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Propitiation

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
I think the difference is the same as what occurs in discussions in the scope of atonement. In both cases, if all you are saying is that propitiation is available to anyone in the whole world who might come to Christ then I agree. But I don't think it requires that we claim then that it is actually universal. The reason being, as the Calvinist would say, is that the terms mean an actual real thing taking place and like you mentioned, can be used even as a verb.

It would be like if I said "I have enough red paint that I can paint every single person in the whole world red". So I could universally offer to do so and it be a true offer. But the fact still is that if I paint you red - you are truly and literally painted red. I believe that a universal use of propitiation in 1 John would be like saying "he painted everyone red" or "propitiates God for everyone" which has to mean that actual propitiation took place for everyone - which is not true. Propitiation, atonement, and even my silly being painted red, is an obvious real action that either is, or isn't. If it is, you are saved (or painted red), if not, it could still be that the "offer" stands and is a real offer - but the difference, and I hope you can see it, is propitiation or atonement cannot be kept in buckets and exist as such like paint. There is where the illustration breaks down and it's why I think using those words like you are is slightly off. You mentioned the noun/verb use of propitiation. And you are using propitiation as if it was in a bucket, like my red paint. The difference is that my bucket of paint really is a "thing" and if I paint someone that becomes the true meaning of what occurs - the fact that the verb and noun "paint" is the same English word is incidental. "Propitiation" or "atonement" only have significance or meaning as to what they do and have no meaning as a substance that could be kept because their only meaning is as they are being applied or done. That is what a Calvinist is worried about if you say atonement or propitiation is universal. To him, he sees it as if you were saying universally, everyone gets painted red, when what you mean is that everyone is being offered a red paint job, and there is plenty of red paint in a bucket, to go around. Obviously, if everyone gets painted red they are truly painted, not potentially painted or offered to be painted. If everyone's sins are atoned for, or if God is propitiated towards everyone - they are saved, not potentially saved. And while that does make atonement or propitiation particular for those saved - it does not mean that the "offer" is not there for everyone.

Dave it is a noun in three of those verses and you want it to be a verb. You are holding to your calvinism rather that the actual word of God.

Christ is the propitiation [noun] that the Father sent. He is the propitiation [the means of appeasing] for the whole world unless you think there is some other way that God can be appeased.

The propitiation is for the whole world, salvation through is only for those that have freely trusted in the risen Christ.

You are confusing propitiation and salvation.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Once again you are adding words to the sacred text. The word 'means' does not appear, and nor does 'only.' The Lord Jesus is not the 'means of appeasing God,' He is the propitiation (yes, it's a noun) of our sins. As I wrote before, I fully agree that Christ is the only way for anyone to be saved. But that is not what the text is saying.

And once again you are ignoring the word of God.

Since you object to the words "means" & "only"do you Calvinist's think there is another means of our salvation other than Christ? Is He not the only way?

Since you deny that Christ is the means of appeasing God then I have to wonder why you think the Father sent Him and what you think John was actually saying?

You do realize, at least I hope you do, that the word propitiation can be both a noun and a verb. In these three verses Rom_3:25, 1Jn_2:2 & 1Jn_4:10 it is in the noun form and is telling us what Christ is. He is the means of appeasing God.

In Heb_2:17 it is in the verb form and that is telling us what Christ did.

The first three verses do not support your view. You continue to make the same error. John is not saying the whole world is appeased but rather that Christ is the only means by which the whole world can be appeased.

Based on the evidence from John's writings and the rest of scripture one can correctly conclude that Christ truly is the propitiation, the atoning sacrifice, for all, both believers and unbelievers, providing reconciliation for all, effective by faith.

Martin you keep saying no but you have yet to provide any support for your position.
 
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JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Well, you yourself are making God out to be a liar because you have said that you believe Isaiah 53:10. 'Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise [or 'crush'] Him; He has put Him to grief.' So you believe that God was pleased to bruise or crush the Lord Jesus and to put Him to grief.
Do I believe God was pleased to bruise Jesus OR do I believe the Lord desired to crush Him, causing Him grief?

Obviously I believe the latter (God's words rather than yours). It pleased God to bruise Him. It was God's will, God's predetermined plan.

You forget that Scripture interprets Scripture. The word חָפֵ֤ץ means "pleased", "delighted", "contented", "willed".

What does the Bible say? Does God take pleasure in such things? No. But the Bible does say it was God's will and His predetermined plan (which is evident in Isaiah 53:10 by the 2nd part of the verse).


You have a very bad habit of looking through possible definitions to find one that fits your theories rather than the passage, making your philosophy rather than Scripture interpret Scripture.


But to answer your question - yes, I absolutely agree with Isaiah 53:10. I disagree with your rearranging of words and the philosophy you read into the passage.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
@Ben1445

What verse are you thinking of that states God cannot forgive sins - that God must punish sins on somebody (whether the sinner or Christ)?

What verse are you thinking of that states what Jesus suffered was God's wrath?


I ask because you claimed to believe God's word rather than some theological system, but it seems that what you believe is the theological system as what you are saying is very different from "what is written".
 

