Roman Catholicism , cult or not?

I don't arrogantly condemn anyone. I qoute what the Bible says. </font>[/QUOTE]No. As I said, Scripture does not give that authority: you don't merely quote the Bible, you interpret it too, and it is that interpretation which arrogantly presumes to condemn other Christians to Hell just because their interpretation differs from yours.

That's what I'm calling you on.

[ETA - tell me, is it for their love and knowledge of the Lord Jesus for which you would have my uncles thrown into the fires of Hell, or the fact that their interpretation of Scripture has the temerity to disagree with yours and that they happen to be in the Wrong Church(TM)?]

 

You still disagree with James on #3. James states, for example, that Abraham's actions in Gen 22:1-14 had soteriological merit (James 2:21-23).

It would appear that, like me, you don't believe in OSAS and are not Calvinist or monergist. Am I correct in my assumption?

 

World Christian Encyclopedia 1982 edition by David Barrett, projected 22,190 different denominations by 1985, that’s some 270 denominations each year or 5 new denominations a week! See pages 15-18.

Thus the second edition in 2001 (David Barrett, George T. Kurian and Todd M. Johnson) stated that there where 33,820 distinct Christian denominations across the world (Vol. 1 page 1:3). Then the authors state that over 33,000 denominations exist in 238 countries (Table 1-5, vol1, page 16).

The above info was collected during a world religion class I took as a philosophy class a few years back. I have no reason to believe that the authors had any agenda when they collected the data. They also list numerous Catholic denominations, which Catholics have refuted, so they’re not biased in any way.

Again, just driving to work I pass a UMC, Baptist, Pentecostal, CoC and a Presbyterian church, all have a very different view on Scripture, some speak in tongues, some believe in believers baptism, some believe in predestination and some believe in freewill and each will say that the other is dead wrong on their interpretation. If by chance a member(s) disagrees they can start their own brand of Christianity, hence the many, different “non-denominational” churches that have crept up over the years. Sola Scriptura has done much to harm the Protestant Church and it’s a same how divided the body of Christ has become…Sola Scriptura gives the likes of DHK to condemn his own parents to Hell and any other person who disagrees with HIS was of interpreting scripture…

Sadly,
Tommy

 

Clearly? So which one of the thousands of Protestant Denomination has it right, DHK? </font>[/QUOTE]This is worth repeating, even if we are talking only about 8 denominations: which has the correct interpretation, DHK? </font>[/QUOTE]Yeah DHK, which denomination has it right? I'd like to know...

 

Any denomination itself is wrong accoring to the Bible 1 Corinthians 1:11-16. We should gather together only in the name of Jesus Christ. We cannot improve what God has demonstrated thru Early Church as no one can teach God. We cannot invent a new method of Salvation, we cannot create a new method of Assembly as there are already plenty of teachings on the church in the Bible. We should call Bro and Sis each other, should believe in His Salvation and should be born again. Should be baptized by immersion, should partake in the Lord Supper every first day of the week ( Acts 20:7), Women should wear head covering, Overseers (=Elders) should be elected as per 1 Tim 3:1-7 and Titus 1, the Pulpit should belong to Holy Spirit, not to the specific clergy system, there should be discipline for sins in the church. We don't call ourselves any denomination but the people outside call us Plymouth Brethren

 

Which type of 'PB' are you, Eliyahu? Taylorite?

 

Matt,
That is what I wanted to discuss with you, because you are there.
As you know, PB started there in UK and Ireland. As I mentioned we don't like to be called PB as 1 Cor 1:11-16 disapproves the denominations. But people call us like that. Now the assemblies were split in general since the issue of Newton and JN Darby. George Mueller tried to intermediate there, but the split continued as we have the same split even in Canada since around 1926. I attend Open Gospel Chapel, but which is relatively conservative in Ontario, and have some good fellowship with closed assemblies, Gospel Halls too.
I hope you can have a chance to visit some of the assemblies there which I believe maintain both the truth and the rituals, while the most Protestant churches relatively ignore the rituals like Supper and Head Covering, etc.
Some eminent figures are CH McIntosh, George Muller, Robert Chapman, Eric Sauer(German), David Livingstone( Africa), Hudson Taylor(Inland Missionary China), Harry Ironside, William McDonald, Recently Art Farstad translated NKJV and compiled Majority Texts,Sir Robert Anderson etc.
I met some brother from Northern Ireland who preached here in Toronto. I notice the discussion on Internet has a limitation, while the visit and personal discussion can exchange quite frank opinions and testimonies. I cannot tell many part of my personal testimonies for myself here. But my personal exchange of the testimonies include a lot of experiences and that's why I recommend you to pay a visit to an assembly there. I think J N Darby is a great man but disagree with him on dispensationalism, etc. It is OK to me as I don't expect one can agree with the other on all the issues.
One typical aspect of PB may be weekly Bread Taking and Wine sharing.

