1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Rick Warren opposes fundamentalism

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by bjonson, Jan 14, 2006.

  1. webdog

    webdog Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,696
    Likes Received:
    2
    Amen! And you would have idiotic threads on here like...Jesus Christ opposes fundamentalism...or Jesus Christ preaches a different Gospel. I would guess about half who post on here would add Him to their lists of heretics like Warren, Graham, etc.
     
  2. Faith alone

    Faith alone New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2005
    Messages:
    727
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm not a big fan of Rick Warren either... but I think before we can judge him from that article we have to determine what he meant by "fundamentalism." I'm gonna guess that he was concerned not about the deity of Christ, virgin birth, etc., but about legalistic groups, such as the KJ-only movement or any group that takes its eyes of drawing people into the kingdom to over-emphasis minor doctrines.

    I mean, I suppose the Pharisees would have been considered "fundamentalists" of their day, right? ... Does Warren define what he means anywhere by "fundamentalism?"

    And I am certainly one who is very much interested in doctrine.

    It's just too hard to tell from that article.

    FA
     
  3. Martin

    Martin Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2005
    Messages:
    5,229
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Baptist
    ==That is true however I don't see how that relates to your earlier statement. How does the above prove that his financial giving is only for show off purposes? How?

    Martin.
     
  4. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2003
    Messages:
    15,546
    Likes Received:
    14
  5. eloidalmanutha

    eloidalmanutha New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2005
    Messages:
    589
    Likes Received:
    0
    ==That is true however I don't see how that relates to your earlier statement. How does the above prove that his financial giving is only for show off purposes? How?

    Martin.
    </font>[/QUOTE]He does not have the truth - he is preaching another gospel - he is into self and promoting his good works - he does not preach repentance - he is now using his PDL to promote his own agenda by selling it to corporations [leaving God out of it] - he is ecumenically driven by willing to unite all manner of godless religions and incorporate them as one . . . etc ad nauseum

    He does not show the fruit of the Spirit because he is a false teacher. He has corrupted the gospel and cast it as a pearl before swine. Does he love God? His works show the truth.
     
  6. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2003
    Messages:
    15,546
    Likes Received:
    14
    eloidalmanutha

    What part of the following do you not agree with?

    ABOUT GOD
    God is the Creator and Ruler of the universe. He has eternally existed in three persons: the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. These three are co-equal and are one God.
    Genesis 1:1,26,27; 3:22; Psalm 90:2; Matthew 28:19; 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Corinthians 13:14

    ABOUT MAN
    Man is made in the spiritual image of God, to be like Him in character. He is the supreme object of God´s creation. Although man has tremendous potential for good, he is marred by an attitude of disobedience toward God called "sin". This attitude separates man from God.
    Genesis 1:27; Psalm 8:3-6; Isaiah 53:6a; Romans 3:23; Isaiah 59:1,2

    ABOUT ETERNITY
    Man was created to exist forever. He will either exist eternally separated from God by sin, or in union with God through forgiveness and salvation. To be eternally separated from God is Hell. To be eternally in union with Him is eternal life. Heaven and Hell are places of eternal existence.
    John 3:16; John 2:25; John 5:11-13; Romans 6:23; Revelation 20:15; 1 John 5:11-12; Matthew 25:31-46

    ABOUT JESUS CHRIST
    Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He is co-equal with the Father. Jesus lived a sinless human life and offered Himself as the perfect sacrifice for the sins of all men by dying on a cross. He arose from the dead after three days to demonstrate His power over sin and death. He ascended to Heaven´s glory and will return again to earth to reign as King of kings, and Lord of lords.
    Matthew 1:22,23; Isaiah 9:6; John 1:1-5, 14:10-30; Hebrews 4:14,15; 1 Corinthians 15:3,4; Romans 1:3,4; Acts 1:9-11; 1 Timothy 6:14,15; Titus 2:13

