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Featured Matthew 28:19-20 demands Landmarkism ecclesiology

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by The Biblicist, Nov 25, 2016.

  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    There is a NEW EARTH and lost people will not be dwelling on that earth. Don't you think it is a little stupid to have "kings' who reign over nobody??? These kings reign over the nations of the SAVED who dwell outside the city on the NEW EARTH.

    All saints are not in the church as the "foundation" of the church is not even laid until NT times and the "first" that are "set in" the church are not OT saints but "apostles" - 1 Cor. 12:28/ Eph. 2:20

    So not all saints are in the church and so what you are saying is clearly false. You have a system of ecclesiology that is unbiblical and it won't fit scriptures.

    It is one thing to make a charge it is quite another thing to demonstrate your assertion. Care to try? BUT NOT HERE on this thread. Please go to that thread and see if you can overthrow the evidence. Let's return to the OP instead of trying to derail it.
     
    #41 The Biblicist, Nov 26, 2016
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  2. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Revelation 21;1-2 gives the time frame and it is not during this age. Your just ignoring the language and making up your doctrine out of thin air. So, you have "kings" who rule over nobody? Yeah right, and there are green martians dwelling on the moon?!?

    However, this has nothing to do with the OP which you have not even touched. Let's get back to the OP instead of trying to derail the thread.
     
    #42 The Biblicist, Nov 26, 2016
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  3. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    My comment was not directed to you. It was directed at Yeshua1 (see his post #4 on this thread). The corrections were to his spelling. This isn't the first time.
    ****
    I missed a colon. My comment should more properly read:
    And in answer to your question, I believe the position is:
    The GC was given to local NT churches\assemblies be they landmark or non-landmark.​
     
  4. McCree79

    McCree79 Well-Known Member
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    Never said there was lost people there.

    Why are the names of tribes in New Jerusalem if the tribes are not there? The revelation of God's glory is fully built upon the testimony of apostles, therefore the foundation. Doesn't effect the contents of New Jerusalem. You are mis using 1 corthinians and Ephesians to establish who is in New Jerusalem. They were never intended to be used that way. That isnt what they mean.


    Very well, though it seems contents of the church is vital to the OP
    [/QUOTE]
     
    #44 McCree79, Nov 26, 2016
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  5. McCree79

    McCree79 Well-Known Member
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    The above should have said contents of New Jerusalem, not church

    Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk
     
  6. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    I wasn't intending to make any further contributions for a while, but this is so bad, that I can't let it pass.
    Revelation 21:23-24. The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illumines it. The lamb is its light.
    And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honour into it.'

    What does the glory of God illumine? Of what is the Lamb the light? The City; the New Jerusalem.
    So where must the nations of the saved be to walk in its light? In the City!
    Where do the kings of the earth bring their glory and honour? Into the City!
    Is there anyone outside the City? Yes. 'But outside are the dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves or practises a lie' (Revelation 22:15). The nations of the saved are inside; the nations of the unsaved are outside.

    Who are these 'kings of the earth'? We are, if we are Christians. We have received a kingdom. 'Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven' (Matthew 5:3). "And I bestow on you a kingdom, just as My Father bestowed one on Me" (Luke 22:29) 'If we endure, we shall also reign with Him' (2 Timothy 2:12). 'You are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood' (1 Peter 2:9). 'To Him who loved us .....and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father' (Revelation 1:5-6). See also Psalm 45:16; Romans 5:17; 1 Corinthians 4:8; Revelation 20:4; 22:5.

    Back to my sabbatical.
     
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  7. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Boy ever do I agree with you! My mistake as I had placed Jeshua1 on ignore and so your quote of him did not show up. I placed him on ignore because he never addresses anything with any kind of substance but simply makes wild assertions without a shred of evidence.
     
    #47 The Biblicist, Nov 27, 2016
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  8. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Well, if I must, I guess I must deal with this, even if it has NOTHING to do with the OP. We should open another thread though, as you and others are trying to derail this thread. I will give this answer and if anyone wants to follow up or attempt to refute it, please, open another thread and make it the OP OK?

