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Featured Irrational theology.

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by 37818, Dec 6, 2023.

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  1. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Only in the symbolism of the believers immersion, Romans 6:3-4, ". . . even so we also should walk in newness of life. . . ."
     
  2. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    It seems you missed these words or do you just ignore them?
    Rev 20:4 .... Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands.

    Where is this image of the beast and what about the make on their hand or forehead?

    I can understand why you like the allegorical approach to scripture, you can make it say whatever you want it to say so your never wrong.
     
  3. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    When you finish listening to this round table, get back to me.
     
  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    "Quickening" translates the Greek word "Zoopoieo" (G2227). The idea is to "make alive" and since it is applied to physically living people, the idea is to make spiritually alive from the prior condition of being "spiritually dead."

    Here are the verses where our word appears: John 5:21, 6:63; Romans 4:17, 8:11; 1 Corinthians 15:22, 15:36, 15:45; 2 Corinthians 3:6; Galatians 3:21; 1 Timothy 6:13; 1 Peter 3:18.

    Thus the word does not refer to a bodily redemption, but to our new birth in Christ. The new birth occurs when we are made alive together with Christ, thus when God transfers our human spirit into the spiritual body of Christ and not before. This can be seen at Ephesians 2:5 and Colossians 2:13 where our word is compounded with a modifier meaning together or with or accompanied by.
     
    #64 Van, Dec 9, 2023
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2023
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  5. Piper

    Piper Active Member
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    Amen, that was me. I was a member of Piper's church back then and he did stuff like this.
     
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  6. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    So quickening is Baptism?... Brother Glen:)
     
  7. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The plain reading of Revelation 20:5-6, ". . . But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. . . ." Is explicitly speaking about physical bodily resurrections of the saved and the rest of the dead in the Judgement, Revelation 20:11-15.
     
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  8. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    I disagree. The apocalyptic nature of the book does not require this. According to the discussion @Piper linked, the only time the Greek word is used in the Bible is here. In other texts it is used as physical resurrection, but this does not demand it be viewed that way as the context of Revelation does not demand it. If this is the only issue against Amillennialism, then it is a minor issue, especially in comparison with the vast inconsistencies of premillennial futuristic dispensationalism.
     
  9. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    What is this fixation you have with man telling you what the bible says. Do you not trust the Holy Spirit? Secondly do you not think you can read and understand the text of the bible?
     
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  10. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    @taisto since you seem to want to trust what men say. Here are comments on G386 resurrection.

    In Rev_20:4-6 we read of two distinct resurrections of the dead, with 1,000 years between, in which risen saints reign with Christ. By those who spiritualize most of Rev., it is claimed that since verse four speaks of the souls of the saints and not of their bodies, this must refer to the spiritual resurrection when a believer is resurrected from his old life of sin to a new life of regeneration. The verb used in relation to these souls is "beheaded" (pepelekisménoi, the pl. perf. pass. part. of pelekízō [G3990], to behead, from pélekos, an axe), and the reference is to the souls which have been beheaded. The word pelekízō is used only here and it cannot be spiritualized. This is a literal resurrection of the body since the word "resurrection" is used in referring to the body, for the most part, and only once figuratively in Luk_2:34.

    The condition indicated in Rev_20:4, however, is not that of a spiritual regeneration from spiritual death, but of actual death of the body. The vision of Rev. chapter twenty speaks about disembodied spirits or souls. These are the souls of those who died, death being interpreted as the separation of the spirit from the material body. There is only one way that we can interpret the reviving of the souls and that is their reunion with their separated bodies. Therefore, the resurrection actually is when the departed spirit is joined together with a new body. In verse four, we read that these disembodied souls or spirits "lived" (ézēsan, the aor. indic. of záō [G2198], which word is never applied in any instance in the NT to the souls in their disembodied state). However, it is constantly used to describe that reanimation by which the soul is united again to its tabernacle of the flesh. The souls from their disembodied existence receive again an identifiable existence but in a different form.

    All throughout 1 Cor. 15 the verb zōopoiéō (1Co_15:22, 1Co_15:36, 1Co_15:45), translated "to quicken," without any doubt whatsoever means the resurrection of the body from the dead. The word in these instances means to make alive, to make a new living person which is achieved by raising the body to be united with the separated soul-spirit. Thus we affirm that the verb ézēsan, they lived, in the latter part of Rev_20:4, must refer to the resurrection of the body and the reunification of that resurrected body with the spirit-soul of those who were dead. To affirm that this is so in verse six we have a definitive reference that this is the first resurrection, or as the Gr. has it, "the resurrection, the first one [hēanástasis hēprṓtē]" (a.t.).
    Of the forty-two times in the NT that the word anástasis occurs, with the exception of Luk_2:34, it always means the resurrection of the body. It is never used with the meaning of spiritual regeneration or quickening. Furthermore, the two resurrections contrasted cannot be one spiritual and the other physical for there is a chronological separation between the two.

    The entire scene revealed here is that of judgment (Rev_20:12), and it is the dead, small and great, standing before the Lord to be judged. It is a contrast between the people who were not adequately and completely judged during their lifetime on earth but are being judged in the afterlife in their reconstituted personalities. Thus the meaning is clear that the souls spoken of in Rev_20:4 are those whose bodies are resurrected and joined with their souls as indicated in verse twelve. Spiros Zodhiates, Th.D. "The Complete WordStudy Dictionary"

    the ἡ - ἡ first πρώτη. resurrection. ἀνάστασις
    ἡ ἀνάστασις ἡ πρώτη
    in Rev_20:5 f will be that of true Christians, and at the end of a thousand years will be followed by a second resurrection, that of all the rest of mankind, Rev_20:12 ff On the question whether and in what sense Paul also believed in two resurrections, separated from each other by a definite space of time Thayer's Unabridged Greek - english Lexicon of the New Testament
     
  11. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Not at all. The believer's immersion symbolizes it.
     