    ABOUT SALVATION
    Salvation is a gift from God to man. Man can never make up for his sin by self-improvement or good works. Only by trusting in Jesus Christ as God´s offer of forgiveness can man be saved from sin´s penalty. Eternal life begins the moment one receives Jesus Christ into his life by faith.
    Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8,9; John 14:6, 1:12; Titus 3:5; Galatians 3:26; Romans 5:1

    ABOUT ETERNAL SECURITY
    Because God gives man eternal life through Jesus Christ, the believer is secure in salvation for eternity. Salvation is maintained by the grace and power of God, not by the self-effort of the Christian. It is the grace and keeping power of God that gives this security.
    John 10:29; 2 Timothy 1:12; Hebrews 7:25; 10:10,14; 1 Peter 1:3-5

    ABOUT THE HOLY SPIRIT
    The Holy Spirit is equal with the Father and the Son as God. He is present in the world to make men aware of their need for Jesus Christ. He also lives in every Christian from the moment of salvation. He provides the Christian with power for living, understanding of spiritual truth, and guidance in doing what is right. The Christian seeks to live under His control daily.
    2 Corinthians 3:17; John 16:7-13, 14:16,17; Acts 1:8; 1 Corinthians 2:12, 3:16; Ephesians 1:13; Galatians 5:25; Ephesians 5:1

    ABOUT THE BIBLE
    The Bible is God´s word to all men. It was written by human authors, under the supernatural guidance of the Holy Spirit. It is the supreme source of truth for Christian beliefs and living. Because it is inspired by God, it is truth without any mixture of error.
    2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:20,21; 2 Timothy 1:13; Psalm 119:105,160, 12:6; Proverbs 30:5)
     
  7. tinytim

    tinytim <img src =/tim2.jpg>

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2003
    Messages:
    11,250
    Likes Received:
    0
    Actually since you asked (I don't like to toot my own horn) YES I did talk to a teen that attended a lock-in but is mixed up into Wicca now. I witnessed to her.

    I will not reveal any other details as it is none of your business. God knows.

    Before you judge others get all the facts. Not just some you like from websites that have agendas.
     
  8. tinytim

    tinytim <img src =/tim2.jpg>

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2003
    Messages:
    11,250
    Likes Received:
    0
    spend a few hours here tinytim:

    http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/seeker.html
    </font>[/QUOTE]Thanks for the link.
    I found a link on there that took me to this article: http://www.challies.com/archives/001002.php#more

    In it the author says, "This is one of the primary shortcomings of the Purpose Driven model. The model gives too much leadership to the laypeople. While it is easy to make laypeople excited for a period of time, and while it is wonderful to have them involved in ministry, the primary ministry of the church belongs to the pastors and elders - those whom God has specially called and gifted for that purpose. Removing church hierarchy is not only dangerous, but is also unbiblical."

    I thought as Baptists we believed in the Priesthood of Believers.

    The primary ministry of the church does NOT belong to just the pastors and elders, it belongs to the Christians in the church.

    This just supports my theory that the people that don't like Rick Warren and PDL are scared that if their congregation starts doing God's work, they (the pastors) will lose some power they have over the people.

    Imagine a congregation doing ministry....
    It is so sad when this happens :rolleyes: :eek:
     
  9. Charles E.Smith

    Charles E.Smith New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2006
    Messages:
    40
    Likes Received:
    0
    " but I think before we can judge him from that article we have to determine what he meant by "fundamentalism." I'm gonna guess that he was concerned not about the deity of Christ, virgin birth, etc., but about legalistic groups, such as the KJ-only movement or any group that takes its eyes of drawing people into the kingdom to over-emphasis minor doctrines."

    Does anybody think that KJV Onlyers are on Warren's radar screen? I personally think he's talking about the SBC since they pulled out of the BWA.
     
  10. Gold Dragon

    Gold Dragon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2005
    Messages:
    5,143
    Likes Received:
    149
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    An fyi that Saddleback church is a member of the SBC.
     
