1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Justification by Faith

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Mar 16, 2023.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    26,742
    Likes Received:
    1,005
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Almost all Christians would claim to believe we were justified by faith, and perhaps quote Romans 3:28, which says we are justified by faith and not by the works of the Law. If pressed, many Christians would define “works of the law” as the actions we take to conform to the requirements of the Law, rather than what the “law” actually accomplishes, which is to make us aware of our sin and lead us to Christ.

    So lets back up and ask the question, justified by whose faith? Does our faith justify us? If we took a poll, would not a large group, perhaps even a majority, say our faith justifies us? But that would be a works based salvation would it not. Ah but you say faith is not a work.

    Maybe we should back up again and consider “justified by whom?” Were we justified by what we did or by what Christ did on the cross? The free gift of justification to life was provided by Christ on the cross, Romans 5:18. So it was Christ’s faithfulness, even unto death on the cross, which provided the propitiation for the whole world. So then the question becomes, how did we “receive” that gift or have that gift applied to us individually?

    So it would seem, then that our faith in Christ provides access to Christ’s free gift of justification by the grace of God. But does that too miss the mark? I think so. Would not our faith in effect “save us” then and make us the actual architect of our salvation?

    So if our placing our faith in Christ does not automatically save us, then God must credit our faith as righteousness and spiritually place us “in Christ” which saves us because in Christ we receive the justification to life provided by Christ. Wow now that is a systematic theology that fits with all scripture.
     
  2. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,817
    Likes Received:
    2,106
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Ephesians 2:8. 'For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.'
    Acts 2:21, quoting Joel 2:30. And it shall come to pass that whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.'
    Acts 16:31. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.....'

    Far from having our faith reviewed by God to see if it is good enough, the fact is that faith is the gift of God and He only gives good gifts to His children (Matthew 7:7-11).
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  3. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    5,315
    Likes Received:
    449
    Faith:
    Baptist
    In the passage you referenced, the Bible says,

    Rans 3:25b "...God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

    26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

    God must credit his righteousness for the remission of sins,

    God must credit his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

    I'm trying to get you to consider that the Perfect sinless "righteousness" was gained by the Perfect Jesus, Perfectly Obedient to the Law.

    And am I to be despised for suggesting,

    all men are under condemnation:

    "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;"

    and it not "our faith", mustered out of our being condemned that causes God to make us an equal exchange and "credit" us with Jesus Perfect "righteousness" that was gained by the Perfect Jesus, and His Perfect Obedience He lived out, under the Law.

    God "credits" a Condemned soul with the Pardon of their sins and gives them Justification, based on THE SUBSTITUTIONARY EXCHANGE of Jesus Perfect "righteousness" that was gained by the Perfect Jesus, and His Perfect Obedience that He lived out, under the Law, being nailed to the cross of calvary by sins like yours and mine, Him dying there, and Jesus resurrection from the dead.

    As that verse goes on to say,


    "even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


    Unless, the idea you thought up in your head (or has there been someone else that has ever thought this way(?) and was just the production of a mental exercise, trying to reason things out in a way that seemeth right to man(?)

    I am so glad you have started mentioning sin, lately.

    It was my sin that nailed the only Perfect Son of God to the cross.

    I don't know what you mean by the word sin, but in that passage you quoted, Paul gave people an idea of why they need a Savior.

    This is the kind of sin that I had that condemned me and caused me to need a Savior.

    There is No One Righteous.

    (Psalm 14:1-7)

    "...we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

    10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

    11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

    12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

    13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

    14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

    15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

    16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

    17 And the way of peace have they not known:

    18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

    19Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

    20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin...


    23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

    Then, Paul goes on to explain to saints that have already been saved, how they were saved from their sins like the sins above;

    24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

    25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

    26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


    Maybe, we're asking the wrong question...

    Justification is the result of being Pardoned from our sins, by God.

    How are we Pardoned from our sins, in a way God accepts? might be a question.

    Spiritual faith, for Salvation, is from The Holy Spirit in The New Birth and is not works, but a gift received by a Pardoned and Justified saved saints, as part of their Regeneration experience, from their sins.