    In Revelation 4-5 we are given a preview of things to come, heaven is opened and we see Christ enthroned with a green rainbow signifying the time of wrath has passed and he is ruling over all. We also see four beasts and twenty-four elders. The elders are also upon thrones and crowned ruling with Christ over a new creation wherein all bow their knees to Christ and praise his glory, all creation joins this praise. This is a preview of Revelation 21-22:3 and it is given as an encouragement to the seven congregations because of the terrible times that are to come between their day and that day (Rev. 6-19).

    When Israel encamped at Mount Sinai, the thirteen tribes were given precise places to camp around the tabernacle. The totality is a picture of all God's elect in all ages. However, twelve tribes were divided into four divisions with a tribe as the leader of each division. The thirteenth tribe (Levi) was the immediate inner circle around tabernacle with Moses and Aaron. These four divisions had standards which are repesented by the four faces of the beasts and thus the beasts represent the twleve tribes in their four divisions. The thirteenth tribe under David was further divided into 24 divisions for service in God's house. They are represented by the 24 elders who ALONE ARE CROWNED.

    The twelve tribes and their divisions represent the elect who do not serve in "the house of God" and they are the ones who will live outside the New Jerusalem WHO ARE NOT CROWNED and be ruled over by the thirteenth tribe which represent all the elect who served in 'the house of God" in both testaments (Old Testament faithful - 12 tribes of Israel; New Testament = 12 apostles) or the 12 gates in the New Jerusalem and the twelve foundations of the city The city is the dwelling place of the wife of Jehovah - the faithful among Israel and the bride of Christ - the faithful WHO ALONE ARE PICTURED AS CROWNED.

    The "nations of the saved" are pictured by the four beasts who dwell outside the city on the new earth, and the crowned twenty four elders represent the faithful in the Old and NT who served in the House of God are the crowned who rule over the new earth and its nations and dwell in the city.

    This is why during the NT period only baptized believing church members who are overcomers are promised to reign over the nations in Revelation 2-3 and dwell in the New Jerusalem. The seven churches are representative of the institutional "house of God" - the churches of Christ. These letters are about "works" and overcoming has nothing to do with salvation as Christ knows already the truly saved among them ("he that hath an ear to hear") and it is they who are being encouraged to overcome.

    There is my answer! If you don't agree, open a new thread and address it, but this thread has to do with the Great Commission, which NONE OF YOU have dared address yet.
     
    #48 The Biblicist, Nov 27, 2016
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  9. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    well, you sure were inferring no saved people were there either!


    I have answered this below. If you don't like my answer then open up another thread and deal with it, but let's not overthrow this thread which NO ONE YET HAS DARED TO DIRECTLY DEAL WITH.



    Do you always just make up things as you go? You have no evidence for what you are saying here, you just make a wild assertion. Ephesians 2:20 and 1 Cor. 12:28 deal directly with the church. BTW there is no baptism in the Spirit until Pentecost either, so both the "foundation" and the baptism in the Spirit which are essential to your church salvation theory (Roman Catholic church salvation doctrine for its origin) all are NT in origin thus totally excluding OT saints. You may not like it, but those are the facts and you can make empty unsubstantiated denials all day long and it changes nothing.
     
  10. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    First, Mystery Babylon is not a nation or a country. It rides on the back of what symbolizes governments or nations. It is characterized by Rome just as the New Jerusalem characterizes the bride. Two contrasting women and cities and both are symbolic of religious institutions - false Christianized worldy institutions (Harlot and her daughters) and the true Christian institution - the church. Those in Revelation 18:4 are OUTSIDE THE CHURCH INSTITUTION. It commits fornication with the "kings" of the earth or the act of state church union. It is false institutionalized religion and yes, all saints in that communion are committing fornication or unfaithfulness to Christ and that is why he commands them to come out of her. There are more saints in her between the first century and the coming of Christ than in the bride. In fact, Jesus asks a rhetorical question that implies how unfaithful God's people will be when he comes again by asking "shall I find faith when I come?" (Lk.18:8). The vast majority of saints are in her and her daughters today. The parable of the tares demonstrates the vast majority of the professing kingdom are "tares" or lost people. The four soils gives us 3 out of 4 professors are lost in the professing kingdom of God. Among the one soil that alone is called "good" there is a diversity of saved people and most of them will be found deceived by the tares and within Babylonian false Christianized religion. So as Paul sees the end times he describes it waxing worse and worse with regard to those DECEIVING and those BEING DECEIVED.
     