  11. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2000
    Messages:
    17,527
    Likes Received:
    0
    An fyi that Saddleback church is a member of the SBC. </font>[/QUOTE]An FYI: Just because Saddleback is a member of the SBC does not mean that they support the SBC's correct decision to seperate from the BWA.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  12. Bro. James

    Bro. James Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2004
    Messages:
    3,130
    Likes Received:
    59
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Jesus is here today--and not in disguise. He said He would send another Comforter--and He did. The Holy Spirit has been indwelling the New Testament Asemblies ever since the Day of Pentecost. That is how Jesus is present--without Him we can do nothing.

    Omnipresence is an attribute of God--Jesus is God in the flesh. He also knows everything about us--even the secret thoughts and intents of the heart.

    It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God.

    Selah,

    Bro. James
     
  13. bjonson

    bjonson New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2001
    Messages:
    336
    Likes Received:
    1
    That is a doctrinal statement for Christians to read. It is not the message of the gospel to the unsaved. </font>[/QUOTE]Please tell me you're kidding.
     
  14. bjonson

    bjonson New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2001
    Messages:
    336
    Likes Received:
    1
    This is the problem with Warren. He has a good doctrinal statement but does he really guard what he claims to believe and does he hold to it consistently in his books and appearances?

    I'm sure you've seen the transcript from Larry King when he refuses to say that a Jewish person is unable to have a "purpose driven life"; or perhaps you've seen his purposedriven.com website which now has a "purpose driven catholics" section.

    He isn't consistent. That is the problem.

    I can say I believe anything, but what do my actions show?

    If anything, this is an inidctment against the Southern Baptist Convention for letting this guy run unchecked for so long.
     
  15. bjonson

    bjonson New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2001
    Messages:
    336
    Likes Received:
    1
    Here is a review I wrote of the video posted here:
    http://www.purposedriven.com/en-US/40DayCampaigns/40DaysOfPurpose/40DOPHOME.htm

    Rick Warren, pastor of the largest Southern Baptist Church in the world, has become a household name. Author of the best selling book “Purpose-Driven Life”, he has more exposure both to the unsaved world and church than almost any other Christian author. Clearly, when he speaks, people listen. James 3:1 reminds us that teachers are under a different level of scrutiny from God than anyone else. Tasked with being an evangel of the Good News, a minister must approach his calling with the utmost sobriety and care. In this brief discussion, I have no intention of calling into question Rick Warren’s motives. I have no reason to believe that he doesn’t love God, his church and the unsaved. There is nothing in his life that leads me to believe he is a wolf in sheep’s clothing. However, the Bible encourages us to examine all things as Bereans and be discerning. No one is above this biblical examination. The ends never justify the means when it comes to Christian ministry.

    The video on exponential growth, presented by Warren, is one of the most shocking teachings I have ever seen emerge from a Southern Baptist. The SBC is considered conservative and thoroughly Bible-based. When a minister in the SBC presents philosophies or doctrines that are contrary to scripture, he must be rebuked. This is true of the pastor of the smallest congregation as well as the largest. The fact that Saddleback Church is the largest in the movement makes this action so much more urgent.

    This video is intended for pastors who are preparing for their “Purpose-Driven” church program. In this 20 minute presentation, Rick Warren departs from sound hermeneutics over and over again. From the first few sentences, I could easily have replaced this Southern Baptist with a modern Charismatic and would not have noticed a difference. There was almost nothing Baptist about his brief discussion.

    Here are some things Warren said in the first few minutes:

    “…Most important principal - exponential thinking.”

    “If you want God to do something really big in your church, you're going to have to apply the principals of exponential thinking as taught in the Bible.”

    “The Lord clearly put an idea in my mind...God spoke to me that my faith was not big enough..."you must think exponentially" was the thought that God kept putting in my mind.”

