature and the divine nature) warring for control of the mind as Paul says in Romans 7-8. But the Holy Spirit (the divine nature) is given as a placeholder or pledge of the fullness yet to come. This is why we still have knowledge of sin, as Hebrews says. Just as Adam sinned and his eyes were opened that he may know both good and evil, so we too have both natures.
     
  4. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    .
    It's my belief that this way of thinking (call it Calvinism or Reformed doctrine or whatever) stems from an incorrect understanding of how salvation works. Having the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ that Abraham had doesn't' regenerate a person, and salvation is not direct... it is indirect. Our faith qualifies us for HUMAN ADOPTION (which doesn't require spiritual regeneration) as children of Abraham and then those who are qualified as descendants of Abraham inherit the promise of righteousness.

    Additionally, the Bible plainly and explicitly says that salvation is a choice God sets before man, and that it is not a choice He makes in heaven:

    Deu 30:1
    So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you,
    6 Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.
    11 For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach.
    12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’
    13 Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’
    14 But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.
    15 See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;
    19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,
    20 by loving the LORD your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, that you may live in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”​

    This agrees with Paul and Romans where it says:

    Rom 2:14
    For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
    15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

    Rom 8:16
    The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
    17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.​

    Note how Deuteronomy 30 says I call heaven and earth to witness and how Romans 8:16 says God's Spirit (heaven) and our spirit (earth) testifiy against us. Well the Greek word in Romans 8 for testifies is symmartyreō. This literally means "to bear witness with, or bear joint witness."
     
  5. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

    In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

    Is the resurrected Jesus of Nazareth, the substance and seen evidence of the promise of God who cannot lie made before the world begin? Eternal life in flesh incorruptible?

    Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: Acts 2:22,23
    Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in Hades, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Acts 2:30-32
    Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. Rom 6:9
    And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
    Acts 13:34,35
    Because thou wilt not leave my soul in Hades, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Acts 2:27
    For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
    And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. 1 Cor 15 3-8

    And if Christ be not risen (from the dead ones) vain the faith of you all. 1 Cor 15:17

    I contend that is the only faith spoken of in the word of God. The learned obedience Heb 5:8,7 of the Son, unto death, even the death of the Cross Phil 2:8
    The Son was saved from death by the only one who could save him from death. God the Father. Gal 1:1

    Someone posted another thread relative faith, In or Of.

    I say. Have faith of God. Mark 11:22

    From before the foundation of the world God had, the belief, that his Son born of woman would learn through sufferings and become obedient unto death. Shed his blood wherein is the soul of the flesh. Lev 17:11

    To me. That is, the faith. which beings salvation through the shedding of the Holy Spirit.
     
  6. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Perhaps you will attend to Roman 10 in which as I showed belief is given not as a result of human contrivance but by the Word and Work of the Holy Spirit.
     
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  7. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    Lets examine Romans 10.

    Rom 10:5
    For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness.
    6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, ‘WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?’ (that is, to bring Christ down),
    7 or ‘WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).”
    8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,​

    Here we see in verse 5 that Paul says "the man who practices..." when referring to works of the Law, and it is in that context which Paul compares faith. He goes on in verse 8 to quote from Deuteronomy 30 where God says 3 times that salvation is a human choice.

    Deu 30:1
    So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you,
    15 See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;
    19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,​

    God reeeeeallly wanted us to understand that life and death, blessing and the curse are a human choice... something He set before us and gave us to determine, otherwise, He wouldn't have said it 3 times in one chapter. God goes on to explicitly state that God does NOT make this determination in heaven. This is the part of the chapter that Paul quotes in Romans 10:8:

    Deu 30:11
    For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach.
    12 It is not in heaven
    , that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’
    13 Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’
    14 But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.​

    We know the context of Deuteronomy 30 is salvation because it says in verse 6:

    6 Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.​

    This is the context which Paul is using to make his statements in Romans 10. He is literally saying "that the righteousness that comes by faith speaks as follows: this decision to believe is not made in heaven. It is a choice God has set before us." Consider that it does no damage to the sovereignty of God for Him to give us a single, distinct, binary choice. For example, if I say to my children "you can have pancakes or waffles for breakfast... but FYI, choose the pancakes because they're amazing!" I have given my children a choice, but I am still sovereign over breakfast (my kids don't get to choose steak and eggs, for example). Similarly, it doesn't damage God's sovereignty when He gives us a distinct binary choice - life or death... and BTW, choose life (Deu 30:19b).

