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Featured Irrational theology.

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by 37818, Dec 6, 2023.

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  1. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    Where do you find God being the only one worshipped in the Millennium?
    First, you cannot force Zechariah 14 into your millennium. Nothing in the text allows it. Second, Revelation 20 doesn't say anything about only worshipping God.

    You have a theory and you're desperately trying to make verses fit into your theory. That's eisegesis with extremely bad exegesis.

    (Revelation 20:1-10)
    Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the bottomless pit and a heavy chain in his hand. He seized the dragon—that old serpent, who is the devil, Satan—and bound him in chains for a thousand years. The angel threw him into the bottomless pit, which he then shut and locked so Satan could not deceive the nations anymore until the thousand years were finished. Afterward he must be released for a little while. Then I saw thrones, and the people sitting on them had been given the authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony about Jesus and for proclaiming the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years. This is the first resurrection. (The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.) Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. For them the second death holds no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him a thousand years. The

    When the thousand years come to an end, Satan will be let out of his prison. He will go out to deceive the nations—called Gog and Magog—in every corner of the earth. He will gather them together for battle—a mighty army, as numberless as sand along the seashore. And I saw them as they went up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded God’s people and the beloved city. But fire from heaven came down on the attacking armies and consumed them. Then the devil, who had deceived them, was thrown into the fiery lake of burning sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
     
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  2. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    No pre-mill claims a third coming in Revelation 20. We keep telling you Jesus is on the earth the entire 1,000 years. It is your irrational view that states Jesus is not on the earth, and needs to come a third time.

    Why was Eve decieved? You asked why Satan needed to decieve people after a thousand years. It is not their condition at all that necessitates deception. Eve did not need to be deceived. Satan was allowed to deceive her. Eve was not a sinner either at that point. So why claim those at the end of the Millennium have to still be sinners? That thought is not rational. Even if perfect humans like Eve without sin can be deceieved, deception does not determine their state prior to being deceived. Deception brings about a result desired by Satan. The deception is Satan's intended result. People currently live in a deceived state not knowing the truth of God's Word and power.

    Satan was allowed for no apparent stated reason, unless you take the book of Job into consideration, to decieve Eve. God allowed Satan to decieve in order to put humans under a test to see how willing they are to rebel against God. In Revelation 20:8 we see humanity put to the test again. The reason why there was no sin in the Millennium is because in Daniel 9:24 it was promised that sin and transgression would be removed.

    Satan was loosed to deceive the nations, and John states a reason.

    "And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea."

    This war and battle never even happens, as they are all consumed by fire before fighting even starts. Satan deceieved Eve to try eating the fruit. Satan will deceive many people to start a war when no one has had any wars for a thousand years. Satan did not appear to Job, and straight up deceieved Job. Satan took another route that took everything away from Job even his health. But the end result for all 3 examples is to turn humans against God.

    Deception does not need humans to be sinners. Deception does not need humans to be righteous, or without sin. Saying these people had to be a certain way to deny this millennium is not rational.

    Most dispensationalist claim there are still sinners who are constantly dying in a state of death. They have no proof in Scripture to verify that. You think there is no proof that Jesus is on the earth. What point is a second coming if Jesus does not come to earth? Are you saying Jesus was never on the earth at the first coming to be consistent in your rational thinking of what a coming even is? The first coming could be just as symbolic as your second coming. It would be irrational to say one was physical and the other was only symbolic. If you are going to make up your own symbolic second coming why not state those in the 2nd century made up their own symbolic first coming that never happened? Seems amil throughout time are irrational and literally have two definitions of the word "coming". One literal and the other only figurative.
     
  3. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    The first irrational thought is claiming those in the Millennium were redeemed Christians.

    Were Adam and Eve redeemed Christians, who fell out of redemption with God? At what point in his earthly life did Abraham become a redeemed Christian? Paul points out that Abraham was a redeemed Christ follower at the Cross, in the word "firstfruits" that is plural. Abraham had to wait as a soul until the Cross to be redeemed out of Adam's curse of sin and death. Then Abraham as a firstfruit in Christ entered Paradise physically and the redemption was the return of that original physical body as a son of God. Is redemption to you only in a symbolic name, ie redeemed Christian? Is redemption having the Holy Spirit working in you? Ephesians 4:30

    "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."

    What is the day of redemption to you since Paul indicates that we are sealed and waiting for redemption. The redeemed do start out that first day of the Millennium. But in what sense are they redeemed? That is the point people are missing here. The day of redemption is different for every individual. These people who are redeemed, have already experienced the day of redemption. They are not redeemed in name, waiting for the day of redemption. Abraham was redeemed because the Lamb from God's perspective was slain prior to creation itself. Abraham was covered, and even sealed by the Holy Spirit. But yet Abraham had to wait for the Cross for that day of redemption. Now, since the Cross, we still have to wait, but not for the Cross, as that was already physically in the past. So can anyone here give us the point of what is literally redemption? I don't see any one understanding the Millennium until they see that point.
     
  4. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    No third coming?

