Predestinated = OSAS

steaver,


Hi! I'm sorry, I didnt know you had asked me anything. I usually am really busy doing things and so I dont have time to follow up on much of anything here.

But I injured my foot and am confined to lie here in bed at least for awhile so I can answer. I hate trying to use this laptop computer though, it just kinda inserts words wherever it wants to in the paragraphs I write.

But anyway I went and looked through the pages on this topic I cant find the original question you asked me, could you please either repeat the question or else tell me which page its on?

Ok I gotta ask... is your name stever... as in your name is Steve and your last name begins with an R ?? Or is your name actually "steaver" as in Leave it to Beaver or in your case Leave it to Steaver?

Claudia

 

Please forgive my goofiness, for I am on a bunch of different medications right now and its making me delerious. Of course its probably hard to tell the difference between now and how I act normally.

 

steaver,

I was reading through some of the stuff on here and you said I like to propagandize... what do you mean by that? I really want to know because I didnt think I was that good at anything LOL!

then I see that Bob said you had a Daffy Duck response.

(trying to figure out what that might mean)...


actually stever, in some ways I do believe that I was predestined to do certain things... because when I was about 14 years old I actually heard God telling me "I have chosen you, and everyone will be against you"... and then some really really huge stuff happened to me in my church and all along the way before things would happen, I would have dreams about the events... even to the point of actually seeing one of the people in my dream that would be involved in the whole thing, before I even met him. The thing affected the entire denomination and the guy the Conference hired to handle the whole thing told me it was the biggest mess he had ever seen in the church.

I dont know about the idea of being "predestined" to be saved though.

I kinda view it as that yes, God already knows who is going to be saved, but its not like we can rest secure and imagine ourselves to be saved and not even care what we do or how we act anymore because of it.

I believe everybody has their own "station" to fill or "part to play" in this drama called "life". I believe in the Providence of God.

Claudia

 

Steve,

I remember a verse about being predestined to be conformed to His image


Rom:8:29: For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Rom:12:2: And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.


but if thats the case there is no way in the world I would think that would apply to a christian who didnt believe that you have to keep God's Law, since being conformed to the image of Jesus would most certainly include that.

claudia

 

Steaver,

Okay now, come on, Im waiting. You went here and even to other threads on the forum trying to embarrass me for not answering you (which works pretty well, actually)

so come on... convince me about Predestination!

This will probably be your only chance where I am actually open to suggestions, since Im on drugs.

Seriously though, I really would like to understand this topic and I am actually open to it... and if you can convince me of it I will accept it.

Claudia

 

except tomorrow I have to go to the doctor's though... so I wont be able to answer at least most of the day..

 

steaver,

please forgive me for acting crazy. havent had but about 4 hours sleep for about 2 weeks and Im going through some severe emotional trauma lately. I will try to get ahold of myself and act right.

claudia

 

Judas Iscariot was predestined from the foundation of the world to betray Jesus Christ. Any other view of this is completely against scripture.

 

Dustin,

john the baptist was predestined too

 

Steve,


I just glanced over your first post and will read it more later.


so far I think of he place where it says many are called but few are chosen, so I will have to look at that some more.

I also think of the Jews who kept claiming they were the children of Abraham but then Jesus said to them they would do the works of Abraham if they truly were the children of Abe.

After just a glance so far I think of how every christian who read that might think they were one of the predestined ones, and we know that cannot be true because Jesus Himself said there wouold come a time when christians the foolish virgins, would say to Him they had done this and that but Jesus says depart from Me I never knew you. so everyone cant be the predestined.

I have to come back and read some more and think more about it though..


I think I will just call you Steve.

claudia

 

</font>[/QUOTE]Steaver "insists" that the WE here can only refer to the SAVEd.

"IF WE endure"

"IF WE DENY" - HE WILL deny US!!

"IF we are faithless"

"SOLEMNLY CHARGE THEM with these words"!!!

But Steaver's doctrine says "WE CAN NOT DENY Him and HE CAN NOT deny us" - since WE are only the SAVED and WE CAN never do such a thing. No need to solemnly charge US with such impossible things. It would like charging us NOT to become elephants at 6 pm on Thursdays. It is IMPOSSIBLE! Such a charge is pointless!"