    One way I came to believe and understand Deuteronomy 30 is by studying the word "choice" or "choose." There is very little choice God gives man. The scriptures are filled with choices, and predominantly they are God's choices. For example:

    Deu 12:5
    “But you shall seek the LORD at the place which the LORD your God will choose from all your tribes, to establish His name there for His dwelling, and there you shall come.
    Deu 31:11
    when all Israel comes to appear before the LORD your God at the place which He will choose, you shall read this law in front of all Israel in their hearing.​

    But salvation is not a choice God makes. In Deuteronomy 30, God makes clear that is a choice He sets before us.

    Jos 24:15
    “If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”​
     
  8. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    This seems like a contradiction. It says "the evidence of things NOT seen" but then you equate it with the physical evidence of something which has been seen (Jesus resurrected) as you indicated:

    "And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. 1 Cor 15 3-8"​


    Though I find your description a bit confusing, and certainly it is not how we are used to thinking of faith, in a way, I agree with part of this. The portion I agree with is that Jesus Himself needed to have faith to be saved.

    We see in Romans 3:24 the idea that we are justified as righteous through Christ’s redemption. To redeem means to purchase or exchange. But for that substitution to happen, that purchaser would need to have their own righteousness that they could exchange for the sin of the one being purchased. Christ was the only one who lived a perfect and sinless life. He was the only one ever qualified to give up His righteousness (His life) in exchange for our sin.

    2Corinthians 5:21
    He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

    Here we can see the Biblical notion that the redemption of Christ caused the sinner (Abraham for example – I’ll explain why shortly) to be made righteous, and caused the sinless Jesus Christ to become sin-filled. This verse demonstrates that great exchange. Perhaps it would be easier to say that our sin was imputed or credited to Christ, and Christ’s righteousness was imputed to Abraham (and subsequently to us). Many people have great difficulty with the notion that Christ, who was sinless and righteous, could actually become sin. But this is the nature of the exchange. At some literal point, God had to see Christ as sinful, and He has to see us as righteous. But remember, Christ volunteered for this exchange. Christ never sinned, yet he became sin so that we could become righteous.

    Psalms 16:10
    For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol; Nor will You allow Your Holy One to undergo decay.

    Philippians 2:5
    Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
    6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
    7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
    8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
    9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,


    Matthew 27:46
    About the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “ELI, ELI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?” that is, “MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?”

    Galatians 3:13
    Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE”—

    Deuteronomy 21:23
    his corpse shall not hang all night on the tree, but you shall surely bury him on the same day (for he who is hanged is accursed of God), so that you do not defile your land which the LORD your God gives you as an inheritance.

    Hebrews 9:15
    For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

    Isaiah 53:6
    All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him.

    Galatians 4:4
    But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,
    5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

    Christ emptied Himself of His fullness to become a man. He also became obedient to death – remember death comes after sin and is the just punishment (wage) for sin. Jesus allowed Himself to be crucified on a cross (on a tree). Remember He said He could call 12 legions of angels to come and protect Him (Matthew 26:53), but He allowed Himself to be taken and killed. Through crucifixion on a tree (a cross), He became a curse for us (remember also the sky turned dark at His death). The sin laid upon Him caused God to look away from Him and forsake Him. I am not saying that Jesus sinned, but rather that He became sin and Abraham became righteous in this great, redemptive exchange. Some might object – “But that would mean that Jesus, cursed and sin-filled, couldn’t lift Himself out of hell. He would be stuck there!” Yes. That is true. That was quite the leap of faith on Jesus’ part, wasn’t it? Do you recall when Moses lifted up the bronze serpent that all who looked upon it were healed?

    Numbers 21:8
    Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live.”

    That was a type and shadow for Christ. Christ became sin (represented by the serpent) on that cross – our sin. Those who look upon this sacrifice will be healed. Healing is what Christ came do. Jesus was fully God, but he was also fully man. As fully man, when God laid the sin of the world upon him on that cross, he contained in his flesh the fullness of our sin. As such, he no longer had any righteousness in and of himself.

    The Promises
    But Jesus had the benefit of a promise from God that God would lift Him out of hell… that God would not leave His soul in Sheol, and that He would again inherit righteousness back to Himself.

    Galatians 3:16
    Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ.

    19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

    Hebrews 1:4
    having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.