    Then Jesus doesn't comeback after the short time when Satan stirs up the nations after the 1000 year reign?

    Or, Jesus doesn't come to earth to reign for 1000 years?

    Which of the above doesn't happen?

    If they both happen, then, in your view, Jesus comes to earth 3 times, not 2.

    So, those who would be deceived, in your view, after the 1000 year reign of Christ, would not be sinners, but saints who are incited to kill other saints by Satan's deception?

    Is that correct? Do you believe that?
    How do you get that from Revelation 20:1-10?

    So, perfect humanity falls in the garden a second time?
    How do you ever find that in the Bible? You are making up a fantastical narrative from thin air.

    So, perfect humans are made imperfect by Satan's deception? You have no supporting text in the Bible, but you have a fantastical narrative for a movie.

    So perfect humans can, and will rebel against Jesus, even though Jesus has redeemed them. In your view, somehow Satan, makes Jesus payment null and void a second time.

    I must say, your view is as irrational as I have ever read.

    I am saying that the millennium is now. Satan is presently bound for a period of time (while our King is on his long journey [see Matthew 25]) and there will be a short time at the end when Satan is given the same allowance to attack Christians as he was with Job, except then Satan can kill the Church. It is at that time when Christ will return. That will be his 2nd return. That will be when he comes with the sword of judgment in his mouth. That is when he speaks the word and all humanity (outside of the church) is consumed by His wrath (just as Revelation 19 tells us).

    You demand a linear timeline in Revelation, but John is not giving you a linear timeline. Until you recognize your error, you will not understand.
     
  5. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    Explain Revelation 19.
    (Revelation 19:18)
    Come and eat the flesh of kings, generals, and strong warriors; of horses and their riders; and of all humanity, both free and slave, small and great.”

    Those who enter into Christ's reign are all the redeemed. Only those found in Christ will remain.
     
  6. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    How can they attack the church if the church is not on the earth? What defines the camp of the saints as the church? Those beheaded would be the only people around as the camp of the saints, and you argue they are not on the earth. What is it? Are they on the earth after being beheaded or not on the earth, because they have been beheaded and no longer in a physical body? Why does it state they are all beheaded, if some are still on the earth not beheaded?
     
  7. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    When you die, when brothers and sisters are killed for Christ, where do they go?

    What does Ephesians 1:21-23 tell you about Christ and his present rule?

    What does Ephesians 2:6-7 tell you about the saints and their reign with Christ?

    You keep wanting to push the reign of Christ out into the future when the Bible is telling you that it is in the present.

    The first resurrection is our salvation from death to life. When our bodies die, our "headless" spirits are with Christ and we reign with him.

    Therefore, we are presently in the millennium. It isn't a future state along your linear timeline, which you keep demanding.
     
  8. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    No, Jesus does not leave at the end of the thousand years. There is no battle, and creation is not mucked up by Satan. You are forcing things into the text just to sound irrational.

    Were the rebel angels sinners?

    I am not demanding anything. You are.
     
  9. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    So Jesus just hangs around while Satan deceives everyone?

    Come on, you know better than this. Read the text.
    (Revelation 20:7-10)
    And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

    For you to make the statements that you do, you cannot be in the premillennial camp. Are you a preterist?
     
  10. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    They are restored to God's permanent incorruptible physical body. They don't have a sin nature. Neither will their offspring. They represent Adam before Adam disobeyed God.

    They can still die due to disobedience. But they will not live in death, like we do. Those who disobey will be removed from the earth. If Adam had not disobeyed for 5,000 years, the Garden would be full of his offspring. That is what the Millennium is for. To subdue the earth, where Adam failed. Jesus is the second death Adam and will reign over 25 to 30 generations of humanity filling the earth.

    That is what Isaiah 65 and Zechariah 14 declare. Not more of Adam's dead flesh. But those in the same physical body Jesus has, incorruptible and permanent. The restoration places earth and humanity back to the position Adam was in before he disobeyed God.

    None of Adam's dead flesh enters the Millennium, not even "redeemed" Christians like you and I still in Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

    Creation will always have law and order. Just not like Adam's commandment, nor the Law of Moses that was only about sin and death.
     
  11. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Revelation 20 does not declare headless spirits. Why do you keep making stuff up?

    No one is currently reigning in Jerusalem over the entire earth. Sin is still enforce. Humans are still in a body of death.

    All those since 30AD are enjoying the first resurrection in permanent incorruptible physical bodies in Paradise. No one is waiting for a resurrection. 2 Corinthians 5:1

    "For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

    No one is walking around naked without a body in Paradise.

    No one is marrying nor given in marriage in Paradise. They serve God day and night in that heavenly temple. There are so many up there, they cannot be counted by first century standards. Perhaps up to a billion already gathered in Paradise. The first resurrection is physical and is the redemption once a soul leaves Adam's dead corruptible physical body and enters God's permanent incorruptible physical body.
     