How "instructive for the reader"

 

Steve,

Ok I had a little time to think about it and JUSTIFIED and its correct meaning would hold the key for us to know who would be the ones talked about in those verses about predestination…

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Jms:2:24: Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Jms:2:21: Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Jms:2:25: Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

"The chief among the publicans," Zacchaeus, was a Jew, and detested by his countrymen. His rank and wealth were the reward of a calling they abhorred, and which was regarded as another name for injustice and extortion. Yet the wealthy customs officer was not altogether the hardened man of the world that he seemed. Beneath the appearance of worldliness and pride was a heart susceptible to divine influences. Zacchaeus had heard of Jesus. The report of One who had borne Himself with kindness and courtesy toward the proscribed classes had spread far and wide. In this chief of the publicans was awakened a longing for a better life. Only a few miles from Jericho, John the Baptist had preached at the Jordan, and Zacchaeus had heard of the call to repentance. The instruction to the publicans, "Exact no more than that which is appointed you" (Luke 3:13), though outwardly disregarded, had impressed his mind. He knew the Scriptures, and was convicted that his practice was wrong. Now, hearing the words reported to have come from the Great Teacher, he felt that he was a sinner in the sight of God. Yet what he had heard of Jesus kindled hope in his heart. Repentance, reformation of life, was possible, even to him; was not one of the new Teacher's most trusted disciples a publican? Zacchaeus began at once to follow the conviction that had taken hold upon him, and to make restitution to those whom he had wronged.

Already he had begun thus to retrace his steps, when the news sounded through Jericho that Jesus was entering the town. Zacchaeus determined to see Him. He was beginning to realize how bitter are the fruits of sin, and how difficult the path of him who tries to return from a course of wrong. To be misunderstood, to be met with suspicion and distrust in the effort to correct his errors, was hard to bear. The chief publican longed to look upon the face of Him whose words had brought hope to his heart.

Above the clamor of priests and rabbis and the shouts of welcome from the multitude, that unuttered desire of the chief publican spoke to the heart of Jesus. Suddenly, just beneath the fig tree, a group halts, the company before and behind come to a standstill, and One looks upward whose glance seems to read the soul. Almost doubting his senses, the man in the tree hears the words, "Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for today I must abide at thy house."

The multitude give way, and Zacchaeus, walking as in a dream, leads the way toward his own home. But the rabbis look on with scowling faces, and murmur in discontent and scorn, "that He was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner."
Zacchaeus had been overwhelmed, amazed, and silenced at the love and condescension of Christ in stooping to him, so unworthy. Now love and loyalty to his new-found Master unseal his lips. He will make public his confession and his repentance.

In the presence of the multitude, "Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken anything from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.


"And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham."

 

Steve,

you see, when Jesus told the publican that he went down to his house justified, whereas the Pharisee did not...

the publican was thoroughly humbled whereas the Pharisee was not... just as Zacchaeus was humbled. true humility leads not only to confession and a realization that God alone can save you, BUT ALSO to a surrenderig of the being, the heart to God in every way.

that is the foundation, the key.
and yes, I would say if you were TRULY justified then you can place yourself among those talked about in the predestination passages.

Claudia

 

you see, many are called but few are chosen... and those called, chosen and justified, truly justified, would be the entire foundation of those who go on to be sanctified and glorified, etc.

 

The point remains.

So "again" of the SAVED you say --
WE CAN NOT DENY Him and HE CAN NOT deny us" - since WE are only the SAVED and WE CAN never do such a thing. No need to solemnly charge US with such impossible things. It would like charging us NOT to become elephants at 6 pm on Thursdays. It is IMPOSSIBLE! Such a charge is pointless!"


The point remains.

 

Notice that the "IF WE DENY HIM" part is the part Steaver refuses to quote - but then asserts that WE THE SAVED -- if we are truly truly really really "the saved" WILL NOT deny Him and it is pointless to suppose that we will!

Just as the argument above shows!!