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Featured Satan Murdered Jesus - The Scripture and Theology

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Arthur King, Oct 18, 2023.

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  1. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    No, Jesus did not die “by the powers of Satan”. Jesus was betrayed, tortured, humiliated, crucified by evil men, but He died when He decided “it is finished” and commended His Spirit into the hands of His Father. He laid down His life at His chiding and took it back up at His choosing.

    peace to you
     
    #221 canadyjd, Oct 29, 2023
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  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Let's work through this (we can see where we agree and disagree). I'll start by listing where I believe you and I agree and disagree, and please correct me if I mistake your view.

    If I understand you correctly, you and I both agree on the following:

    1. It was God's predetermined plan that Christ died, it was His will to crush Him, to put Him to grief (Isaiah 53:7).

    2. Nobody took Jesus life from Him, He gave it willingly (John 10:10).


    I am not sure if you accept or reject the following:

    1. Jesus suffered unjustly but remained silent, like a Lamb led to slaughter (Isaiah 53:7).

    2. By unjust authority and decision Christ was taken away without protest from the people (Isaiah 53:8).

    3. Satan entered Judas to hand Jesus over to the Jewish authorities (Luke 22:3; John 13:27).

    I believe you reject the following (this is our strongest area of disagreement):

    1. Jesus told the Jewish authorities that they were not of God but of their father the Devil, that this is why they seek to murder him - they were carrying out Satan's desires (John 8:42-47)

    2. The Jews who sought to murder Jesus, who Jesus said were doing the desires of Satan, murdered Jesus with the help of godless men (Acts 2:22-23).
     
    #222 JonC, Oct 29, 2023
  3. Scripture More Accurately

    Scripture More Accurately Well-Known Member

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    Suppose that a leader of a gang wants to murder a policeman. He has sons who are also gang members who themselves also hate the policeman and want to kill him.

    On a certain day, the sons succeed in killing the policeman but do so without any directive from their father to do so. Will the authorities charge both the father and the sons with the murder of the policeman?
     
    #223 Scripture More Accurately, Oct 29, 2023
  4. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    First paragraph, point #2. “He gave it (His life) willingly.

    Jesus said He lay down His life by His own authority and took it up again by His own authority.

    That is a much stronger statement than “He gave it willingly”

    Concerning the Pharisees desire to kill Jesus. Do you believe…

    1. Satan was literally their father? No, of course not. Jesus is intentionally insulting them.

    2. Do you believe they were Satan worshipers? No, of course not.

    Whenever Jesus makes such statements, He is attempting to get people to see a truth about themselves. They had hated in their hearts and it was causing them the seek to murder Jesus, violating God’s commandment.

    The major problem with what you are saying is that, imo, it gives far more credit to Satan for the death of Christ than he deserves and far too little credit to Jesus for the authority He exercised in determining the moment His Spirit left His body, causing the body to die.

    peace to you
     
    #224 canadyjd, Oct 29, 2023
  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    The problem with the illustration is that Jesus places their seeking to kill Him as Satan's "desire".

    We have to accept Scripture for what is actually written rather than think of ways around it. The Bible does not state that Satan changed his mind about killing Jesus after entering Judas and handing Jesus over to be murdered.
     
    #225 JonC, Oct 29, 2023
  6. Scripture More Accurately

    Scripture More Accurately Well-Known Member

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    Are you saying that it was not their own desire as well to kill Jesus, just as in the illustration killing the policeman was the desire of both the sons and the gang leader?
     
    #226 Scripture More Accurately, Oct 29, 2023
  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I am fine using a stronger verse. Either way Christ has authority over His life and lays it (His life) down willingly.

    In regards to Satan being the father of those men, Jesus clarifies what it means - they were doing what "Satan desires".

    Do I believe those seeking to kill Jesus, who Jesus said were doing the will of Satan, were "Satan worshippers"? Yes. Not in the sense they knew they were worshipping Satan but in the sense they were not worshipping God.
     
    #227 JonC, Oct 29, 2023
  8. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Illustrations always fall short. The major problem, imo, of this illustration is there is no indication that Satan was directly influencing anyone other than Judas.

    These men acted according to their own sin nature. Their statements indicated they feared the Romans would take their position if Jesus caused problems in Judea.

    Jesus is insulting them. He tells them they are acting just like Satan, their desires mirrored Satan’s desires. These leaders knew exactly what He was saying. Satan is the adversary of God attempting to harm His people.

    Jesus is not saying these men conspired with Satan to kill Jesus, or even had a discourse about how much they all hated Him.

    peace to you
     
    #228 canadyjd, Oct 29, 2023
  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No. I am saying it was their desire because they were of their father the Devil doing his desire.