    Now, my first thought is, “what is exponential thinking?” He is asserting that it is “the most important principal” and so it is fair to examine this term as he defines it. Essentially, Warren claims exponential thinking is “adding a zero” to whatever number you have in mind. Let’s put this in context. Warren is introducing a church growth strategy and claims this term is the most important principal. What is the church? Is the church an organization? Is it a business? Is it a non-profit benevolence organization? Is it a counseling center? No, the church is the living Body of Christ. It is not an organization; it is an organism. Christ is the head and He is the responsible for its growth. Consider Acts 2:46:

    "And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts," (Acts 2:46, ESV)
    It seems clear to me that the “most important principal” of church growth is the sovereign oversight of the Lord Jesus Christ. Warren’s strategy of exponential thinking supplants God’s role as the One Who ultimately grows His church. No amount of strategies, gimmicks, persuasion or promises will result in true church growth. Our sovereign Lord is the One responsible for that.
    When Warren says “if you want God to do something really big…” then you have to think exponentially. Also, he says “God spoke to me that my faith wasn’t big enough.” I have to admit, when I saw him make these statements I instantly thought of the type of false teaching one sees on TBN any given day of the week. Hebrews 1 says that “God…has in these last days spoken to us through His Son.” No one hears the audible voice of God. If Warren meant to say that he felt an impression that his faith wasn’t big enough, then he should be careful to word it that way. A responsible Pastor shouldn’t be this careless. Regardless of how it was worded, one must question whether it is a valid statement. If God is the One who is responsible for growing His church, and no other method is therefore legitimate, then would God chastise Warren for a lack of faith in something he can’t do? From the very beginning, his premise is faulty. Nonetheless, he claims God gave Him 10 principles related to exponential growth. They are:

    1. Exponential growth is possible - Gen. 47:27

    With his first point, Warren begins the train wreck of faulty exegesis.

    "Thus Israel settled in the land of Egypt, in the land of Goshen. And they gained possessions in it, and were fruitful and multiplied greatly." (Genesis 47:27)

    Somehow, Warren wants to take this passage out of context and attempts to apply it to a specific church growth program promise. The Genesis passage simply states a fact; the children of Israel multiplied exceedingly, even exponentially. However, this is directly tied to the fact that God specifically told Abraham that they would! There is nothing revelatory here. There is nothing related to Warren’s “40 Days of Purpose” program here. Surprisingly, he analogously mentions Starbucks and Krispy Kreme as examples of why we should expect our churches to grow exponentially. Instead of recognizing that the church is not a business, he compares it to two fast-growth companies. Anyone with a reasonable amount of discernment should see the invalidity of this illustration.

    2. Exponential growth is the New Testament model – Acts 6:7

    "And the word of God continued to increase, and the number of the disciples multiplied greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests became obedient to the faith " (Acts 6:7)
    Warren takes a general statement about the Body of Christ and applies it to individual congregations. Has the church grown exponentially since the book of Acts? Certainly. Should we expect that same growth in each congregation? Nothing says we should. By God’s Providence, there are Christian churches in nearly every community of America. Many of these communities are very small. Some of them are in dying towns. Is it reasonable for a small, God-honoring church in a small town to experience exponential growth? I would say no. Does this mean the pastor’s faith is deficient? I don’t think so. Calling exponential growth a New Testament model is only accurate if one refers to the body of Christ as a whole and not individual congregations.

    3. Exponential growth brings honor to God – Is. 26:15

    "But you have increased the nation, O Lord, you have increased the nation; you are glorified; you have enlarged all the borders of the land." (Isaiah 26:15)
    This point is almost unnecessary. No one questions the truth of what is stated here. The passage in Isaiah is looking toward the prophetic reality that Israel would be increased after their captivity. God would not forget them and He would restore them and return growth. God will receive honor for that. There is no direct application to an individual congregation here. Worse, he makes the following statement regarding this point:

    “We limit God when we think of addition instead of multiplication...God wants us to think in exponential terms”

    He does? Where does God say that in His Word? The viewer is asked to accept this statement at face value without any support whatsoever. Perhaps Warren relies on the fact that he has already indicated that he hears the very voice of God, so how can we question him? The very suggestion that we “limit God” is blasphemous. It is an ultimate affront to a Sovereign God to suggest that our actions, or inactions, somehow deny Him the ability to accomplish His purposes. There is very, very bad theology here and I am afraid most viewers won’t even notice it.