    Hebrews 13:20
    Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, even Jesus our Lord,

    This begs the question – why does God promise Jesus that He won’t leave His soul in hell, and why is salvation promised to Jesus Christ? Why does Paul say that Jesus is the one “to whom the promise had been made.” What promise? The promise was that of life as an everlasting inheritance for the spiritual descendants of Abraham! All Jesus has to do to inherit again His own righteousness is believe God’s promise to Himself. So then Jesus becomes the example for us – the first raised out of hell and death in the fulfillment of God’s promise that He would inherit that righteousness. We can now have full assurance that salvation through faith is possible because Jesus Christ has already been the first to be – as Hebrews 13:20 says – raised through the blood of the eternal covenant or as Hebrews 1:4 says He “inherited” a more excellent name

    Romans 6:5
    For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,

    1Corinthians 15:23
    But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,

    Colossians 1:18
    He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.

    Hebrews 6:12
    so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
    13 For when God made the promise to Abraham, since He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself,


    Hebrews 9:12
    and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.


    I think I can agree with you (for the most part), though I really have no idea what you meant by this statement.
     
  9. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    I agree in regards to Christ's righteousness, because it is distinct from the righteousness obtained by men from a temporal perspective, hence my statement...

    I think if anything, if you are trying to distinguish between the righteousness Old Testament Saints are said to have and the righteousness of Christ...I'm behind you, brother, all the way.

    I'd probably need you to clarify what you are saying, but taking it at face value it sounds as though you are imposing a quality of adoption to Old Testament Saints prior to the Cross, and viewing Christ's Sacrifice as "settling accounts." I disagree with that view (that the Old Testament Saints were "saved on credit," in advance of the Cross) because Scripture makes it clear this was not the case. Men were not made sons of God until Christ came (and I will start with just one verse on that subject):


    John 1:11-13
    King James Version (KJV)

    11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

    12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

    13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.



    If we maintain the context John presents in this chapter we see that in view is the coming of Christ and what was accomplished when He came.

    Another issue is the explicit statement of Scripture that the transgressions of men we "settled" when Christ died on the Cross, and that it was His offering of Himself that accomplished Eternal Redemption:


    Hebrews 9:12-15
    King James Version (KJV)

    12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

    13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

    14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

    15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.



    We also see, as Van mentioned, that only through the Blood (death) of Christ were men made perfect, or in other words, made complete in regards to remission of sins:



    Hebrews 10:1, 4
    King James Version (KJV)

    1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

    4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


    Hebrews 10:10, 14
    King James Version (KJV)

    10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

    14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.



    In view is the fulfillment of God's promise:


    Hebrews 8:8-12
    King James Version (KJV)

    8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

    9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

    10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

    11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

    12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.



    And he (the Writer) will go on to make the same point:


    Hebrews 10:15-18
    King James Version (KJV)

    15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

    16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

    17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

    18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.



    The Old Testament Saint awaited that completion, and it was bestowed when Christ died on the Cross, not before. Hence Van's statement that they were not made perfect.


    So were you in HVAC?


    God bless.
     
  10. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    I see that you are making that common mistake in assuming that because Israel was presented a choice, then they indicate that the matter of belief is also a choice.

    That is not so.

    Rather, the writer of Romans 10 is comparing and contrasting the righteousness of the law which cannot save - even if one were to keep the law - and that which is by Christ.

    The Israeli failed at keeping the law, just as all fail in that established standard. There was no "choice" in which the Israeli would have success. The Law was established and all have failed. Therefore, this thinking of some "choice" in the matter is just not what Paul is establishing.

    Rather, Paul is showing that BEFORE confession, BEFORE repentance, BEFORE belief, that the WORD is ALREADY in the heart and in the mouth. A change has ALREADY taken place and therefore that person confesses belief and Godly repentance.

    The desire to show some choice as granted by God for humans and not made in heaven is really a failed thinking.

    There is not a single choice of human extraction that is not failure and/or results in failure.

    From Eden to the final Amen, the Scriptures clearly display that there is no condition in which God recognizes the choices of humankind to ascend to heaven a righteousness. People certainly make choices, but the unbeliever may only make choices that are ultimately failure, decay, ungodly, ... just as the people of Israel who emotionally proclaimed agreement with Moses, but their heart was not changed. This is part of the message of Romans 10.

    So, I post your work, only to allow the thread to link it to this post.

    Not that I find your work remarkable.

     
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The unsaved lost sinner has no innate faith within them to get saved, as any who are saved have been given to them saving faith by the Holy Spirit Himself!
     
  12. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    I disagree. The Old Testament was written allegorically so that we would understand the principles of the New Testament's freedom. It is a "tutor" that should lead us to Christ. Insomuch, then, we can apply all of the OT principles to NT faith. In fact, salvation by grace through faith alone originated in Genesis with Abraham (430 years before the law was given, so it is outside of the law).

