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Featured Supernatural Self-Perpetuating Divine Design Ensures church Succession.

Discussion in 'Baptist History' started by Alan Gross, Feb 11, 2023.

  1. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    My position from the Bible and confirmed to as great an extent as God wanted to show, by history, is that God didn't leave His pillar and foundation of the truth to be left up to random capriciousness.

    If something like ever did spontaneously happen (as if anything like this has ever close to happening) we wind up with "societies not organized according to the pattern of the Jerusalem Church, but possessing different governments, different officers, a different class of members, different ordinances, doctrines and practices, as churches of Christ?", as said by Graves.

    And I do believe we have an entire world full of there, now, for whatever reason. Where is The Lord and His Word?

    Exodus 25:40: the Old Testament example; "And look that thou make them after their pattern, which was shewed thee in the mount."

    We should follow God's pattern from the Bible for a New Testament church.

    Who does with regard to Salvation by Grace alone, baptism, the Lord's Supper, church discipline, autonomous congregational government, and The Doctrines of Grace, to name a few?

    The large "Christian" religions don't even get Salvation close, no more than Easy Believism, another Gospel, liberal "Baptists".

    Why is that?

    Where have God's Truths been preserves according to the pattern in the New Testament?

    This way Roscoe Brong said, "


    "Here we have the explanation

    for the wholesale loss of Bible Truth

    by false churches and unattached Christians."

    Roscoe Brong was the former Dean of Lexington Baptist College. I never met him, but went to his funeral. I also got a few hundred dollars worth of books from his library. Good solid stuff.


     
    #41 Alan Gross, Feb 15, 2023
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2023
  2. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    For example, most people and these here on the board, have an aweful misunderstanding and misinterpretation of
    BAPTIZED INTO ONE BODY

    For by One Spirit are we all (led* to be) Baptized (by water) into one body (a ‘local” assembly)

    "Now you are the body of Christ (the local” body of baptized believers at Corinth) and members in particular (those particular saved folks who had been led* to be water baptized into membership of the body of Christ, in Corinth.)

    1 Corinthians 12:13, 27.


    Parentheses portion added by me, for clarity, the way I see it.


    *By the Supernatural Guidance and Perpetual SUPERINTENDANCE of the Holy Spirit.


    See: The Shekinah Glory BUSINESS EXECUTIVE of The TRIUNE GODHEAD.


    "Until the Lord Returns, the Spirit (Another Comforter, from The Day of Pentecost, in the Fulfillment of Daniel 9:24e; "to Anoint the most Holy") Has Charge of the Administration of the Churches.

    "II. THE HOLY SPIRIT EQUIPS HIS CHURCHES.

    A. Churches Today
    Must Function Through Human Instrumentalities.

    1. The Spirit calls men into this body
    (l Corinthians 12:13, 18)."

    Which is the Bible Teaching, above.


    Also:

    THE HOLY SPIRIT

    The Shekinah Glory, on the Day of Pentecost is the antitype of the Shekinah, in the Old Testament.

    The Holy Spirit is a type of the Holy Spirit.

    Same Shekinah.


    "Num. 9:15-22; 2 Chron. 7:1-3.

    The Shekinah, in the case of the tabernacle, was for leadership, and in the case of the temple it was a symbol of ownership and possession.

    "The coming of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost meant both of these to the church" (that first church in Jerusalem founded by Jesus, to which 3,000 souls were Added and every one of the subsequent, Biblical, New Testament churches.")

    "(3) To empower the church
    Acts 1:4,8.


    (4) As the abiding comforter and teacher of believers", in His churches.

    John 14:16,17; 1 John 2:20,27.



    See BB post:
    Baptist Perpetuity proven from, 'BAPTIZED INTO ONE BODY'
     
    #42 Alan Gross, Feb 15, 2023
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2023
  3. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Not all agree. It means all believers. Per Ephesians 4:4, ". . . There is one body, . . ."
     
    #43 37818, Feb 15, 2023
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2023
  4. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    A "body" with it's body parts scattered all over the world.

    He says they are "members on particular".

    Where is, if I read Ephesian 4:4 as "one (kind or type or pattern of an organization, i.e., such as His church He built, then that will handle it.

    They are not being baptized, by water, into the church at Corinth?

    It means all believers?

    How would all believers be baptized into "one universal(?) body?

    By "Spirit baptism"?

    That has be invented, since the Holy Spirit never baptised anything, of His Own.

    And it is invented,

    There is "one baptism"(?)

