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Featured Luke 22:42-44 an Easter Forum

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by revmwc, Mar 10, 2024.

  1. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Luke 22:
    42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

    43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.

    44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground

    Was this prayer answered with a definitive YES My Son, was the cup removed?
    Yes it was! The cup in question based on the context was answered. The cup was not the cross as many teach, the cup was Jesus dying in the Garden with the pressure on His body.

    First we see Him praying remove this cup from me, not my will but thine. The very next thing that is said "And there appeared an Angel unto Him from Heaven." God dispatched an Angel for what purpose? To strengthen Him, to get Him through the night, to make it to the cross. The Father immediately answered Christ prayer, the cup was removed and His mission carried out as His Father sent the human side of Christ physical health.

    Next we see Christ dripping great drops of blood.
    Hematidrosis: Sometimes it seems to be caused by extreme distress or fear, such as facing death, torture, or severe ongoing abuse. It's probably where the term "sweating blood," meaning a great effort, comes from. Christ Jesus was soon to go through, Death, but torture first and He was in great distress, thus the Father sent the Angel to strengthen Him.
    How many have taught or been taught he cu was the cross, when Jesus at 12 said "Mother you know I must be about my Father's business," His whole life was lived for one purpose and one cause to make the Cross, why would He at this very moment say remove the cross from ME? He wouldn't!
     
  2. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    @revmwc,
    You have two claims

    The first is the meaning of the cup in His prayer.

    The second, the interpretation ωσει "as it were" His sweat great clots of blood was blood
     
  3. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Yes, His supplications were heard, He was saved from death [Hebrews 5:7], God raised Him from the dead.
     
  4. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Correct, Christ could have avoided the cross had He wanted:

    53 Or thinkest thou that I cannot beseech my Father, and he shall even now send me more than twelve legions of angels?
    54 How then should the scriptures be fulfilled that thus it must be? Mt 26
     
  5. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Hebrews 5;7-9, . . . Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; . . .
     
  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Philippians 2:8, . . . And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. . . .
     
  7. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    K. What's your point? You got one?
     
    #7 kyredneck, Mar 11, 2024
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2024
  8. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    The "cup" that Jesus Christ is here referring to, is His suffering on the cross. Here Jesus is speaking as from His "human nature", which is very much real like ours, with the exception of sin.

    Of course Jesus Came for the purpose of dying on the cross, but the huge horrors of suffering "in the flesh", as all too real, because He knew of the real pain and suffering, He was about to partake of.
     
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  9. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    It is quite wrong to translate the Greek verb "manthánō", as "learned", as though Jesus would have not been "obedient". It is a word that means, "to learn by use and practice; (in the preterite) to be in the habit of, accustomed to: followed by an infinitive" (Thayer Lexicon); "to learn by use and practice, acquire the habit of, be accustomed to" (Abbott-Smith); "to come to a realization, with implication of taking place less through instruction than through experience or practice, learn, appropriate to oneself...he learned obedience through what he suffered = he realized obedience through suffering" (BDAG)

    Likewise, the Greek "sṓzō", is not to be "saved from" His Death on the cross; but, "to bring safely through"
     
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  10. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Actually. You teach it yourself plain as day right here:

    And, if there was any other conceivable way, Jesus certainly
    was feeling the HORROR of His imminent demise and?

    He requested an answer, as to whether or not it was fathomable
    for there to any other means to save souls
    and avoid the cruel death of the cross.

    So, there is just no way conceivable that it was Jesus' approaching sufferings
    and death, which he had in view? It NEVER CROSSED HIS MIND?

    Maybe, IN ADDITION, TO THE PRESSING CONCERN
    HE WAS OBVIOUSLY HAVING ABOUT THAT NIGHT?

    I suppose that is why there is no mention of "dying in the Garden"?

    And that "the pressure on His body" was an urgent priority to be saved from, compared to His crucifixion?

    Let me see if I've got this...

    Matthew 26:36 Then cometh Jesus with them unto a place called Gethsemane, and saith unto the disciples, Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder.

    And Jesus figured out that He should probably say something tricky
    and highly symbolic to His Father, when He wants to ask Him
    to help Him make it through the night without dropping dead,

    so He decided that waxing poetic might be a good touch on it
    and goes to God in prayer, speaking in the familiar language of Luke 22:20
    that He had just used when implementing the Lord's Supper,
    that MIGHT REALLY GET GOD'S ATTENTION,
    when He was talking about;

    "...This cup is the New Testament in My blood, which is Shed for you
    "?

    "...This cup is the New Testament..."?

    "... in My blood"?

    "...which is Shed for you"?


    Really.

    So, then by your O.P., titled. "Luke 22:42-44..." you're saying
    that in each of the instances below, in Matthew 26,
    What Jesus had in mind that He was actually saying was;

    Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me:
    I'm not sure if I'm going to survive the night and all I need from you
    is to get an answer to this special little request I have ABOUT A CUP.

    GET IT, DAD?

    (Maybe send an Angel, or something).

    nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.


    Then;
    37 And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee,
    and began to be sorrowful and very heavy.