    #50 The Biblicist, Nov 27, 2016
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  11. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Irrational answers. If the nations are "in the city" then why do their kings bring THEIR glory "into" it if they are not outside of it? By the way, if everyone inside are kings then who is "their" glory? The only "nations" in this text are "saved" not "lost" as you state later.



    Now really?!? More absolute nonsense! The time frame is a "new heaven and new earth" (Rev. 21:1-2) AFTER the great white throne judgement and all lost cast into gehenna. And you think lost people populate the "NEW" earth??????

    There is more outside the city than the NEW earth. Gehenna is also outside the city and outside the new earth.

    And so if everyone are "kings" then who in the world are they ruling over? The lost are in the lake of fire (Rev. 20). The nations on the new earth are not lost but are explicitly called "SAVED." More evidence your UIC does not fit scripture.

    I don't think you ever really left it.
     
  12. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Your understanding is so desperately earthbound. You cannot conceive of a king who is not lording it over someone. It seems as if your idea of heaven for 'Biblicist' is bossing around Presbyterians for all eternity. If I were a Presbyterian, if think I might prefer hell.
    The kings are Christians- all Christians. I gave you ten texts to support this understanding, and you did not engage with any of them. The glory they bring into the city is that which Christ has given them. "And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one" (John 17:22). Their glory cannot be in the city unless they are also.
    I did not say any different. In most of the Bible, especially the OT, the 'nations' are in rebellion against God (eg. Psalm 2:1), but here in Revelation the nations are saved.
    I am just quoting Scripture at you, not that you take any notice. Read Revelation 21:27 and Revelation 22:15. Christians are in the city; the lost are out. There is no mention of saved people outside the city except in your imagination.
    This is part of your wretchedly earthbound eschatology. "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those who are great exercise authority over them. Yet it shall not be so among you!" (Matt. 20:25-26). If that is so on the earth, how much more in heaven. The crowns that Christians shall wear in the new Jerusalem will not be diademoi, crowns of authority, but stephanoi (Revelation 2:10 etc.), crowns of victory. We shall be kings in that we shall sit in the presence of the King of kings. If we get to lord it over anyone, it will be angels (1 Corinthians 6:3).
     
  13. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    You just spiritualize everything away that does not fit your church salvation theory. He did not identify them as "the bride" but as "nations of the saved." He did not say they were inside Jerusalem nor did he say THEY brought their own glory into the city but rather it is the kings who brought their glory into the city. Any sane reading of the text defies your explanation as the nations and the kings are not the same people and yet both are saved. So you reponse is simply nonsense. You make the kings and the nations one and the same and yet anyone can see that Revelation 21:24-25 denies they are the same. I gave an explanation of the differences in post#48.

    How about attempting to deal with the OP? Or can you?
     
  14. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Your wretched ecclesiology perverts the gospel of Jesus Christ and defends those who purposely and intentionally pervert the gospel of Jesus Christ.

    Presbyterianism and all paedobaptists pervert the gospel of Christ by their mode and subject of baptism. The purpose of a symbol is to provide an explicit and exact VISIBLE FORM that conveys an intended truth. If one perverts the explicit and exact visible form they pervert the intended truth.

    Charging me with breaking fellowship with the brethren over an external ordinance is as senseless as charging God with breaking fellowship with those he put to death in the Corinthian assembly for failing to discern the SYMBOLISM of the Lord's Supper as that was their very crime. And Paul rightly concluding what they were observing was not what they claimed (1 Cor. 11:20).

    Charging me with dividing the brethren by refusing to recognize a COUNTERFEIT institution that calls itself the "church of Christ" is like charging the church at Thessalonica for excluding a "brother" for characteristic disobedience of Apostolic faith and order (that which is handed down to the churches by the apostles from Christ). And please don't give us that lame response that we are disfellowshipping any INDIVIDUAL brother by refusing to recognize their ordinances or their institution as New Testament as you cannot have "church" fellowship unless it is a "church" by NEW TESTAMENT DEFINITION not by Martin's definition or their definition.