    The choice presented in Deuteronomy 30 is not between The Law and Faith, but rather between Life and Death. Jesus came and said "I am the way, the Truth, and the Life." He was indicating He is the choice God gave them to make if they wished to choose Life. .

    In fact, we all have God's word on our hearts. Do you recall the name God gave the tree that Adam was not to eat from? The tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil. One might say this tree is The Law. To know Good and Evil, one must have The Law. To know The Law one must have it written on their heart. A heart with God's Law written on it cannot be completely depraved as Calvin suggested.

    Rom 2:14
    For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
    15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,​

    Even those estranged from God have His law written on their hearts... this has been true since the Fall in Eden. This is so that none have an excuse on the day of judgment.

    Ultimately, it is true that all have failed to meet God's standard of righteousness, so yes, in that sense all have failed. How many have failed to be born? Righteousness through faith is to be born again... do you try and fail at being born? Is your birthright earned or do you receive it based on to whom you were born? Faith qualifies us for human adoption under Abraham and we Christ's righteousness. It is not earned of ourselves, but it was earned by Christ and freely given to all the descendants because of a promise. So then we know that it is not God acting on human behavior to give righteousness, but rather God acting toward the righteousness of Christ and making a promise to Himself and Christ and it is God's will to honor His Word which imparts life to the sinful.

    Just how does God choose whom His holy people are?

    Deuteronomy 7:6
    For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.
    7 The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples,
    8 but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
    9 Know therefore that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God, who keeps His covenant and His lovingkindness to a thousandth generation with those who love Him and keep His commandments;

    Nehemiah 9:7
    You are the LORD God, Who chose Abram And brought him out from Ur of the Chaldees, And gave him the name Abraham.
    8 You found his heart faithful before You, And made a covenant with him To give him the land of the Canaanite, Of the Hittite and the Amorite, Of the Perizzite, the Jebusite and the Girgashite— To give it to his descendants. And You have fulfilled Your promise, For You are righteous.


    John 6:64
    But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.
    65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”


    1Peter 1:2
    [chosen] according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

    John Calvin himself said of God’s predestined elect, “God has attested this [predestination] not only in individual persons, but has given us an example of it in the whole offspring of Abraham."

    So even John Calvin recognized that God chose Abraham’s descendants as a group, and not each person individually. God’s elect (or chosen) are those who inherit the oath he made with Abraham. Those who are qualified as heirs of the promise or covenant.

    Do you believe this is what Jesus meant when He said "You will know my sheep by their love." And do you think insulting a person makes them more likely to listen to and consider accepting your arguments or less likely? If I may offer some advice; I recommend you reconsider this debate strategy.
     
  13. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    repeating talking points from your theology does not make them true.
     
  14. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    The Bible calls faith "mere belief" and goes so far as to say believing a news report is sufficient to be considered faith.


    Jhn 12:38
    This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?”
    TOOLS

    Rom 10:16
    However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?”

    Isa 53:1
    Who has believed our message?
    And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?​

    Abraham was made righteous for his faith in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. God told him "All the nations will be blessed in you." Paul called this "the gospel" because God was speaking of Jesus when He said it, and mere belief in this statement (about Christ) was enough to make Abraham righteous.

    Gal 3:6
    Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.
    7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.
    8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.”
    9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.​

    Faith doesn't cause regeneration... faith causes human adoption. As adopted descendants of Abraham, we inherit the righteousness God gave to Abraham because of God's promise in Genesis 17:7. Most of the church is unaware of how this works (and knowledge of how it works isn't required for it to work).

    Gen 17:7
    I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.​

    We all inherit salvation... none of us earns it directly. Our faith doesn't move God to regenerate us... God's promise to Abraham that his descendants would inherit the promise moves God to regenerate us. Our faith merely qualifies us for HUMAN ADOPTION as the spiritual descendants of Abraham. This is why both Calvinism and Arminianism are both wrong. Both falsely assume faith is a cause of righteousness. It is not. Faith is a cause of human adoption. God honoring his promise to let Abraham's descendants inherit the righteousness he was given is the cause of righteousness being imputed.

    When we have the same faith in the gospel (mere belief in the news about Christ) that Abraham had, we are his spiritual descendants and heirs according to the promise.

    Gal 3:26
    For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
    27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
    28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
    29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.​
     
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Not opinion, as Paul said that in Ephesians 2:8-10!
     
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Sinners cannot have 'saving faith" until the Holy Spirit regenerates them!
     