    4. Exponential growth captures the attention of the unbelieving world – Ex. 1:12

    "But the more they were oppressed, the more they multiplied and the more they spread abroad. And the Egyptians were in dread of the people of Israel." (Exodus 1:12)
    Any layman bible student could identify this passage as meaningful only because of its context. The Egyptian task-masters were laying a heavy burden on the enslaved Hebrews. Because of the Abrahamic promise of phenomenal growth, the children of Israel continued to magnify in numbers in spite of their maltreatment. The Egyptians were grieved because they witnessed this fact. With complete mistreatment of God’s Word, Warren hurls this example into the New Testament age and says this, “Wouldn't you like people...to be alarmed because your church is growing so fast?” I don’t understand how Warren can ask this type of question.

    5. Exponential growth is caused by God – Deut. 1:10

    "The Lord your God has multiplied you, and behold, you are today as numerous as the stars of heaven." (Deuteronomy 1:10)
    This passage is related to Israel, just as was the case in earlier points. Nonetheless, his statement, “exponential growth is caused by God” is unarguably true. My question for Warren is this: If exponential growth is caused by God, then why are you teaching people how to achieve it by using your program? I truly wonder if Warren is remotely aware of how he contradicts the purpose of his program by acquiescing to God’s sovereignty here.

    6. Exponential Growth is the result of God's blessing on your life – Is. 51:2

    "Look to Abraham your father and to Sarah who bore you; for he was but one when I called him, that I might bless him and multiply him." (Isaiah 51:2)

    Warren seems fixated with God’s promise to Abraham to magnify the Israelites, probably because it fits his thesis so well. This technique, finding isolated or unrelated scriptures that support a particular thesis or position, is becoming more and more common among Southern Baptists. When a pastor/teacher approaches the Word of God piecemeal instead of verse by verse and in context, he is in danger of serious interpretative errors. This is a perfect example. Additionally, the supposition he is making in point six is faulty. It is a logical “if/then” statement. If God blesses your life, then you will experience exponential growth. He is attributing this growth to God’s blessing. Then, he applies this to each church congregation equally. As I said earlier, it is unreasonable to expect every local church to grow as Warren expects them to grow. There are various demographic and certainly spiritual reasons why certain churches will not grow exponentially. I’ll go so far as to say the Bible indicates growing apostasy in the last days, not a surge in church growth. If anything, we might expect to see less growth since the Way is narrow.

    7. Exponential Growth makes God smile. He rewards it – no scripture reference

    Warren referenced the parable of the talents after presenting this point. Perhaps the reader has noticed what I noticed – if exponential growth is caused by God (see point 5) and if it brings God honor (point 3), then why is God rewarding man for it? He is teaching how to cause exponential growth to occur but then says it is all up to God. After saying it is all up to God he is claiming God will reward us for doing it. This is contradictory and confusing, at best.

    8. The only barrier to exponential growth is our own unbelief – Mark 6:52

    "for they did not understand about the loaves, but their hearts were hardened. " (Mark 6:52)

    There is nothing in the above verse that relates to whether or not a local church will experience a specific amount of growth. Does our lack of faith limit God? No, certainly not. Does our lack of faith limit our effectiveness or restrict what God may do through us? That question deserves careful theological consideration. On at least one occasion our Lord limited the miracles that he did based on a lack of man’s faith (Mark 6:5, 6). However we deal with this issue, we can be sure it doesn’t apply as Warren supposes. God is sovereign over His church; He is the one who causes growth. Warren is making this a responsibility of man.

