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The Book of Romans

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Claudia_T, May 24, 2006.

  1. J. Jump

    J. Jump New Member

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    But just because someone takes an originally true teaching and misapplies it or takes it into the wrong direction doesn't make the original teaching incorrect.

    The Bible clearly teaches that Christians are supposed to have works after their salvation. Those works can not come out of the flesh. They must come out of the Spirit. We must die to self and allow the Spirit to control us. And that's a daily decision the person has to make.
     
  2. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    I'm not arguing against that point; I'm saying we must be careful with it, because it is easily misunderstood and often gets misapplied, at least in practice if not in theory.
     
  3. J. Jump

    J. Jump New Member

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    I agree with that. We can see evidence of that in some of the threads on this section of the BB unfortunately :(
     
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Time to "Define terms".

    The LAW says "LOVE the Lord your God with all your heart" Deut 6:5 and "LOVE your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18.

    Now lets take your term "trusting in the LAW" -- do you mean "anyone who does not boldly transgress and ignore the Law" is lost??

    Do you mean "anyone who rejects the Savior and then supposes they can keep-the-Law-to-get-saved?" when you say "trusts the Law"??

    Do you mean "anyone who chooses to honor God's Commandments (Rev 12, 14, John 14:15) as a Christian is lost"??

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  5. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    I meant just what I said. Anyone trusting in the Law. I didn't say keeping the Law. If I wanted to imply that, I would have said it. Still, those who put a lot of focus on the Law, even if thay add Christ to it, while I'm not saying the're lost, they should be careful that they're not in fact trusting in it, especially if they spend a lot of their time judging others.
     
  6. Briguy

    Briguy <img src =/briguy.gif>

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    J. Jump said:

    Brian let me ask you a question. Since all saved folks are walking in the Spirit according to you, does that mean the entire church body will be the bride of Christ?

    Hi J. Jump, if by entire church body you mean the "Body of Christ" then the answer is, yes. If you mean all those who attend a church on Sunday, then the answer is, no. Obviously there are many who attend churches that are not part of the "Elect". They attend services but are not "saved". In John 17 you will see how the "elect" or "saved" are actually a gift from the Father to the Son. Please don't think I am too wacky for saying that. At first reading it sounds like it is something believed by just a few cult members or something but it is part of a larger doctrine that most of us believe, though we may vary slightly on exact application.

    Sorry for the delay in this post,

    Brian
     
  7. J. Jump

    J. Jump New Member

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    Brian the Bible doesn't teach that the entire church body, which as you say is the body of Christ, will make up the bride of Christ. Therefore not all saved people walk by the Spirit, because if all saved people walked by the Spirit then they would all be included in the bride.

    Also if all Christians walked in the Spirit then why would their need to be a judgment seat of Christ where works whether good or bad will be tried? If all the works were good works, which is what would happen if we all walked in the Spirit all the time, there would be no need.

    My point in asking the question is that the conclusion that one has to draw at the end of all saved people walk in the Spirit all the time will cause one to violate other Scripture in the process. Therefore it is an imposibility for someone to walk in the Spirit 100% of the time.

    When we commit a sin we are not walking in the Spirit, but rather walking in the flesh.
     
  8. Briguy

    Briguy <img src =/briguy.gif>

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    OK, lets do this. You provide the scriptual evidence of the "bride" being different then the "Body of Christ" and I will respond to that. I need to know where you are coming from before I respond.

    Thanks for the healthy debate!

    In Christ,
    Brian
     
  9. J. Jump

    J. Jump New Member

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    You can see this picture at least twice in the OT in both the story of Adam and Eve and then in the story of Isaac and Rebekah.

    First in Adam and Eve. Christ is the second Adam and the first Adam is a type of Christ. So Adam's bride came out of his body, but was not his entire body, it was just his rib (part of his body). So Christ's bride will be part of His body, not the entire body. The church is the body of Christ, therefore only part of the church will make up the bride.

    Abraham sent his servant back to Abraham's family and said find a bride for my son, but don't go to anyone outside of the family. Rebekah was a part of the family and she eventually became Isaac's bride, but it wasn't all of Abraham's family it was only part of Abraham's family.

    This picture is seen throughout the NT with a great number of parables that show us that not all servants are faithful servants. A man that puts his hand to the plow and then looks back is not fit for the kingdom. Those who overcome will rule, etc.
     
  10. Briguy

    Briguy <img src =/briguy.gif>

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    Hi J.Jump, so what we have is a scriptual concept, not any particular verses to talk about. Your OT examples, especially the second one seem a far stretch to me. Even with Adam and Eve you seem to be pulling out meaning that just isn't there. You draw a conclusion beccause of a pre-conceived concept, not a Truth. Yes, Jesus is likened to Adam. Yes, Eve came out of Adam. That does not conclude that part of Adam = Eve is the same as only some believers will go to Heaven. You are trying too hard to make a Truth out of something that isn't there. Adam was created a sinless man, he was the first in that state. Jesus was also born sinless and remained sinless. Jesus was simply like Adam in that way. After that we know that Adam brought destruction upon mankind and Jeus restored man's potential relationship with God. They are very different in that respect. Eve's purpose was to be Adam's helper, not to worship Adam. The bride was created to give glory to the Father, to worship and adore Him, to do His will, to do good works that give the Glory back to God, etc... That is very different the what Eve was there fore. The point is you just can't draw a conclusion like you did without more to go on.