  17. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    Gotcha--I do not see that in the passage you give. This "enabling faith" sounds very Gnostic to me....
     
  18. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    According to the statement of Christ, prior to the cross there were two estates that folks inhabited when dead. One called "paradise" and the other "hades."

    Therefore, the redeemed did not have to wait until the cross to be redeemed, but were already, yet not complete. The poor man Lazarus was "not condemned already" as that rich man was but was as all believers, "not condemned."

    If the believers of the OT were "not condemned" that means that the blood was shed (for without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin) in atonement for them either before they lived or while they lived. For there is no escape from condemnation without the shed blood.

    Do you recall a verse that short little verse in the Revelation 13? I records that the lamb was slain before the foundations of the world were set in place.


    There are those who would like God to be conformed to the time and space of human reckoning, yet there is no reason that one should assume that the work of the crucifixion was not already an accomplished fact from the beginning from God's perspective. That the blood shed in human history was factually shed from the foundations established as earth.

    Remember Rev. 5 there is a search made of heaven and great sorrow when none was found to take the scroll? Yet, there was the one who appeared as a lamb slain.

    When it comes to salvation (from the tabernacle to the cross) the earth is reflecting that which is in factually present in heaven (Hebrews 8 if I recall correctly).

    Certainly, the crucifixion was real, the blood was actual, and all that went into the crucifixion took place in human time. However, the OT saints were not in Hades, but rested in the "Bosom of Abraham" as all the not condemned already did prior to the cross. They could do so, because in heaven human events such as the cross was already an accomplished fact.





    Remember the Lord's table has TWO elements. It is not only the blood, but the body. So when reading such verses as it is the complete package (blood and body) that is in consideration, not one or the other. The blood had a specific mission, the body had a specific mission. Together they accomplished what was necessary for reconciliation.

    The OT saints did not wait on redemption, but were already redeemed. They were perfected in Him.

    What they waited upon was the resurrection of Christ. That resurrection was not a completeness of perfection, but the completeness of the promise.

    There is no more a place called "paradise" in which the keeping of the redeemed reside until the resurrection. When the believer discards this earthly husk, we are present with the Lord, just as the OT saints are currently.

    In the days of my rebellion and brokenness.
     
  19. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Actually both were the same place, simply divided. Of course, we have to draw on tradition rather than Scripture, but, we can with authority say that men did not go into Heaven, because the way into Heaven was not yet made manifest, and would not be until Christ died on the Cross and prepared the way.

    "Paradise," like "The Bosom of Abraham," was a euphemism for the Just compartment of Sheol/Hades in Jewish tradition. However, we do see it used to refer to heaven after the Cross:


    2 Corinthians 12:4
    King James Version (KJV)

    4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.



    We assume that since believers no longer reside in Sheol/Hades awaiting redemption, that it is Heaven in view here, and I think that a good assumption.

    This...


    Revelation 2:7
    King James Version (KJV)

    7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.



    ...is a reference to the Eternal State, and is found in New Jerusalem, however, I would suggest that in the Eternal State Heaven and the earthly dwelling place of man is bridged, so to speak, and the division between the physical and eternal are not as distinct as they are now.

    And that is just my view. Its a little complicated, but I see New Jerusalem as basically proceeding from both God's Realm, Heaven, yet also accessible by the Saints from earth.

    And I will pause there because the next issue is what I see as more important to understand.


    Continued...
     
  20. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    Ephesians 1 tells us the order is hear the gospel, believe (faith), then regeneration.

    Eph 1:13
    In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
    14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.​

    "Saving faith" doesn't regenerate a person. "Saving faith" merely qualifies a person for human adoption. God's promise to Abraham that his descendants would inherit righteousness is what regenerates a person, but this process is indirect.

    Col 1:12
    giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.

    Heb 9:15
    For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

    1Pe 1:3
    Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
    4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,​


    This is why you must be "born again." You must be born as a child of God, or adopted as children of Abraham. Faith DOES NOT have the power to regenerate a person. It is merely a human qualifier for being considered the descendant of Abraham.

    I ask Calvinists this question: Are the Jews God's holy, chosen people? Which ones? Does God consider the whole of Abraham's offspring elect (as John Calvin himself stated) as a holy, chosen people? Does being descended from a Jew qualify one as a Jew (and therefore part of the elect group) or do they have to earn their family ethnicity?

    So we see that being adopted as a child of Abraham (again - a human adoption with no mystical, special regeneration involved) is sufficient to qualify for God's promise in Genesis 17:7 that all of Abraham's descendants would inherit the righteousnesses he was given.
     
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