DaveXR650

Well-Known Member
The propitiation is for the whole world, salvation through is only for those that have freely trusted in the risen Christ.

You are confusing propitiation and salvation.
Maybe I am but once again, if you want precise understanding, I think the Calvinists may have this one right. I think you are confused in the meaning of propitiation in that you miss the fact that in a sense, God, in his own mind, is already filled with love towards us or else the plan of having Jesus die to save us would never have been started. But that is not Biblical "propitiation" which, once again, involves a judicial or appeasing sacrifice brought in the form of Christ appearing with his own blood, having been slain on our behalf and to be precise, in our place.

And, in the act of Christ doing this he is functioning as our advocate. The idea of Christ functioning in this way for the general population does not fit the context of 1John. Those who sin are under the wrath of God, he is not propitiated toward them, he has not forgiven them - until they come by faith. As humans living in time, we will never fully comprehend how an atoning sacrifice and the resulting propitiation of God can be done once, in time, and yet be for everyone, everywhere, who believes. So I don't mean to knock your view of this which agrees with the Arminian and free will Baptist view as there really is no way to adequately explain it.

This is why Calvinists, who, concerned that the truth that if your sins are atoned for then you are saved, and since this was done once in time, might cause people to be discouraged if they hear that the atonement is particular - are careful to say "Christ has died. And now if you come you will be saved" rather than Christ has died for your sins, which, technically, if you don't come to him he has not.
 

Ben1445

Well-Known Member
That is a very superficial belief (it is historic Calvinism) that minimizes sin and divine justice.
Calvinist may appreciate it. It is not Calvinism.

Sins cannot be remedied by punishment.
Then what is the point of punishment. Punishment is the answer to sin. An answer is a remedy.

You mention Eve being punished for her sin by pain in childbirth. Do you believe that all women who have children are forgiven of their sins because they have pain in childbirth???
Punishment does not mean complete answer for sin. Jesus means complete answer for sin.

You have adopted Calvin's theory of Atonement. This is probably because the Methodist church
Because I’m a Methodist??? What does this have to do with anything?

was the largest and most influential denomination in the US early on (the second was the Presbyterians) and both adopted basic Calvinism when it comes to the Atonement. You were influenced and chose man over God.
What else do you know about me? What do you see in your crystal ball?

I did the same. I read PSA into those passages as well, adding to God's words.
I’m not reading into them. I actually believe that the words that they were translated into carry the meaning.

I know traditional Christianity makes no sense to you.
Thanks for the ad hominem. That adds nothing. What I really don’t know is what you are talking about.

When I was in your shoes I was also baffled at how strange early Christian beliefs were.
You don’t have any idea what my shoes are. You think I’m a Calvinist.

I can't help you there. I can only tell you that God's words really do make sense without adding to them or taking away from them. You have to do the work to correct your own understanding.
Well I certainly won’t be following you. You haven’t explained anything.
 

Ben1445

Well-Known Member
@Ben1445

What verse are you thinking of that states God cannot forgive sins - that God must punish sins on somebody (whether the sinner or Christ)?
What makes you think that I don’t believe in forgiveness? Quote me.

What verse are you thinking of that states what Jesus suffered was God's wrath?
Review the thread. I already answered that.

I ask because you claimed to believe God's word rather than some theological system, but it seems that what you believe is the theological system as what you are saying is very different from "what is written".
Read this statement to the guy in your mirror.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Maybe I am but once again, if you want precise understanding, I think the Calvinists may have this one right. I think you are confused in the meaning of propitiation in that you miss the fact that in a sense, God, in his own mind, is already filled with love towards us or else the plan of having Jesus die to save us would never have been started. But that is not Biblical "propitiation" which, once again, involves a judicial or appeasing sacrifice brought in the form of Christ appearing with his own blood, having been slain on our behalf and to be precise, in our place.

And, in the act of Christ doing this he is functioning as our advocate. The idea of Christ functioning in this way for the general population does not fit the context of 1John. Those who sin are under the wrath of God, he is not propitiated toward them, he has not forgiven them - until they come by faith. As humans living in time, we will never fully comprehend how an atoning sacrifice and the resulting propitiation of God can be done once, in time, and yet be for everyone, everywhere, who believes. So I don't mean to knock your view of this which agrees with the Arminian and free will Baptist view as there really is no way to adequately explain it.

This is why Calvinists, who, concerned that the truth that if your sins are atoned for then you are saved, and since this was done once in time, might cause people to be discouraged if they hear that the atonement is particular - are careful to say "Christ has died. And now if you come you will be saved" rather than Christ has died for your sins, which, technically, if you don't come to him he has not.


Dave you are confusing what Christ is, the means of appeasing God, with what Christ has done, has appeased God.

If John had wanted to say what you need him to have said then he would have used the verbal form of propitiation, ἱλάσκομαι G2433 , but he did not do that.

1Jn 2:2 is clear if you will just read the text without a preconceived idea built in as Calvinist's have done.