    9. The secret of exponential growth is believing God for big things – Mat. 9:29; James 5:16

    "Then he touched their eyes, saying, “According to your faith be it done to you.”" (Matthew 9:29)
    "Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working." (James 5:16)
    Warren’s promise in this point is contingent upon the validity of the concept of “exponential growth.” As we are discovering, the entire premise is wrong and, therefore, this comment is irrelevant. The passages he has provided are particularly instructive here. It is true that our belief in God can/will result in “big things”. Physical healing as part of Messianic prophecy and having our sins forgiven are essential biblical elements. Believing God for a local church growth program is something else entirely.


    10. Exponential Growth begins with exponential thinking – Is. 4:2,3

    "In that day the branch of the Lord shall be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the land shall be the pride and honor of the survivors of Israel. And he who is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy, everyone who has been recorded for life in Jerusalem," (Isaiah 4:2-3)
    I am unable to find the connection between Warren’s tenth point and this passage from Isaiah.

    When I read a statement like this, I think immediately of Norman Vincent Peale or Robert Schuller. This type of “change reality with your thoughts” is from the charismatic word faith heresy. There is no excuse for a Southern Baptist minister to be dabbling in these issues. Unfortunately, the popularity of his books and programs appear to have numbed the doctrinal discernment of millions of evangelicals. In my view, a statement such as this should set off red alarms immediately.

    As if these ten points aren’t enough, Warren then spends a couple of minutes explaining how to utilize exponential thinking. Here are some quotes:

    “How do you think exponentially? You simply put a zero behind the number.”

    He said God said to him, "you are not thinking big enough - add a zero". Instead of 3000, think of 30,000. He recommends we do this in our events. “God would have to show up...force us to think in ways we've never thought before.”

    “exponential thinking keeps you from making the mistake of setting up a system that won't get bigger.” He said the church is “stuck in a shoe that isn't able to get any bigger.” This is due to our faulty thinking.

    "Pastors and leaders...you are limiting the growth of your church because you haven't set a goal that forces you to think out of the box and ... do things in new ways." "We may be limiting God's will for our churches." “Faith stretches us...works in the realm of the impossible...whatsoever is not of faith is sin."

    Please read these quotes again. These statements are not being made by an Oral Roberts or Benny Hinn; they are uttered by the pastor of the largest church in the Southern Baptist Convention. Where is the accountability? Who is rebuking Warren on his faulty doctrine and man-centered theology? How does this kind of program enjoy such acceptance? I believe the answer is pragmatism. Many pastors are unhappy and even depressed with their smaller congregations. They feel as if preaching the Word expositionally is not interesting enough. They see a Rick Warren take off his socks and put on a Hawaiian shirt and think the power of God is behind it. There is a famine of the Word of God in our land. There is no famine of mega-churches or Rick Warren’s books. And, I fear that those who are trying to subsist on a diet of “purpose-driven” philosophy will find their ears tickled and spiritual strength gone.
     
  16. Boanerges

    Boanerges New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2005
    Messages:
    591
    Likes Received:
    0
    Anyone read the Newsweek article about Warrens marketing scheme for the PDL stuff? What an eye opener that was.
     
  17. All about Grace

    All about Grace New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2002
    Messages:
    1,680
    Likes Received:
    0
    BJ,

    Your mind is so clearly made up that I will not spend a considerable amount of time refuting your flawed presentation here. Just a couple of observations ...

    Unlike your approach where you state:

    the Bible encourages us to examine all things as Bereans and be discerning. No one is above this biblical examination.

    2 things here:
    1. Where does the Bible say examine things "as Bereans"?

    2. Is the Bible's instruction to examine oneself and be discerning primarily in regard to one's own teaching and beliefs or the teachings and beliefs of others (in the context you imply here)? Follow-up: is examination primarily for the protection of one's own beliefs or to "expose" others who you agree believe the same core beliefs to which you adhere?


    Other observations ...

    1. Since Warren's teachings on exponential thinking are based on the premise that God spoke to him regarding this matter during his own quiet time, are you suggesting God did not do this or that God's challenge to Warren was false?