    One baptism for everyone?

    Or, better: one KIND of baptism Ephesians 4:5, in the immediate context ( therefore no "Spirit baptism", as imagined.)

    Same use of the word baptism (one kind of) as with body ( one kind of/ design).

    Reference: The Myth Of The Universal Invisible Church EXPLODED (Section 7) by Roy Mason - Sovereign Grace Landmark Baptist Pastor
     
  5. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Ephesians 4:4-6, ". . . There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. . . ."

    The one body is the body of Christ, His church, Matthew 16:18.
    The one immersion as in Matthew 28:19. Unless the immersion is qualified, water is to be understood.

    It is very simple.
     
  6. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    "The church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth"
    I Timothy 3:15

    We believe The Lord's churches had a Divine Founding, in Jesus Christ,
    that is always local and never "universal" visible, or invisible.
    and not founded by a sinful man reforming something God never Commanded to reform.

    We believe that the use of the Greek word, translated, "church", always refers to a local assembly of congregating, baptized believers and that Satan can't change what the Lord meant, in that His churches are local bodies gathered together to worship God.

    This book:

    In Search of the Universal Invisible Church - Baptist Because

    Does a typically fine job of explaining the Greek word for church, on the New Testament.


    This is the account of a fellow who unexpectedly had to give up on the idea of 'church" meaning, "all saved people", even though Satan took 1500 years to sell it, to most everyone.

    How I Became a "Narrower" Baptist
    By Roy Mason, 1930

    He later authored this fine book as an explanation of what he and I, etc., believes to be, " The Kind of Church (or "body") that Jesus Built.

    The Church that Jesus Built By Roy Mason, Th.D.
    1. Introduction and Introduction Chapter
    2. Did Jesus Found the Church? If so When?
    3. The Kind of Church that Jesus Built
    4. The Family, Kingdom and Church of God Differentiated
    5. The Master's Promise
    6. The Search for the True Church
    7. The Doctrinal Test
    8. Points to be Remembered
    9. Baptist Under Other Names
    10. Statements of other Historians
    11. What is the mission of the Church That Jesus Built
    12. The Church that Jesus Built justifying its Existence
    13. Conclusion
     
  7. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    None of this changes the Biblical facts. The one body is the one church that Jesus buildes. Ephesians 2:19-22, ". . . Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. . . ." Which is actually made up of His actual people.
     
  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    That is problematic (both from a historical standpoint and from my position).

    From my position it is problematic because it looks at the church (as an institution) and the authority for constitution in an unbiblical way (it assumes the RCC understanding is correct, just misplaced).

    From a historical perspective it is problematic because the churches Landmarkism points to are not all baptistic churches (like Turtullian's, anabaptist churches, etc.). Additionally, when Landmarkism acknowledges gaps their reasoning is often there is no record because the church was in hiding (it is not shown by history that a succession of churches existed....although a preservation of doctrine existed dispursed through churches).
     
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  9. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    The Shekinah Glory BUSINESS EXECUTIVE of The TRIUNE GODHEAD.

    The Holy Spirit rebukes, warns, or encourages the churches.

    "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches" (Revelation 2:17, 29, and 3:13).

    a. In the Scriptures (letters to the churches),
    the Spirit is carrying on His ministry of governing the churches.

    b. Each letter, as Ephesians 2, is authoritative
    because it is the voice of the Spirit unto the churches.

    Church autonomy
    rests on other biblically based convictions of Baptists.

    For example, the Lordship of Christ, a belief precious to Baptists, relates to autonomy.

    Christ is Lord of each person and of each church.

    Jesus, not any individual or group, is to be in control.

    His Lordship for a church is exercised through the members of the church, persons who have trusted and followed him as Lord (Ephesians 4:1-16).

    As Baptists we go on record as having no other right to be heard except on the basis of our loyalty to The Lord.

    The Bible indicates that only those who have been born-again are to be members of churches (Acts 2:47).

    These persons have been saved only by faith in God’s grace gift of salvation in Christ, and thus all are spiritually on the same plane (Romans 5:1-2; Ephesians 2:8-9).

    They are then, "fellowcitizens with the saints."

    Baptist worship of God differs greatly among churches but certain elements are almost always present because of basic Baptist convictions.

    Whatever form it takes, Baptist worship ought always seek to glorify God and no one else, in the household of God.

    And God indeed hath set some in the church; first apostles, secondly prophets, in the first church, at Jerusalem and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets.