    About that dreaded "cup" He was GOING THOUGH that night.


    38 Then saith he unto them,
    My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death:

    All concerned and worked up about the "cup" of that night He had to face.

    tarry ye here, and watch with me.

    39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying,
    O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me:
    nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt
    .

    Because, He is terribly afraid that it's REALLY going to be a Long Night
    and that this Might actually be IT for Him.

    He's Not GOING TO MAKE IT!

    This might be "His time"?

    And that He is likely to Keel Over, if He doesn't get REAL help pretty soon.


    40 And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?

    41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

    42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father,
    if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done
    .

    SECOND TIME. SO. HE'S STILL KICKING SO FAR!!

    So Far. So Good!!


    43 And he came and found them asleep again: for their eyes were heavy.

    44 And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time,
    saying the same words.

    Same words.

    The Third Time.

    Like. "Hey. Father!!! ...About THAT "CUP"........(?)

    About that Cup?

    About that Cup?

    About that Cup?

    Remember?
     
  11. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Pulpit Commentary
    Verse 42. - Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. The three synoptists give this prayer in slightly varying terms; "but the figure of the cup is common to all the three; "it was indelibly impressed on tradition.

    This cup, which Jesus entreats God to cause to pass from before (παρά) his lips, is the symbol of that terrible punishment, the dreadful and mournful picture of which is traced before him at this moment by a skillful painter with extraordinary vividness.

    The painter is the same who in the wilderness, using a like illusion, passed before his view the magical scene -f the glories belonging to the Messianic kingdom" (Godet).

    If thou be willing. He looked on in this supreme hour, just before "the Passion" really began, to the Crucifixion

    and all the horrors which preceded it and accompanied it
    - to the treason of Judas;
    the denial of Peter;
    the desertion of the apostles;
    the cruel,
    relentless enmity of the priests and rulers;
    the heartless abandonment of the people;
    the insults;
    the scourging:
    and then the shameful and agonizing lingering death
    which was to close the Passion;

    and, more dreadful than all, the reason why he was here in Gethsemane;
    why he was to drink this dreadful cup of suffering;
    the memory of all the sin of man!


    To drink this cup of a suffering, measureless, inconceivable,
    the Redeemer for a moment shrank back,
    and asked the Father if the cross was the only means

    of gaining the glorious end in view -
    the saving the souls of unnumbered millions.


    Could not God in his unlimited power find another way of reconciliation?

    And yet beneath this awful agony, the intensity of which we are utterly incapable of grasping - beneath it there lay the intensest desire that his Father's wish and will should be done. That wish and will were in reality his own.

    The prayer was made and answered. It was not the Father's will that the cup should pass away, and the Son's will was entirely the same; it was answered by the gift of strength - strength from heaven being given to enable the Son to drink the cup of agony to its dregs. How this strength was given St. Luke relates in the next verse. Luke 22:42

    My soul is exceeding sorrowful even unto death"—"I feel as if nature would sink under this load, as if life were ebbing out, and death coming before its time"—"tarry ye here, and watch with Me"; not, "Witness for Me," but, "Bear Me company." It did Him good, it seems, to have them beside Him.

    (3) But soon even they were too much for Him: He must be alone. "He was withdrawn from them about a stone's-cast"—though near enough for them to be competent witnesses and kneeled down, uttering that most affecting prayer (Mr 14:36), that if possible "the cup," of His approaching death,
    "might pass from Him, but if not, His Father's will be done":

    implying that in itself it was so purely revolting
    that only its being the Father's will
    would induce Him to taste it,

    but that in that view of it He was perfectly prepared to drink it.

    It is no struggle between a reluctant and a compliant will, but between two views of one event—an abstract and a relative view of it, in the one of which it was revolting, in the other welcome.

    By signifying how it felt in the one view,
    He shows His beautiful oneness with ourselves in nature and feeling;


    by expressing how He regarded it in the other light, He reveals His absolute obediential subjection to His Father.

    Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary.

    Slick.

    Yes. By receiving strength from His Father to face and endure everything.
     
  12. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    I looked up a couple dozen versions on Luke 22:44
    and I don't see anywhere they have anything about,
    "Christ dripping great drops of blood".

    U?

    All of them DO record their version of a Simile in that verse,
    where they are using the words "like" or "as", though.

    "As if it were", etc.
     
  13. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    We must never forget that Jesus Christ is YHWH, Almighty God

    After His Incarnation He became the God-Man, complete in two Natures. The Divine cosubstantial with the Father and Holy Spirit, and the Human cosubstantial with ours out of Mary, sin excepted
     
  14. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    . . . εμαθεν αφ ων επαθε την υπακοην.

    How would you translate εμαθεν ?
     
  15. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    See #9
     
  16. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Hebrews 5:8-9, Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; . . .

    Philippians 2:8, And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
     
  17. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    We are blunt :Laugh
     
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  18. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Check #9 again
     
  19. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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  20. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    You you agree with me in that, the cup equals suffering unto death, even the
    death of the cross.

    Began before the cross and was finished on the cross when He said Father unto your hands I commit my Spirit.
     
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