    2. Is exponential thinking foreign to the teachings of Jesus regarding supernatural faith (removing mountains sounds kind of absurd to me)?

    3. Since as you affirm growing the church is actually up to God, can God use the principles of Warren and the PDC to grow vibrant, healthy churches?

    It is very interesting to me that God seems to use people and churches that target the lost (in this case "seeker-sensitive" or "purpose driven" churches) to reach and baptize more than those who do not focus on reaching people (and please don't try and pull that outlandish argument about Catholics and Mormons and numbers). I would argue that this is a simple result of churches that reflect the heart of God. It is obvious from Luke 15 that God is far more focused on those who are outside the fold than those are inside the fold. But that's for another thread.

    One final note, you say at the end ... I fear that those who are trying to subsist on a diet of “purpose-driven” philosophy will find their ears tickled and spiritual strength gone.

    Can you please provide evidence that Christians are "weaker" in seeker-sensitive or purpose-driven churches than in others? I hear this argument ad nauseum and have yet to see data to support this arrogant assertion.

    I believe true spiritual growth is shown in fruit of the most basic type -- fulfilling the Great Commission. What I discover when examining the data is that those churches that claim to be those committed to nothing but "true" preaching, etc. (although the Bible provides no exclusive model and thus the claim that expositional preaching is the only model is extra-biblical in and of itself) grow primarily through church transfers. I have asked leaders at all levels why this is the case and have yet to find a reasonable answer. The spiritually sounding "growth is up to God" argument just does not cut it. Show me the facts.

    I would be interested to know how long your own church has defined its "purpose" clearly and when your purpose statements were developed. Has it been in recent years or was this something that has been in place for more than 20 years or so?
     
  18. eloidalmanutha

    eloidalmanutha New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2005
    Messages:
    589
    Likes Received:
    0
    I went through this on another thread, but sure, I would love to repeat what I said before :D

    ABOUT GOD:
    "these three are co-equal"? script?


    ABOUT MAN:
    "Although man has tremendous potential for good"

    ALL have have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God - Rom 3:23


    ABOUT ETERNITY:
    "Heaven and Hell are places of eternal existence."

    Hell is eternal punishment, how tasteful not to mention that.
    If Heaven is only eternal "existence", then we have been sold a lie.


    ABOUT JESUS CHRIST:
    "He is co-equal with the Father." script?

    "Jesus lived a sinless human life . . ."

    denies his Deity. Jesus IS without sin, He is God, perfect, incapable of sin, cannot sin, IS sinless.

    "He arose from the dead after three days to demonstrate His power over sin and death."

    He demonstrated His power over sin on the cross.
    He demonstrated His power over death by His *bodily* resurrection.


    ABOUT SALVATION:
    "Only by trusting in Jesus Christ as God´s offer of forgiveness can man be saved from sin´s penalty."

    An extreme price, and bought with His blood, to save us from hell - is reduced to "God's offer" . . . shaking head [​IMG]

    where is repentance? confession of sin? hello????
    before you jump all over me :D the gift of salvation is in itself a gift of grace and faith -the acceptance is one of repentance, confession of sin and belief.


    ABOUT ETERNAL SECURITY:

    In addition, which is not mentioned in the statement, is submission to God of the will, contending for the faith, casting aside all hindrances, submitting to the correction and discipline of God, and a list of stuff they forgot.


    THE HOLY SPIRIT:

    "The Holy Spirit is equal with the Father and the Son as God."

    The Holy Spirit IS God. GOD IS A SPIRIT.

    "He is present in the world to make men aware of their need for Jesus Christ."

    Correction: He CONVICTS THE WORLD OF SIN

    "He also lives in every Christian from the moment of salvation."

    The Holy Spirit indwells, causes one to be reborn of Spirit and Water.

    "He provides the Christian with power for living, understanding of spiritual truth,"

    The Holy Spirit leads and guides into ALL truth = the Word of God. "spiritual truth" is ambiguous - all religions and cults have "spiritual truth"

    "and guidance in doing what is right."