    "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church;" Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone

    The Shekinah Glory BUSINESS EXECUTIVE of The TRIUNE GODHEAD.

    II. THE HOLY SPIRIT EQUIPS HIS CHURCHES.

    A. Churches Today
    Must Function Through Human Instrumentalities.

    1. The Spirit calls men into this body
    (l Corinthians 12:13, 18).

    2. The Spirit gives the needed spiritual gifts to them to enable them in the work of the Lord (l Corinthians 12:23-24), in whom all the building fitly framed together.

    As such it is a local holy temple for the habitation of God through the Spirit (Eph. 2:21-22)

    In whom ye, local saved folks, also are builded together in the local church body, as the Holy Spirit adds them and leds.

    https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...roofs+of+Baptist+Perpetuity+-+Rosco+Brong.pdf

    "Paul was writing to the church at Ephesus and he reveals here the glorious fact that a true New Testament church is a holy temple in the Lord, and that one purpose for which the Lord built His church at Ephesus, and, we believe, every other true New Testament church, is that God in the Spirit might dwell therein.·

    Can anyone believe that God, having chosen to manifest His presence in a special way in the churches, for an habitation of God through the Spirit, of the Lord Jesus, allowed His purpose to be frustrated, so that for centuries He had no such habitation on earth?

    But Protestants do so declare, and countless Baptists, ignorant of or indifferent to their blood-bought heritage, are deceived by or are silent in the face of this monstrous lie!

    The Shekinah Glory BUSINESS EXECUTIVE of The TRIUNE GODHEAD.

    C. The Spirit Gives the Diversity of Necessary Gifts, to local churches, which are actually made up of His actual people. (Ephesians 4:8, 11-16).

    1. The officers mentioned are gifts from God.
    2. See also I Corinthians 12:10, 28-30.
    3. Without varied gifts, the body would fail and fall apart.

    Everything I see in that passage (and in the rest of The New Testament) concerns a local assembly of baptized believers, i.e., local bodies, local churches.
     
  10. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    from: https://harmony-mbc.com/wp-content/...rticles/The-Church-that-Jesus-Built-Mason.pdf

    What we mean by perpetuity:

    S. H. Ford, LL.D.: "Succession among Baptists is not a linked chain of churches or ministers, uninterrupted and traceable at this distant day...

    The true and defensible doctrine is that baptized believers have existed in every age since John baptized in Jordan, and have met as a baptized congregation in covenant and fellowship where an opportunity permitted."

    "Not only did Christ promise to be with His ecclesta to the end of the world, when He gave the Commission, but when He established the memorial supper and delivered it to His church He said, "This do in remembrance of Me till I come."

    Now if the doing of a thing is to be perpetuated the doers of the thing must be perpetuated.

    This is a self-evident proposition.” -W.D.Nowlin in -"Western Recorder."

    "There are those who readily admit a perpetuity of Baptist principles but who are not willing to admit perpetuity of Baptist churches.

    For instance, H. C. Vedder, in his "Short History of the Baptists," devotes most of his introduction to an argument against Baptist perpetuity, then, strange to say, begins his history of the Baptists in the New Testament times!

    He does not admit the continuance of Baptist churches, but devotes upwards of two hundred pages to what he calls a "history of Baptist principles."

    There immediately arises this question:

    If Baptist principles have had continuous existence from apostolic times, then surely there must have existed people who held those principles.

    For the perpetuity of Baptist principles necessarily involves the fact that there lived individuals who held them.

    Were not the individuals who held Baptist principles Baptists?

    And were not the churches made up of such individual Baptist churches?

    If not, I am greatly concerned to know what kind of churches they were.

    The position that there has been a perpetuity of Baptist principles but not of Baptists is illogical, and it ill becomes a person of thoughtful mind to hold such a position.

    5. None deny that there have existed from the days of the apostles on, companies, congregations, and sects of Christians dissenting from the established and commonly accepted forms.

    When the prevailing churches fell into errors, and departed from the gospel teaching, those who continued godly separated themselves from the multitude and worshipped and served God according to their understanding of the Scriptures.

    These people, true to apostolic teaching, constituting in the strictest sense what remained of the true church of Christ, were bitterly persecuted, termed "heretics," and had applied to them all sorts of odious names. And because they usually wore the names applied to them in hatred by their enemies, the names varied.

    Consequently it would be foolish for one, because the name Baptist cannot be traced back successively to apostolic times, to deny that people holding Baptist principles and in a real sense Baptists have existed. 6.