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is G2076 (G5748) [there is your verb] the propitiation G2434 [the means of appeasing] for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

God demands that the payment for sin be made once and for all. It is Christ Himself, therefore, who becomes {the propitiation} hilasmós G2434, the means which is acceptable to God to satisfy His righteousness or His justice.


You said that "in a sense" God is already filled with love but the bible is clear that He does love the world.
God so loved the world Jn 3:16 that He sent Christ so that the world through Him might be saved Jn 3:17. God sent the son to be the propitiation for the whole world.

Dave reread your post and note that you are using propitiation in the verbal form not the noun form as John has done.

John is telling us what Christ is and you are saying what Christ has done.

If John had used the verbal form of propitiation then you would have a case but he did not so you have too read your Calvinism into the text.

In your last paragraph you say that Christ only died for those that are saved. The bible disagrees with you on that.

Heb_2:9 should taste death for every man
1Jn_2:2 propitiation for the whole world
1Ti_2:5-6 gave Himself a ransom for all
1Ti_4:10 Savior of all men, especially of believers
Rom_5:6 Christ died for the ungodly
Rom_5:8 while we were still sinners, Christ died for us

Calvinism has misunderstood the word of God and missed the truths of God.
 

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
And once again you are ignoring the word of God.
One of us is, but I think you'll find it's you.
Since you object to the words "means" & "only"do you Calvinist's think there is another means of our salvation other than Christ? Is He not the only way?
Acts 4:11-12. "'This is the stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.' Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by with we must be saved.' Christ is not the 'means' of propitiation; He is our propitiation (noun) before God, who set Him forth as such (Romans 3:25). God did not set Him forth as a 'means of propitiation.'
Since you deny that Christ is the means of appeasing God then I have to wonder why you think the Father sent Him and what you think John was actually saying?
Wonder no more. John 6:38-39. "For I have not come down from heaven, not to do My own will [Phil. 2:5-11], but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day." Christ was sent to make propitiation (verb) for the vast crowd of sinners chosen by God for salvation before the world was (Eph. 1:4-5). So every one of the people in John 6:40 who looks to Christ and comes freely to Him - yes, by his own free will - will find when he gets to heaven that God set His love upon him in eternity, and has drawn him, gently, but firmly and irresistibly, to Himself (Jeremiah 31:3; Romans 8:28-30).


You do realize, at least I hope you do, that the word propitiation can be both a noun and a verb.
If I didn't know before, I do now because you have told me three times, but in fact the British education system is such that I learned quite early in life to distinguish a verb from a noun. In point of fact, 'propitiation' is always a noun. The verbal form is to 'propitiate' or to 'make propitiation.'
In these three verses Rom_3:25, 1Jn_2:2 & 1Jn_4:10 it is in the noun form and is telling us what Christ is. He is the means of appeasing God.
No, you are adding the the word of God. He is the propitiation for our sins, not the means of it.
The first three verses do not support your view. You continue to make the same error. John is not saying the whole world is appeased but rather that Christ is the only means by which the whole world can be appeased.
:rolleyes: No. Christ is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but for the whole world. If you are determined to add further to the word of God and say that He is the propitiation for all the people in the whole world - which the origial text does not say - then God is propitiated (verb) in respect of all the people in the whole world and they are all saved.
Based on the evidence from John's writings and the rest of scripture one can correctly conclude that Christ truly is the propitiation, the atoning sacrifice, for all, both believers and unbelievers, providing reconciliation for all, effective by faith.
John 10:26-28. "But you do not believe because you are not My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice and they follow Me, and I give them [i.e. His sheep] eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand."
Martin you keep saying no but you have yet to provide any support for your position.
As I have said, I have been very busy, but a church meeting has been postponed, so tomorrow morning I should have time (DV) to satisfy your curiosity.
 

DaveXR650

Well-Known Member
You said that "in a sense" God is already filled with love but the bible is clear that He does love the world.
God so loved the world Jn 3:16 that He sent Christ so that the world through Him might be saved Jn 3:17. God sent the son to be the propitiation for the whole world.
Yes. What I was saying was that which you apparently agree with in that even though God started out as loving us and thus set the plan for our redemption in motion before time began, he still required "propitiation", provided by his Son at a later time and place. So to use the word in a general sense as if God started out "propitious" towards us, should not be done where it gets confused with the actual act of propitiation found in scripture whereby Christ, with his own blood, accomplished this before God - resulting in the making right with God and thus sparing them from God's wrath.

I know what you are thinking and I have no problem with this at a practical level: Christ has died for your sins, God has removed all barriers for you to come to him, a pardon has been declared, and you are bid to come. I express it the same way if someone asks. Theologically though, it's a little iffy as to whether the atonement is actually applied to a person until they believe. The only important thing is that it be true that anyone who comes to Christ can come and be welcome by Christ to come, not whether the atonement and the propitiation to God is already done before they come. What right do we have to demand that, or anything, for that matter. We are bid to come. Calvinists believe that. All who do come have their sins removed and paid for and sufficient propitiation is made to God. It's just that Calvinists view propitiation and atonement as the actual pleasing of God and the actual handling of our sin - not as potential things that we demand theologically be fully available to us or else we won't come.
 
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