    A false, fake, phony, flesh-filled spiritually dead carnal "faith", using only the Sole Liberty of a saved person or an unsaved person, to try to think they are using for a false profession of "faith" that is only a null and void 'Salvation without God' and without Regeneration, originating in a superficial evangelical obedience "faith" that is only mental head knowledge.

    Since, you are the only source of this particular philosophy in the OP., is it at all within the realm of possibilities that it may be just one more bright idea of man(?), when you assert, "God must credit our faith as righteousness"(?)

    Just asking an honest question.

    We're talking about the prospects of Eternal life and Eternal death, here.

    Yes, and that is not happening.

    Jesus is the Chief Cornerstone and Author and Finisher, of all His lively stones built up into a Spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. I Peter 2:5.

     
    #3 Alan Gross, Mar 17, 2023
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2023
  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    26,742
    Likes Received:
    1,005
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Folks, did anyone say our faith must be found "good enough" or that it will be found to be like a filthy rag?
    Still no answer how someone could be chosen by utilizing faith in the truth, without first having faith to be utilized. The gift of pre-salvation faith is a fiction and no passage, certainly not Matthew 7:7-11, even suggests the idea.
     
  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    26,742
    Likes Received:
    1,005
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yet another long non-germane copy and paste post to disrupt actual discussion.

    So if our placing our faith in Christ does not automatically save us, then God must credit our faith as righteousness and spiritually place us “in Christ” which saves us because in Christ we receive the justification to life provided by Christ. Wow now that is a systematic theology that fits with all scripture.
     
  6. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,817
    Likes Received:
    2,106
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Ephesians 2:8. 'For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.'
    Acts 2:21, quoting Joel 2:30. 'And it shall come to pass that whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.'
    Acts 16:31. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.....'

    Far from having our faith reviewed by God to see if it is good enough, the fact is that faith is the gift of God and He gives only good gifts to His children (Matthew 7:7-11).
     
  7. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    26,742
    Likes Received:
    1,005
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Did anyone say we were not saved "by grace?" Nope However Martin claims we were saved, then given faith, rather than saved by grace "through faith!"
    Still no answer how someone could be chosen by utilizing faith in the truth, (2 Thessalonians 2:13) without first having faith to be utilized. The gift of pre-salvation faith is a fiction and no passage, certainly not Matthew 7:7-11, even suggests the idea.
     
  8. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    26,742
    Likes Received:
    1,005
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Romans 3:25
    God publicly displayed him at his death as the means of reconciliation accessible through faith. This was to demonstrate his righteousness, because God in his forbearance had passed over the sins previously committed.

    Galatians 3:26
    For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God through faith.

    2 Timothy 3:15
    and how from infancy you have known the holy writings, which are able to give you wisdom for salvation
    through faith in Christ Jesus.

    The question we should ask is does God utilize faith which He does not credit as righteousness or faith that He did credit as righteousness? See Romans 4:23-25

    Romans 4:23-25 teaches God will credit the faith of those who believe - God raised Jesus from the dead - for the believer's benefit. Some deny that benefit is salvation, but it would be absurd to say God saves those whose faith He does not credit as righteousness.
     
    #8 Van, Mar 17, 2023
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2023
  9. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    10,911
    Likes Received:
    1,458
    Faith:
    Baptist
    @Martin Marprelate is correct. @Van is wrong.
    The Bible is clear that a dead person cannot exert faith. God must cause and man must be effected by what God causes. Through faith, is not the cause. Through faith is the effect by which salvation is known by the person whom God saved by grace alone.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  10. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    26,742
    Likes Received:
    1,005
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yet another "taint so" post without a shred of biblical support!!!
    The bible is clear spiritually dead people are chosen for salvation through faith. 2 Thessalonians 2:13. Additionally see post #8!!!
    And note the nonsense of claiming something done through something else does not require the something else to first exist to be utilized.

    The "gift of faith" is man-made fiction. Not one shred of support is found anywhere is scripture, but salvation through faith is found throughout scripture.
     