    Objection is often made to tracing Baptist descent though the socalled dissenting "sects," that existed from the New Testament times on, upon the ground that there were irregularities among them as to doctrine and practice.

    Some of the churches included under the same name as that of the peoples through whom Baptists trace their perpetuity, practiced things out of harmony with the things that Baptists practice today..

    Therefore, it is argued that Baptists err in claiming kinship with them. Let us think about this objection for a few moments.

    It ought to be evident to anyone who will think it over that churches, absolutely independent, bound together in no close organic way, driven into seclusion, scattered and separated by persecution, would in all probability come to differ somewhat in minor matters of doctrine and polity.

    Moreover, some might even depart so far from the Scriptures' teaching as to become unworthy of the
    name borne by them.
     
  11. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    @Alan Gross you have a non New Testament view of God's Holy Temple.
     
  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I agree that baptized believers existed.
     
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  13. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    What else could this possibly mean, dare I ask?

    Just as Jesus is the Head
    of each local New Testament church body

    and Jesus died for the Regenerated membership
    of each local New Testament church body,

    the Holy Spirit dwells in each local New Testament church body,
    for "an habitation of God through the Spirit."

    THE HOLY SPIRIT

    "The name 'parakletos' cannot be translated by 'comfort,' or be taken as the name of any abstract influence. The Comforter, Instructor, Patron, Guide, Advocate, whom this term brings before us, must be a person" (Strong, Systematic Theology).

    "He Came on the Day of Pentecost in Special Capacity
    and in fulfillment of prophecy; to "Anoint the Most Holy", (Daniel 9:24d)


    "This explains the meaning of Christ's promise to send the Spirit.

    This special capacity was:


    (1) as the antitype of the Shekinah.

    Num. 9:15-22; 2 Chron. 7:1-3.

    The Shekinah, in the case of the tabernacle, was for leadership, and in the case of the temple it was a symbol of ownership and possession.

    "The coming of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost meant both of these" to the Lord's churches.

    Leadership, Ownership, and Possession.



    The opposite of this above, is this below;


    By the Book, under the Lordship of Christ.

    Ephesians 3:21 "Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus
    throughout all ages, world without end. Amen."


    such as; Ephesians 3:21 "Unto him be glory"
    (by the Indwelling Habitation, Leadership, Ownership, and Possession
    of the Supernatural Superintendence of The Holy Spirit,
    i.e., Another Comforter.)

    "in the church (each local New Testament church body),


    by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end"

    (by the Indwelling Habitation, Leadership, Ownership, and Possession
    of the Supernatural Superintendence of The Holy Spirit,
    i.e., Another Comforter.)

    "Amen."
     
    #53 Alan Gross, Feb 15, 2023
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2023
  14. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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  15. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Each and every church of the Lord Jesus is likened to a body, temple*, household, House of God (I Timothy 3;15) etc.

    II Corinthians 6:16*; "And what agreement hath the Temple of God with idols?
    for ye are the Temple of the Living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people." All of this is talking about local New Testament church bodies as the Temple of the Living God.

    "For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ." I Corinthians 12:12.

    I think you had trouble with I Corinthians 12:13, being a local church body, too.

    Context.
     
    #55 Alan Gross, Feb 15, 2023
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2023
  16. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    According to Ephesians 4:4, "There is one body" as to kind in this gospel age. If it is the universal, invisible body, then there is no local and particular body. On the other hand, if it is the local body (a thing which harmonizes with the Bible's definition of the body of Christ in I Corinthians 12:27), then there is no such thing as a universal, invisible body. One must either give up the local church or the big church. There are no more two kinds of bodies of Christ than there are two kinds of faith or two kinds of God. The baptism which puts one in the body in Ephesians 4:5 is water baptism, seeing it is a baptism which follows faith: "One Lord, one faith, one baptism." Water baptism puts one in a local church, not some invisible church.

    from: Universal church

    "The New Testament never speaks of one particular assembly or church as a part of the whole, but of each assembly as "the whole church."

    In #1Co 14:23, Paul says, "If therefore the whole church be come together into one place..."

    Writing to the Romans from Corinth, in his closing salutation, Paul says, "Gaius mine host, and of the whole church, saluteth you" (#Ro 16:23).

    Speaking of the church under the metaphor of the human body, #1Co 12:27, Paul says "Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular."

    The article is absent in the Greek.

    The same is true when the church is represented under the figure of a temple.