    Likewise, if we are truly of God then doing His will is our desire.


    There are things we simply cannot get around -

    Satan murdered Jesus
    Jesus lay down His own life, nobody took it from Him


    This thread seems to be more about a few people who cannot reconcile those two biblical truths, so they reason away one.
     
    #229 JonC, Oct 29, 2023
  10. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    That is a huge stretch, imo. We will continue to disagree.

    peace to you and good night
     
    #230 canadyjd, Oct 29, 2023
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  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No, this is false.

    In Scripture the words "of your father" indicate a likeness that includes influence. The men were, per Jesus, "of Satan" doing the desires of Satan.

    Satan is the author of sin and death. The idea that men are uninfluenced, acting on their own free-will without regard to spiritual forces (God or Satan) is not something I find biblical.

    That said, your argument that sinful men murdered Jesus because it was what Satan desired is fine with me. I think you miss the bigger picture (the remainder of the Acts 2 passage) but that's OK.
     
    #231 JonC, Oct 29, 2023
  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    What is a stretch?

    That is what Jesus said. Those men were doing the desires of Satan. There is no getting around that part.
     
    #232 JonC, Oct 29, 2023
  13. Scripture More Accurately

    Scripture More Accurately Well-Known Member

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    You are claiming something stronger about them than what Scripture says. You are claiming that Satan directly influenced them to do what they did. You are going beyond what Scripture says.

    In my illustration, it could have been said, "You are of your father the gang leader and his strong desires you have done." The sons hated the policeman themselves and wanted him dead, and they also knew that their father hated him and wanted him dead.

    Nevertheless, unless the gang leader actually directed them to kill the policeman, the authorities could not charge the gang leader with the killing of the policeman.
     
    #233 Scripture More Accurately, Oct 29, 2023
  14. Scripture More Accurately

    Scripture More Accurately Well-Known Member

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    Actually, the point of my illustration is to point to the reality that mere likeness and similarity of desire do not equal guiltiness on the part of the leader unless there is actual, direct influence from the leader to his sons. The illustration does not fall short.
     
    #234 Scripture More Accurately, Oct 29, 2023
  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I am not claiming that Satan influenced them in some special way. You are inferring that.

    I am saying that those men were "of Satan" doing what "Satan desires". That is what the verse says.


    I know Satan did not materialize and murder Jesus. I'm not saying those men were possessed by Satan.

    But I am saying Jesus only gave two options when it comes to murdering Jesus - "of God" and "of Satan", doing the "desires of God" and doing the "desires of Satan". AND Jesus specifically said that they were of Satan doing his desire.
     
    #235 JonC, Oct 29, 2023
  16. Scripture More Accurately

    Scripture More Accurately Well-Known Member

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    You are contradicting yourself. Earlier, you said, "In Scripture the words 'of your father' indicate a likeness that includes influence. The men were, per Jesus, 'of Satan' doing the desires of Satan" [bold added to the original]. So, you are claiming that Satan influenced them to do what they did, but the text does not say that.
     
    #236 Scripture More Accurately, Oct 29, 2023
  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No. I am saying they were like Satan. That is what it means when Scripture uses "of their father". They were doing what Satan desired.

    As far as the men go, they were acting in ignorance.

    But I guess more to your point, I do not believe in uninfluenced free will.

    They "want" to do the desires of their father the Devil.


    John 8:44 “You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
     
    #237 JonC, Oct 29, 2023
  18. Scripture More Accurately

    Scripture More Accurately Well-Known Member

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    Your understanding is false and unbiblical. Satan did not influence Adam to sin when he ate of the fruit of the knowledge of the tree of good and evil. Adam was not deceived and knowingly chose to sin on his own.

    1 Timothy 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
     
    #238 Scripture More Accurately, Oct 29, 2023
  19. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    YOU said deceived, not me. Adam was influenced by Eve who was deceived by Satan.

    You are trying to wiggle out of your denial of Scripture by swatting gnats. It will not work. Jesus went into detail explaining Satan's lies in that passage.

    The Bible says that those men wanted to do the desires of their father Satan and were doing the desires of their father Satan.

    You may line out that verse in your Bible, but that does not mean it ceases to exist.
     
    #239 JonC, Oct 29, 2023
  20. Scripture More Accurately

    Scripture More Accurately Well-Known Member

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    How interesting that your inability to actually back up what you say from Scripture leads you to claim that someone is "swatting gnats."

    I am not lining that verse out in my Bible. I do not agree that verse shows what you claim it does.
     
    #240 Scripture More Accurately, Oct 29, 2023
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