  11. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    10,911
    Likes Received:
    1,458
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yawn. I have provided to you Ephesians 2:1-10,ad nauseam, and you are either blind, deaf, or dumb to what God is telling you. I have provided passage after passage and yet you keep teaching a gospel not found in the Bible.
    When you are rebuked, you make up some excuse about how you didn't say something you said. It's a routine where you simply are blind and no caring believer will ever teach you anything that your heart will not receive.
     
  12. MrW

    MrW Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2020
    Messages:
    1,129
    Likes Received:
    136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Salvation is God’s gift in Ephesians 2:8; compare Romans 6:23.
     
  13. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    26,742
    Likes Received:
    1,005
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Ephesians 2:1-10 is non-germane scripture.
    Have you addressed the meaning of "through faith?" Nope
    But you have posted gratuitous insults to hide the fiction of your man-made doctrine.

    The bible is clear spiritually dead people are chosen for salvation through faith. 2 Thessalonians 2:13. Additionally see post #8!!!
    And note the nonsense of claiming something done through something else does not require the something else to first exist to be utilized.

    The "gift of faith" is man-made fiction. Not one shred of support is found anywhere is scripture, but salvation through faith is found throughout scripture.
     
  14. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    10,911
    Likes Received:
    1,458
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Sigh, I have addressed it.
    God saves by grace. God gives the gift of faith, through which the Christian is able to believe. "By grace, through faith."
    Van, we have gone over this ad nauseam. Please realize that no one is supporting your position, which is a big reason for you to pause and reevaluate. But, will you?

    The gift of faith is in Ephesians 2:1-10. You simply reject it. It's God spoken.
     
  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    26,742
    Likes Received:
    1,005
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Repeating bogus views is the sine qua non of Reformed Theology.
    Is being saved by grace at issue? Nope so needless verbiage for obfuscation.
    Can God choose someone through faith if the person has no faith to be used? Nope - but such is the claim of Reformed Theology.
    Next we get the mind reading claim that on one supports the biblical view. Childish nonsense. Even Dr. Dan Wallace declares that the pronoun "that" does not refer to "faith" but to the concept of "salvation."
     
  16. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    10,911
    Likes Received:
    1,458
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Living in isolation from all others is the sine qua non of cults.

    The scripture is clear and you are wrong all by yourself.
     
  17. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    26,742
    Likes Received:
    1,005
    Faith:
    Baptist
    More nonsense, more insults, more denial of the obvious!

    Is being saved by grace at issue? Nope so needless verbiage for obfuscation.
    Can God choose someone through faith if the person has no faith to be used? Nope - but such is the claim of Reformed Theology.
    Next we get the mind reading claim that on one supports the biblical view. Childish nonsense. Even Dr. Dan Wallace declares that the pronoun "that" in Ephesians 2:8-9 does not refer to "faith" but to the concept of "salvation."
     
  18. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    10,911
    Likes Received:
    1,458
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I have come to expect that you consider God's truth to be nonsense. It's sad, but I expect it from you. If it were just me correcting you, then you could have an argument. But multiple people show you your error and you keep calling them all nonsense. Time for you to look inward and see the error, Van.

    Carry on. I'm done here.
     
  19. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    26,742
    Likes Received:
    1,005
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Unrepentant to the end. More insults such as I consider God's truth to be nonsense.

    Can God choose someone through faith if the person has no faith to be used? Nope - but such is the claim of Reformed Theology.

    Next we get the mind reading claim that no one supports the biblical view. Childish nonsense. Even Dr. Dan Wallace declares that the pronoun "that" in Ephesians 2:8-9 does not refer to "faith" but to the concept of "salvation."

    Justification by Faith is the topic and here is the bottom line:
    If our placing our faith in Christ does not automatically save us, then God must credit our faith as righteousness and spiritually place us “in Christ” which saves us because in Christ we receive the justification to life provided by Christ. Wow now that is a systematic theology that fits with all scripture.
     
  20. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    10,911
    Likes Received:
    1,458
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Then repent already.
    God doesn't choose through faith, Van.
    God chose before the foundation of the world, before you and I ever were given faith.

    God chose us. God saved us by grace alone. God gave us faith to believe. The faith God gave us justifies us before God as God looks on Jesus and sees us as Holy in Christ alone.

    Van, you are adding a human work that God has never added. It's precisely why your message is graceless and why no one follows your teaching.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...