    The church at Corinth is called "the temple of God" in #1Co 3:16 and also in #2Co 6:16.

    In the second chapter of Ephesians the church is in view under the figure of a building or temple.

    Local congregations are in view in #Eph 2:21; "In whom (Christ) all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple (sanctuary) in the Lord."

    In #Eph 2:22 the church at Ephesus is referred to: "In whom (Christ) ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit."


    We have given the correct text in these quotations.

    In #Eph 3:21 "Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen."

    from: C.D. COLE VOLUME #3- THE DEFINITION OF CHURCH

    "God is not the author of any such confusion. Jesus Christ has only one kind of church or body on this earth, and that is the local assembly--the organized body of baptized believers in any given community.

    The church which Paul called 'the house of God' was a local church.

    The church which Paul said was the 'pillar and ground of the truth' was a local church.

    The church to which the Lord Jesus promised perpetuity (Matt.16:8) was a local church, for He never spoke of any other kind.

    from: https://harmony-mbc.com/wp-content/...rticles/The-Church-that-Jesus-Built-Mason.pdf

    "Hear the Word of God:

    In the letter to the Ephesians, Paul says: "In whom each several building, fitly framed together, groweth into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom ye also are builded together for a habitation of God in the Spirit." (Ephesians 2:21, 22, Revised Version)

    Here are two distinct affirmations:

    First - Each several building or particular assembly groweth into a holy temple of the Lord That is, by itself it is a temple of the Lord.

    Second - What is true of each is true of the church at Ephesus, "In whom ye also are builded together for a habitation of God through the Spirit."

    Just before this he had written of the church as an institution, or abstractly, in which Jew and Gentile are made into one. But the abstract becomes concrete in each several building.


    To the elders of this same particular church at Ephesus he said: "Take heed to yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit hath made you bishops, to feed the church of the Lord which he purchased with his own blood." (Acts 20:28).

    This flock, this church of the Lord, purchased by His own blood, is a particular assembly.

    Again to the particular church at Corinth Paul wrote: "Ye are God's building - ye are a temple of God and the Spirit dwelleth in you - now ye are the body of Christ, and severally members thereof." (I Corinthians 3:7, 16; 12:27.)

    When concerning the body of Christ he says: "And whether one member suffereth all the members suffer with it," he is certainly not speaking of the Ecclesia in Glory, all of whose members will be past sufferings when constituting an ecclesia.

    Again concerning the particular church at Ephesus, he writes to Timothy whom he had left in that city:

    "These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly; but if I tarry long, that thou mayest know, how men ought to behave themselves in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth."

    He is certainly not writing of behavior in the general assembly in glory.

    The things he had written touching behavior were, when and how the men should pray, how the women should dress and work, and the qualifications of bishops and deacons. Even that remarkable passage, so often and so confidently quoted as referring exclusively to some supposed now existing "universal, invisible, spiritual church," namely: Ephesians 1:22, 23, "And gave him to be head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all" - even this very body, "filled unto all the fullness of God," is presently applied, in his prayer, to the particular congregation (Ephesians 3:19).

    from: Ecclesia - The Church: Lecture I By B. H. Carroll - Now in glory
     
    #56 Alan Gross, Feb 16, 2023
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2023
  17. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    No local church is the whole body of Christ. Part of, yes. The whole, no.
     
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  18. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The one body is made up of local churches.
    There is absolutely no place in the word of God where a local church is called "a body."
     
  19. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    "

    THE WHOLE CHURCH

    We now have 29 passages left. Thus far we have not found even one thing which in the least resembles the universal, invisible church. To the universal church people the whole church consists of "the whole number of the elect, that have been, are, or shall be gathered into one."

    But in the New Testament "the whole church" is always used to refer to a local church. Then why do they use the expression "the whole church" to mean all the elect? Where is their Scriptural authority for doing so?

    I shall prove what I have said. "If therefore the whole church come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?" (I Cor. 14:23).

    The whole church here could be assembled into one place.

    The meaning is the whole membership of the Corinthian church. Note Romans 16:23: "Gaius mine host, and of the whole church, saluteth you."

    This is the church which met in Gaius' house, the church which could salute the Roman Christians.

    The same usage can be seen in Acts 15:22 "Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church."

    The "whole church," in this verse is the church at Jerusalem.

    In Search of the Universal Invisible Church - Baptist Because
     
  20. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    All the saved in heaven could be called that. But here on earth the "one body" is made of visible saved persons. Whether they properly belong to a local New Testament church or not.
     
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