 

World Christian Encyclopedia 1982 edition by David Barrett, projected 22,190 different denominations by 1985, that’s some 270 denominations each year or 5 new denominations a week! See pages 15-18.

Thus the second edition in 2001 (David Barrett, George T. Kurian and Todd M. Johnson) stated that there where 33,820 distinct Christian denominations across the world (Vol. 1 page 1:3). Then the authors state that over 33,000 denominations exist in 238 countries (Table 1-5, vol1, page 16).
</font>[/QUOTE]Check your encylopedia again. Then state your (false) allegation of 32,000 Protestant Denominations. Are all of these that are listed "Protestant?" That is what you first said, and that is what the topic is about? We are not discussing world religions, cults or even Baptists (which existed before the Reformation, neither any of the Christian groups which existed before the Reformation. Protestants are only those which came out of the Reformation. Now strike all those off your list and see what it comes down to. You will fnd that it is much smaller than what your encyclopedia says. There were not that many Reformers during the Reformation. They were the Protestant leaders. They were the ones that "protested" against the Catholic Church at that time. Baptists, who had their heritage before the reformation, were not part of it. There are not many denominations that came out of the Reformation. I think that you and your source are day-dreaming. You explicitly said: Protestant Denmoninations. Stick to your word. That doesn't not mean: All religions, or even all Christian religions, which your encyclopedia probably is referring to.
DHK

 

First I will tell you who it is not referring to.
It is not referring to any of the liberals or modernists--those who deny the supernatural, the inspiration of the Bible, the virgin birth of Mary, salvation through faith, etc.
It includes those "denominations" that are "evangelical" which the Catholic Church is not. Neither are most apostate main-line churches: many of them (but not all) Anglican, certain Methodist, certain Presbyterian, some Baptist, some Congregational, etc. Some of almost every denominaton have apostasized. They no longer preach the gospel. They no longer believe the Bible to be the inspired Word of God.

Now take a look on this board for a quick overview.
Tam is Pentecostal.
D28Guy is WOF
Bob Ryan has an SDA background
There are different types of Baptists here.
I think Eliyahu is Plymouth Brethren.

There are a number of others of different backgrounds here that I can't think of right now that are evangelical. They all believe in sola scriptura. They all, through sola scriptura come to the conclusion that:
Salvation is through faith alone.
Jesus atoned for our sins, and He is the only way to Heaven.
That Christ is God; that is--the deity of Christ.

We all believe the essentials of the faith through sola scriptura. We have more in common than most Catholics do among themselves. Sola Scriptura unites; it does not divide, contrary to Catholic's warped thinking. Many of the differences that we debate about are significantly minor compared to the differences between Catholicism and genuine Christianity, or even the different Cathoiic sects within the Catholic Church itself which the RCC doesn't like to talk about.
DHK

 

DHK,

Regarding the person who originally came up with this "thousands" of denominations lunacy, he had a very...ahem, *original*...view of what a denomination is.

If there were lets say 3 different "baptist" groups in a particular city(Southern Baptist, Independant Baptist, Freewill Baptist, etc), each one, believe it or not, would *supposedly* be a different denomination, even though there wouldnt be a nickles worth of difference between them.

Even more absurdly, since all "Southern Baptist" churches are autonimous, every one of them would be classified as a new "denomination"!

I used to have it in my favorites folder of my last computer, but I havent brought it up since getting this one.

I'll try a google search when I get back home from work, and if I can find it I'll post it.

Man alive, when this "thousands of denominations" thing comes up its "Comedy Central" time, isnt it?

Blessings,

Mike

 

DHK,

Actually I'm not, brother.

I admit to being, as you surely know , more sympathic to them than you and others, but I have never really been in that camp, or even had a WOF church as my home fellowship.

I like to refer to myself as a sort of "Bapticostal Independant Assembly of Christer" , but if I had to pick one for myself it would be either...

"Pentecostal" or "Charismatic".

God bless,

Mike

 

Actually I'm not, brother.

I admit to being, as you surely know , more sympathic to them than you and others, but I have never really been in that camp, or even had a WOF church as my home fellowship.

God bless,

Mike </font>[/QUOTE]Sorry Mike,
I should have looked in your profile. I thought I remembered that you had once put WOF as your "denomination." Either way, your "category" is kind of different than the rest of us, so it makes the same point.
DHK

 

All those denominations may agree on many things, but their differences, especially in their way of interpreting scripture are enough to keep them apart. Sola Scriptura FAILS, if not they’d ALL agree on every jot and tittle of scripture, but that’s not the case.

So again, based on scripture, which denomination is the right one? Is it Baptist and if so, which one? SBC, American Baptist, National Baptist or Independent Baptist and then do I chose a Fundamental, Free Will, Missionary…ect?