  12. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Satan does not deceive everybody. How many people do you think it would take to fill the earth? 20 billion? 30 billion? 100 billion? Only a billion may follow Satan after this 1,000 years of perfection. The camp of the saints is the first generation. Several million living in and around Jerusalem. Perhaps even 10 million, or 100 million. You obviously don't even understand the final harvest people call the great tribulation mentioned in Matthew 13 and Matthew 25. Neither do dispensationalists.

    I am pre-mill not dispensational. I don't follow human theology especially not amil. 144k of Israel are just the inner circle. There will be millions of Israel redeemed in the final harvest. Then millions of every nation on earth, the wheat separated from the tares.

    That is not even including those beheaded, if there are any. Those last 42 months may not even happen. We have to get through the Second Coming and the final harvest before those 42 months are even determined during the days of the 7th Trumpet.

    Revelation 20 does point out these rebels are from the very edge of society, the 4 corners of civilization. The last one or two generations, and not even all of them. They literally have to cross the whole breadth of the earth to even get to Israel. So we have small groups from the edge of the map who make a large group by the time they near Israel. Then they are literally consumed by fire after their long trip. The point is they listened to Satan, not that they did anything else but march for weeks only to be consumed by fire. Satan is an angel. He can move around the edge sowing his deception or not even move, nor meet people face to face. He can work on the mind, no? That is what Amil say that he is on a long leash and can work from house arrest. Satan will be bound and cannot even work on people's minds during this thousand years.

    I agree with Amil when they say the Second Coming is the end of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. So don't contradict your own argument by stating Adam's dead corruptible flesh enters the Millennium. You have convinced yourself this future millennium started 1993 years ago, even if that is irrational. You should probably just leave it at that. Satan may not even get 42 months now. You probably should not give him anything but deception at the end of this future Millennium. Giving Satan too much credit is also irrational.
     
  13. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    "Quickening" translates the Greek word "Zoopoieo" (G2227). The idea is to "make alive" and since it is applied to physically living people, the idea is to make spiritually alive from the prior condition of being "spiritually dead."

    Here are the verses where our word appears: John 5:21, 6:63; Romans 4:17, 8:11; 1 Corinthians 15:22, 15:36, 15:45; 2 Corinthians 3:6; Galatians 3:21; 1 Timothy 6:13; 1 Peter 3:18.

    Thus the word does not refer to a bodily redemption, but to our new birth in Christ. The new birth occurs when we are made alive together with Christ, thus when God transfers our human spirit into the spiritual body of Christ and not before. This can be seen at Ephesians 2:5 and Colossians 2:13 where our word is compounded with a modifier meaning together or with or accompanied by.
     
  14. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

    8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.


    Brother Glen:)
     
  15. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Well, four references are interpreted to refer to a bodily resurrection.

    Romans 8:11, ". . . But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. . . ."

    1 Corinthians 15:22, ". . . For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. . . ."

    1 Corinthians 15:35-36, ". . .
    But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die : . . ."

    1 Peter 3:18, ". . . For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: . . ."
     
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  16. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yes, to be "born of God" is to be "made alive together with Christ."
     
  17. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Three of the four references do not refer to being made alive as referring to our future bodily redemption.

    Romans 8:11 says if you have been made spiritually alive as indicated by being indwelt, then in the future your body will be made alive. But your point is valid, G2227, is used to refer to being made physically alive in the future, but only in this one verse.

    1 Corinthians 15:22 refers to the fact everybody transferred into Christ will be then made alive spiritually.

    1 Corinthians 15:36 refers to the "death" of being spiritually dead, thus to be made spiritually alive, causes our state of being spiritually dead to "die."

    1 Peter 3:18 refers to sinners being made alive in the spirit (spiritually alive together with Christ).
     
  18. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    We understand those verses differently, as I had said, "four references are interpreted to refer to a bodily resurrection." As you originally explained them not to be so.
     
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  19. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I provided evidence your view was in error 2 of 4 times

    1 Corinthians 15:36 refers to the "death" of being spiritually dead, thus to be made spiritually alive, causes our state of being spiritually dead to "die."

    1 Peter 3:18 refers to sinners being made alive in the spirit (spiritually alive together with Christ).

     
    #139 Van, Dec 16, 2023
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2023
  20. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Here is the original post, edited to correct my error.

    "Quickening" translates the Greek word "Zoopoieo" (G2227). The idea is to "make alive" and since it is applied to physically living people, the idea is to make spiritually alive from the prior condition of being "spiritually dead."

    Here are the verses where our word appears: John 5:21, 6:63; Romans 4:17, 8:11; 1 Corinthians 15:22, 15:36, 15:45; 2 Corinthians 3:6; Galatians 3:21; 1 Timothy 6:13; 1 Peter 3:18.

    Thus the word (except in Romans 8:11 and 1 Corinthians 15:22) does not refer to a bodily redemption, but to our new birth in Christ. The new birth occurs when we are made alive together with Christ, thus when God transfers our human spirit into the spiritual body of Christ and not before. This can be seen at Ephesians 2:5 and Colossians 2:13 where our word is compounded with a modifier meaning together or with or accompanied by.
     
    #140 Van, Dec 16, 2023
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2023
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