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Featured One of the Biggest perplexities

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Piper, Dec 14, 2023.

  1. Piper

    Piper Active Member
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    One of the biggest perplexities in the Bible is that God is absolutely Sovereign over all things and yet disapproves of many.

    The greatest example.
    Acts 4:27, 28
    "for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place."

    God planned for the death of Jesus to take place. It necessarily included sin. It was sinful for men to whip Jesus, to mock him, to kill him. Yet, God willed that it happen.

    Isaiah 53:10 "Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him;
    he has put him to grief"

    So, it is possible that God plan and it is in his eternal sovereign will that Jesus be killed, and sin be perpetrated on Jesus, and yet not be a sinner himself.

    God works all things, everything, nothing excepted, according to his will.
    Ephesian 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

    I could give many more passages. But the truth is that God can sovereignly determine that sin happen without becoming a sinner.
     
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  2. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Isaiah 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

    8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

    9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

    10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:

    11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.


    Brother Glen:)
     
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  3. Piper

    Piper Active Member
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    I am guessing that you posted this to make the point that there are some things that we find extremely hard to understand, and God does things in ways that are so much higher than ours that it will take the first 50,000 years of eternity to understand.

    Or did you have another thought in mind with posting this passage?
     
  4. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    No just that God is Sovereign in everything he does... Sometimes he intervenes and sometimes he allows and as far as understanding it all... We will only know that, when we get there... Brother Glen:)
     
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  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    God's sovereignty is defined as He either causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass. He chose not to predestine all things but to allow individuals to make autonomous choices that can alter the outcome of their lives.

    God can arrange circumstances that allow individuals to sin, without predestining that sin.
     
  6. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

    14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.


    Brother Glen:)
     
  7. Piper

    Piper Active Member
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    I agree with everything except the word autonomous. And I know that you have not come to that conclusion quickly, so you know all the arguments for and against Autonomous free will, so I won't start that here. I think you and I agree on far more than we disagree.
     
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  8. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    BINGO! God did not intervene in The Serpent's bruising of His Son. He foreknew it and allowed it to happen.
     
  9. Piper

    Piper Active Member
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    Isaiah 53:10

    Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him;
     
  10. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Thanks for supporting the biblical view presented in Post #5.
     
  11. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    I heard a quote from Joni Eareckson Tada today.

    "God permits what he hates to accomplish what he loves."
     
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  12. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Matthew 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

    54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?


    Brother Glen:)
     
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  13. MrW

    MrW Well-Known Member

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    He did not have to predestine sin to take place. All he had to do was remove the restraint. He knew what would happen if He did not restrain men from evil.

    It absolutely was His intent that Christ be crucified, but He did not have to force it to happen. He just had to turn men loose, because He knew the devil would push them to crucify Christ, because the devil thought that would give him the victory, not knowing it would actually be God‘s greatest victory.
     
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  14. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Fine article:
    Pillars of Orthodoxy, or Defenders of the Faith
    Ben M. Bogard, editor, 1900

    This is 'the scriptures' portion of it.
    Chapter V
    The Doctrine of Divine Decrees

    By James P. Boyce

    Sustained by the Scriptures. This doctrine is not only a reasonable doctrine, it has also the clear support of the Scriptures. This scriptural authority for the doctrine will appear from the following statements and references, gathered with slight modifications from Hodge's "Outlines," pp. 205-213:

    (1)
    God's decrees are eternal: Acts 15:18; Ephesians 1:4; 3:11; 1 Peter 1:20; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 2 Timothy 1:19; 1 Corinthians 2:7.

    (2)
    They are immutable: Psalm. 33:11; Isaiah 46:9.

    (3)
    They comprehend all events.

    a
    . The Scriptures assert this of the whole system in general embraced in the divine decrees: Daniel 4:34, 35; Acts 17:26; Ephesians 1:11.

    b
    . They affirm the same of fortuitous events: Proverbs 16:33; Matthew 10:29, 30.

    c
    . Also of the free actions of men; Ephesians 2:10, 11; Philippians 2:3.

    d
    . Even the wicked actions of men : Acts 2:23; 4:27, 28; 13:29; 1 Peter 2:8; Jude 4; Revelation 17:17. As to the history of Joseph, compare Genesis 37:28 with Genesis 45:7, 8 and Genesis 50:20. See also Psalm 17:13, 14; Isa. 10:5, 15.

    (4)
    The decrees of God are not conditional: Psalm 33:11; Proverbs 19:21; Isaiah 14:24, 27; 46:10; Romans 9:11.

    (5)
    They are sovereign: Isaiah 40:13, 14; Daniel 4:35; Matthew 11:25, 26; Romans 9:11, 15-18; Ephesians 1:5, 11.

    (6)
    They include the means : Ephesians 1:4; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:2.

    (7)
    They determine the free actions of men: Acts 4:27, 28; Ephesians 2:10.

    (8)
    God himself works in his people that faith and obedience which are called the conditions of salvation: Ephesians 2:8; Philippians 2:13; 2 Timothy 2:25.

    (9)
    The decree renders the event certain: Matthew 16:21; Luke 18:31-33; 24:46; Acts 2:23; 13:29; 1 Corinthians 11:19.

    (10)
    While God has decreed the free acts of men, the actors have been none the less responsible: Genesis 50:20; Acts 2:23; 3:18; 4:27, 28.
     
  15. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Isn’t that fantastic! He is the potter and we are the clay. :Wink
     
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  16. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    That’s assigning emotions to the creator!
     
  17. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    That’s your supposition right… or do you consider it a fact?
     
  18. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    "God permits what he hates to accomplish what he loves."

    Does God hate sin? Does the Bible tell us this? Does God love righteousness? Does the Bible tell us this?

    Do you have a God that is empty of emotion, EWF?
     
  19. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    I really don’t care if he is devoid or not, it’s nothing I can control… so are you expert in understanding the creator motives now as well? Boy you Calvinists are surely the experts on all things “G-d” by your own assessment’s. Me, I like to have definitives when I make my moves… in that way I’m always confident of my thoughts & actions so I don’t hesitate otherwise I would have been destroyed long ago.
     
    #19 Earth Wind and Fire, Dec 16, 2023
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2023
  20. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    EWF, you made a silly comment. You should own it.
     
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