 

I think we should distinguish between the Truth and Reality. In Truth any denomination is wrong, but in Reality we may have to accept it because there are much more grievous sins and problems than the denomination issue.
For example, both Abortion and Contraception are wrong and sinful, but the Abortion is thousand times more sinful than Contraception, IMO.
There are some tolerable differences among the doctrines, while there are much more grievous tresspassing of the biblical teachings. Even in Protestant churches they sometimes call the Pastor as Reverend. But if you read Psalm 111:9 and other verses, we find Reverend is His Name and that Reverend applies to the Most High. In that aspect, we can notice there are certain desire to be exalted as like a Pope in the human nature, whereas Bible teach us to be humble.
Which one can be tolerable and which sin is more grievous may be judged differently between Protestant and RC quite a lot.

 

Roman Catholics are not even true catholics....

 

...and by that you mean.........

 

sorry Jacob, just checked your profile....

 

I don't like beating a dead horse, and not to be too abrasive (D28GUY has already been trying to put it in a kind way); but the more you post this drivel the more ridiculous you look trying to defend it.
#1. I posted for you a number of demoniations which, through sola scriptura, agree on major doctrines, right on this board. You don't want to accept that little survey as evidence of truth of sola scriptura because of your closed mind.

Example what are the requirements for joining the U.S. army. You can enlighten me. I am a Canadian. Are full-fledged Canadian citizens permitted to join the U.S. army? what about German citizens? Russian citizens? Are we allowed to join without becoming citizens of the U.S. and without agreeing to the U.S. constitution? Why or why not. We all adhere to the same common principles: the betterment of mankind, peace on earth, etc. Why would you discriminate against us? Are you better than us? Who is right and who is wrong? Are the philosophies, goals, and aims of the Canadian armed forces so off base that you would not accept a Canadian into the U.S. army. Sounds very snobbish, and prejudicial to me. Why it is a downright insult. It is akin to calling me a heathen, a pagan, not a Christian. Why would you act like a racist in this manner? Have you no trust? Just because I haven't studied thoroughly your constitution and haven't agreed to every little detail in it (sola constitutionala), why should you discriminate against me?
This is your logic. Thinking that you are the only one that is right because you grew up that way or in that place is ethnocentrism, a form or prejudice without looking at that facts, and that is why you would think, without looking at any of the facts, that the U.S. is undoubtedly the best place to be, and should not allow any one else to join but American citizens.

But I have not gove as far as you have. I am not ethnocentric in my views. I am not prejudiced. I believe I what I believe precisely because of sola scriptura. I believe that I have the best set of beliefs because I have objectively studied the Bible for myself, and yet I am still open to other people's beliefs to an extent. I am not so arrogant as the U.S., nor so close minded.
I do not exclusively close my doors to all others. I am not prejudiced against all others. But as you have a constitution that others must agree to have, our church has a constitution that others must agree to when they join. It contains a statement of faith. If they don't want to agree with it they can be a "Communist" a J.W. or whatever they want. They don't have to be an IFB if they don't want to be. No one is forcing their hand. I will continue my example with governments.

My son was born in a third world country in which we were missionaries. He has the right to citizenship there.
He is a citizen if the U.S. by right of his mother's birht.
He remains a citizen of Canada.
That means a possible citizenship of three nations.
If his conscience permitted him he could possibly join the army of a nation that would be considered by some a terrorist nation.
He could also join the army that would be considered by most nations in that part of the world as arrogant, and the bully of the world who shouldn't go sticking their nose in the internal affairs of all the nations of the world. Where there is trouble there is the U.S.
He could join an army that has a well-known reputation around the world for peace-keepers.
An army is an army. A church is a church. A demnominnation is a denomination. Each one has its own charicteristics, its own statement of faith and/or constitution. You choose the one you wnat to serve. No one forces you to be a Baptist; and no one forces you to be a Catholic. No one will force my son to join either one of the armies that he wants to join. He will make that decision. Hopefully he will join a fourth army not yet mentioned--the army of the Lord.

Turning to religion again:
Ialam forces their children and family to be Muslims.
Catholics forces their children and family to be Catholics.
But Baptists and ture eveangelicals say that each individual must come to Christ on their own accord. They must accept Christ volitionally. No one can force them to trust Christ. It must be their decision. No one can force them which army is best, just as no one can force my son to choose which army to choose if he chooses to join the army. A choice must be made. No man is born a soldier. No man is born a Christian. A choice must be made.

Sola scriptura teaches that evangelicals have it all together and cults like the RCC and J.W.'s as well as the rest don't have a clue what it means to be saved.
DHK

 

Matt Black,

I prefer the word "fruit", but I agree with your point there, yes.

Agree.

No.

They have absolutly (((zero))) soteriological merit whatsoever.

We are justified in God sight through faith alone in Christ. Romans teaches it. Galaciens teaches it. Ephesians teaches it. Jesus taught it. And James teaches it.

Agree.

You got 3 out of 4 correct. If you caould only get with Gods program regarding the 1 you missed.

God bless,

Mike