    Paedobaptism preaches "another gospel" by its perversion of both the mode and subject of baptism. And please don't respond with the garbage that all who preach another gospel must be lost as the churches of Galatia expose that false idea.

    The very existence of a paedbaptist congregation as a professed church of Christ perverts the gospel of Jesus Christ by its very constitutency as it is PURPOSELY designed to include unregenerates as its primary membership thus reducing the metaphoric "body of Christ" to a body of unregnerates.

    Moreover, you cannot find such a congregational body of unbaptized believers in scripture called a church by God's Word.

    Moreover, you cannot find such a congregational body of comprised primarily by unregenerate infant membeship in scripture called a church by God's Word.

    Moreover, both the precepts and examples in God's word forbid such a thing to be called "the church of Christ" or "the church of God" or a NT church.

    Finally, true Christians found within the harlot (Rev. 18:4) are not found within either the metaphor of a "chaste virgin" (2 Cor. 11;2) now or in the metaphorical bride to come (Rev. 19:6-8) but will be found OUTSIDE the city upon the NEW earth is such great numbers they are called "NATIONS" of the "saved" as opposed to the fewer who comprise a "city" who in fact do rule over the nations just as a capital city now rules over a nation singular much less "nations" plural. The Christians that dwell outside on the New earth are vastly more in number ("nations") compared to those who will dwell inside the city. The idiotic interpretation you have presented that the "nations" and the "kings" are one in the same is easily debunked by the very language of the text as the text distinguishes between the two by calling some "kings" and others "nations" by the nations not bringing their own gloryin "into" the city but it being brought in by "their" kings. You must mishandle, pervert and spiritualize away the word of God when there is no contextual foundation for doing that.

    BTW Jesus adopted this "bossing around" others in the world to come in the parable of the pounds (5 cities, 10 cities etc.). Jesus adopted this in the promise to the overcomers to "rule over the nations" in the age to come. What this consists of we don't exactly know, but we do know it is a form of rule over others in the new world.
     
    #54 The Biblicist, Nov 28, 2016
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  15. McCree79

    McCree79 Well-Known Member
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    Yes, that is why i used the word institution. Not nation. You are twisting what i say to make an argument that doesnt exist.

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  16. McCree79

    McCree79 Well-Known Member
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    Again, you have changed what i am saying to argue against a point not made. I said it has nothing to do with contents of New Jerusalem. You then accuse me of lying and change the term to church. You are assuming that only the church is New Jerusalem. I am saying all the redeemed are. We use the term(New Jerusalem) in different ways. When i say those verse dont esthablish the contents of new Jerusalem i am refering to a New Jerusalem made up of all God's elect, not just the church age era.


    Anyway, I have not advance the debate, what you call derailing, just cleared up apparently misunderstanding of what I said. I will start a new thread on the "contents of New Jerusalem", in the next day or two....if someone else hasn't done it already. See ya there brother.
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  17. McCree79

    McCree79 Well-Known Member
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    One more...
    I have said repeatedly that all the saved from history are in New Jerusalem. There is no way to say I am inferring that no saved are present in New Jerusalem.

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  18. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Oh come now Steve.....This is Biblicist interpretation of scripture! So what, he isnt saying Presbyterian's are all bound for hell. Calm down.:Whistling
     
  19. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Your issue is with God's Word as it is the Holy Spirit through John that distinguishes "kings" from "nations" and has the kings rather than the nations bringing the honor of the nations "into" the city as the preposition "into" makes no sense unless one is OUTSIDE. The parable of the pounds teaches there will be rulers over cities in the age to come, thuse on this new earth among the "nations of the saved" will be cities. The promise of Christ to baptized believing church members who overcome ("he that hath ears to hear" is a saved person, and it is to saved baptized believers the promises are made) will rule over nations in the age to come.

    The time is explicitly defined as occurring AFTER the CREATION of a new heaven and earth NOT NOW, NOT BEFORE -Rev. 22:1-2

    The nations are further distinguished from those dwelling in the city in Revelation 22;3 where they have right not to 'eat" as do overcoming church members of the tree, but they have right to the "leaves" for their healing and the symbolism is clear.