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  12. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    I do not expect you to agree. Your disagreement does not make it's plain reading of the text of Revelation 20:1-15 not mean it's plain meaning.
     
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  13. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

    8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.


    Brother Glen:)
     
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  14. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    If you take Revelation chronologically with chapter 19 preceding chapter 20 in time, then you are at a loss for why there is ever a short rebellion in Revelation 20. We read in
    Revelation 19:11-21...
    Then I saw heaven opened, and a white horse was standing there. Its rider was named Faithful and True, for he judges fairly and wages a righteous war. His eyes were like flames of fire, and on his head were many crowns. A name was written on him that no one understood except himself. He wore a robe dipped in blood, and his title was the Word of God. The armies of heaven, dressed in the finest of pure white linen, followed him on white horses. From his mouth came a sharp sword to strike down the nations. He will rule them with an iron rod. He will release the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty, like juice flowing from a winepress. On his robe at his thigh was written this title: King of all kings and Lord of all lords. Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, shouting to the vultures flying high in the sky: “Come! Gather together for the great banquet God has prepared. Come and eat the flesh of kings, generals, and strong warriors; of horses and their riders; and of all humanity, both free and slave, small and great.” Then I saw the beast and the kings of the world and their armies gathered together to fight against the one sitting on the horse and his army. And the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who did mighty miracles on behalf of the beast—miracles that deceived all who had accepted the mark of the beast and who worshiped his statue. Both the beast and his false prophet were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. Their entire army was killed by the sharp sword that came from the mouth of the one riding the white horse. And the vultures all gorged themselves on the dead bodies.

    Note that all who are marked by the beast, the beast, and the false prophet are judged and destroyed.

    Now, go to
    Revelation 20:1-15.
    Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the bottomless pit and a heavy chain in his hand. He seized the dragon—that old serpent, who is the devil, Satan—and bound him in chains for a thousand years. The angel threw him into the bottomless pit, which he then shut and locked so Satan could not deceive the nations anymore until the thousand years were finished. Afterward he must be released for a little while. Then I saw thrones, and the people sitting on them had been given the authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony about Jesus and for proclaiming the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years. This is the first resurrection. (The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.) Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. For them the second death holds no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him a thousand years.

    When the thousand years come to an end, Satan will be let out of his prison. He will go out to deceive the nations—called Gog and Magog—in every corner of the earth. He will gather them together for battle—a mighty army, as numberless as sand along the seashore. And I saw them as they went up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded God’s people and the beloved city. But fire from heaven came down on the attacking armies and consumed them. Then the devil, who had deceived them, was thrown into the fiery lake of burning sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. The Final Judgment And I saw a great white throne and the one sitting on it. The earth and sky fled from his presence, but they found no place to hide. I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God’s throne. And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books. The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave gave up their dead. And all were judged according to their deeds. Then death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death. And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire.


    Since all the wicked are killed in Revelation 19, where does the rebellion come from in Revelation 20? These must be offspring of the redeemed. Were the redeemed still in their sin and passing on their sinful nature in the literal 1000 years? Was Christ insufficient? How does this happen?

    Also, in the preemill view there is a third coming of Christ. First coming, AD 0. Second coming, Revelation 19. Third coming, Revelation 20. Yet, the Bible never talks about a 3rd coming if Jesus. Only a premillennial view would see it and it would only ever be seen in one verse in Revelation 20.

    Since this is a thread on irrational theology, I contend that premillennialism is the least rational of the views.
     
  15. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    No. Revelation 20:7-9, ". . . And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: . . ."
     
    #75 37818, Dec 9, 2023
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2023
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  16. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Revelation 19:21, ". . . and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. . . ."
    Matthew 24:28, "For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together."

    Matthew 24:37-43, "For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up."

    The taken. . . .

    Revelation 14:20, ". . . And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs."

    Revelation 19:13, ". . . And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: . . ."

    Isaiah 63:2-3, "Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat? I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment."
     
  17. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    How will Satan deceive the nations who are all made up of redeemed Christians, since Revelation 19 tells you that all the unredeemed were fed to the vultures?

    How do you account for what comes beforehand in history (by a premillennial perspective)?
     
  18. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    Great verses. I know how I would understand them.
    What is your point in sharing them?
     
  19. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    I did listen to it and the points that Jim Hamilton made were to my mind the most logical and biblical. Jim, Doug and Sam all made good arguments for and stated they positions well. Where Sam lost it was when he stated that the millennium refers to time in heaven. His arguments re Rev 20:1-6 did not seem that logical and did not fit with the rest of Rev. Doug's post mill which he did a good job of presenting does not fit scripture as I read it.

    Over all the pre mill view stood out as the most biblical.
     
  20. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    How do you jive the destruction of all sinners in Revelation 19, before the 1000 years, and then, with no explanation, there are sinners again in Revelation 20?

    How do you explain 2 returns of Christ instead of one, as the Bible always presents only one return?

    There is some significant inconsistencies that cannot be ignored in premillennialism.
     
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