    How moral of Him. Come on . . . He guides us to be obedient to the will and purpose of God. "what is right" is morality - unbelievers can be moral and do what is right.

    "The Christian seeks to live under His control daily."

    we are robots?


    ABOUT THE BIBLE:
    "The Bible is God´s word to all men. It was written by human authors, under the supernatural guidance of the Holy Spirit."

    "supernatural guidence" is not the same thing as inpsired - guidence = spiritis, spirit guides, and automatic writing . . . ewwww :eek:

    "It is the supreme source of truth for Christian beliefs and living."

    God's Word IS Truth - that is the only truth there is, not supreme, but Infinite, Perfect, Pure, Righteous - you get the idea ;)


    "Because it is inspired by God, it is truth without any mixture of error."

    Wording leaves room for doubt as to the infallability of the Word - this hints that there could be truth mixed with error.


    That was fun - got any more?
     
  19. bjonson

    bjonson New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2001
    Messages:
    336
    Likes Received:
    1
    Unlike your approach where you state:

    the Bible encourages us to examine all things as Bereans and be discerning. No one is above this biblical examination.

    2 things here:
    1. Where does the Bible say examine things "as Bereans"?

    2. Is the Bible's instruction to examine oneself and be discerning primarily in regard to one's own teaching and beliefs or the teachings and beliefs of others (in the context you imply here)? Follow-up: is examination primarily for the protection of one's own beliefs or to "expose" others who you agree believe the same core beliefs to which you adhere?


    Other observations ...

    1. Since Warren's teachings on exponential thinking are based on the premise that God spoke to him regarding this matter during his own quiet time, are you suggesting God did not do this or that God's challenge to Warren was false?

    2. Is exponential thinking foreign to the teachings of Jesus regarding supernatural faith (removing mountains sounds kind of absurd to me)?

    3. Since as you affirm growing the church is actually up to God, can God use the principles of Warren and the PDC to grow vibrant, healthy churches?

    It is very interesting to me that God seems to use people and churches that target the lost (in this case "seeker-sensitive" or "purpose driven" churches) to reach and baptize more than those who do not focus on reaching people (and please don't try and pull that outlandish argument about Catholics and Mormons and numbers). I would argue that this is a simple result of churches that reflect the heart of God. It is obvious from Luke 15 that God is far more focused on those who are outside the fold than those are inside the fold. But that's for another thread.

    One final note, you say at the end ... I fear that those who are trying to subsist on a diet of “purpose-driven” philosophy will find their ears tickled and spiritual strength gone.

    Can you please provide evidence that Christians are "weaker" in seeker-sensitive or purpose-driven churches than in others? I hear this argument ad nauseum and have yet to see data to support this arrogant assertion.

    I believe true spiritual growth is shown in fruit of the most basic type -- fulfilling the Great Commission. What I discover when examining the data is that those churches that claim to be those committed to nothing but "true" preaching, etc. (although the Bible provides no exclusive model and thus the claim that expositional preaching is the only model is extra-biblical in and of itself) grow primarily through church transfers. I have asked leaders at all levels why this is the case and have yet to find a reasonable answer. The spiritually sounding "growth is up to God" argument just does not cut it. Show me the facts.

    I would be interested to know how long your own church has defined its "purpose" clearly and when your purpose statements were developed. Has it been in recent years or was this something that has been in place for more than 20 years or so?
    </font>[/QUOTE]AllofGrace,

    My mind is "clearly made up?" Yes, it absolutely is. Is yours? Of course.

    Look, you have completely ignored the misuse of scripture and errant teachings of Warren that I pointed out in my article. Instead, you ask/assert other issues of ecclesiology and then try to find something about my own church's use of the word "purpose" on their website.

    This, my friend, is a waste of time.

    Let's discuss the content of my article...not peripheral issues.
     
  20. bjonson

    bjonson New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2001
    Messages:
    336
    Likes Received:
    1
Loading...