    In the Garden of Eden when Adam and Eve were obedient they dwelt IN the paradise of God located on a newly created earth. They were SAFE. However, when they sinned, they sought to cover the shame of their disobedience by LEAVES and then were cast OUTSIDE that paradise to dwell. Nevertheless they found salvation OUTSIDE and thus dwelt OUTSIDE as "saved" persons.

    Likewise, in the new heaven and earth. There are those who have remained faithful to the way of SERVICE while on earth as they served INSIDE the way designated way of service. Prior to the cross that was the way of the house of God, after the cross it was still through the way of the "house of God" (1 Tim. 3:15) and both Old and New Testament saints who remained faithful to God's way of service will be INSIDE the New Jerusalem in the age to come as a REWARD. Those saints in the Old Testament who were not faithful in their SERVICE to God will abide OUTSIDE on the new earth as the "saved" among the "nations." Their UNFAITHFULNESS can be described in the exact same terms as the disobedience of the lost as their are not dual expressions for disobedience simply because a person is saved but the same expressions used for the disobedience of lost persons. The seraphonecian woman who had great faith was nevertheless called a "dog" or one OUTSIDE the nation of Israel and its temple service. Lot would be described in terms of unfaithfulness as the last mention of him was as a drunkard and incest with his daughters but nevertheless he was saved according to Peter's record 2000 years after his death. Solomon died as a fornicator with 300 concubines and an adultery with 700 wives. Jacob was an habitual liar, etc., etc. So OUTSIDE the city dwell both saved and lost people whose disobedience is characterized in the same language except the saved dwell outside on the NEW EARTH while the lost dwell outside in GEHENNA.
     
  20. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    With all due respect, that is not what you said. I presented Ephesiand 2:20 and 1 Cor. 12:28 as iron clad proof that Old Testament saints are not included in the church and the church is the metaphorical bride of Christ which dwells in the city. You said that my use of these texts for the purpose I employed them (to prove not all saints are in the church/bride) was a misuse of those texts. I challenged your accusation. Moreover, I proved that the baptism in the Spirit could not be applied to saints prior to Pentecost which again repudiates the Universal invisible church theory that includes all the elect as it is the baptism in the Spirit that this theory employs to remove a person from being in the spiritual condemned state of "in Adam" to be "in Christ" which again is interpreted by your theory and all of its theologions who defend and define it to be the only way "in Christ" defined by them as the mystical body of Christ. Your theory simply falls to pieces and it is plain that not all saint are in your kind of church salvation theory.




    I never called you a liar. However, if that is how you wish to interpret it, then so be it. However, your theory is inconsistent. Even if you limit your definition of "church" to the church age saints you are then guilty of teaching another gospel and another salvation different than prior to Pentecost. Let me ask you a simple question to prove my point? Is there any kind of salvation for anyone at any time "OUTSIDE OF CHRIST"???? The UIC position is that "in Christ" refers to being placed in the mystical body of Christ as the position of all blessing of salvation and that none outside this position are saved - thus church salvation. Not according to the Pre-Pentecost teaching of Christ (Mt. 7;13-14; Jn. 14:6)! Not according to the Post-Pentecost teaching of the apostles (Acts 4:12; 10:43; 26:22-23; Heb. 4:2; etc.) So now you have only complicated your problem.



    No, I am not! God has a designated way of SERVICE for the elect in all ages and it is characterized as "the house of God" (Deut. 12) from which Cain was the first to go out from the presence of God - meaning the designated place of worship. Old Testament saints, such as Abel and his parents and Moses, etc. will be in the New Jerusalem as symbolized by the Old Testament 12 tribes of Israel when the "house of God" was fully revealed in the Old Testament. New Testament saints that "forsake not the assembly AS THE MANNER OF SOME IS" from the New Testament "house of God" (1 Tim.3:15) will also be in the New Jerusalem as symbolized by the 12 apostle foundation. All other saints who SERVED their OWN WAY will dwell OUTSIDE on the new earth among the "nations of the saved."

    Remember, I am talking about SERVICE not salvation.
     
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