    I'll address the parables you mentioned a little later. You could post the verses from the parables you think show the point you have about the bride, if you want.

    In Christ,
    Brian
     
  11. J. Jump

    J. Jump New Member

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    I didn't quote where those Scriptures where, becuase I figured you knew where they were. And yes the OT doesn't come right out and say it. The OT is a picture of future truth.

    How are they a stretch. The Bible is either true or it's false. There's no inbetween. Either these are correct views or they are not. There can't be any stretching :)

    No it's just that you don't see it as Truth. I really don't understand why everyone says that something is not Truth because they don't believe it. You see that almost everyday here in this section of the board. Just because you don't see it or don't believe it doesn't mean it's not Truth. And the same goes for me as well. The Bible only contains Truth, so it is our duty to seek after that Truth and then believe it when it is revealed to us.

    Here's part of the problem. Jesus wasn't likened to Adam. The Bible says Adam is a type of Christ. That means you can draw direct comparisons between the two.

    You are absolutely right. And that's not what I said. I said only some believers will become the bride. That doesn't mean only some believers will go to heaven.

    Being part of the bride determines whether or not one will rule and reign with Christ during the 1,000-year kingdom that is coming. The ones that are not a part of the bride, but still a part of the body will still spend eternity with God (although it will not be in heaven as the vast majority of Christendom has come to believe, but that's a side note :))

    Again it is clearly there.

    Adam had to be put to sleep in order that his bride could be brought forth. Sleep is referred sometimes as death. Christ had to die in order that his bride could be brought forth.

    Adam partook of sin so that his bride might be redeemed. Christ became sin so that His bride (as well as others) could be redeemed.

    Eve came out of Adam's body. So Christ's bride will come out of His body.

    Yes they are different in that respect.

    And the bride will help Christ rule and reign during that 1,000-year period, so there is similarity there. Again just because there are differences doesn't negate the other side.

    And there's plenty to go on. I gave you another OT story that shares the same concept. You can see the same concept in the book of Ruth as well. Plus there is a number of passages that deal with this in the NT.

    Brian if you are looking for specific verses that say not all believers will be part of the bride they are not there. God didn't spell out everything in a nice neat box for us. That's another problem with Christendom they think that all God's Truth lies on the surface, when in fact the meat and strong meat of the Word is down deep and must be mined as if it were gold.

    But the parables show us that there are faithful and unfaithful servants. God is not going to allow an unfaithful servant to be part of His Son's bride. You can also see this picture in the story of the guest that was not properly dressed at the wedding feast. That guest was kicked out because he was not part of the bride.

    You can see this truth in the NT epistles. Paul tells us that we are to run the race of faith and that we are to finish the race and cross the finish line. We are told to work out our salvation. We are told to stand firm. We are told to overcome.

    So what you are saying is that I don't have to run the race. I don't have to finish the race. I don't have to cross the finish line. I don't have to work out my salvation. I don't have to stand firm. And I don't have to overcome. And even though I am rebellious and disobedient I will still be part of the bride. That's just not going to happen as much as Christendom wants to believe that.
     
  12. Briguy

    Briguy <img src =/briguy.gif>

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    Hi J. Jump,

    I like the passion you have for what you believe. I disagree with you but respect your passion.

    Couple things, you wrote:

    ""God is not going to allow an unfaithful servant to be part of His Son's bride.""

    Do you realize that you have just told God what He is going to do. God, who measures time by light years, not hours or even years. God, who created a universe so big that we haven't even begun to see the whole thing yet. The very God that created us, you now tell what He will do. That is not a good thing to do. His ways are not our ways.

    Secondly, I didn't know you were seperating the bride from the body. No, there will be no difference between the two. You seem to say there is a ruling class in Heaven and a worshipping class. The Bible is clear that all will bow and worhip God. None besides God will be reverenced in Heaven. God meaning Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We are told that the believers will reign with Christ and that we will even judge the angels. To seperate the Body from the Bride takes more then digging into the meat of the word, it takes creative thining. What I mean by that is you have a doctrine and you try to make scripture fit that doctrine. If I am honest I may do that from time to time as well.

    You list the Biblical cliche's like "run the race", "stand firm", etc... as a proof that one must be a part whether they are the "bride" or not. Because you seperate the Body from the bride it gives you a fall back position. You can say that the one who is struggling in their Christian walk will be in Heaven but not reign with Christ. Here is the problem. We are told that God will remember our sins no more. There are no tears or sorrow in Heaven. If we are not accepted as the bride, that would bring sorrow, but more importantly it would mean that God held some of our works against us, and that the blood of Jesus was not powerful enough to wipe away ALL the believers sins. That is the bottom line to a lot of what we are discussing here. You believe that our works will play a role in our position in Heaven and maybe in our getting into Heaven at all. Which means are works are done to pleas God. I believe that our works our done to draw others to God and to show God's Glory to others. Our works justify us before men, our light shines before men. we work to show God for who He is and that is the reason why running the race is so very importanat. Not because it will make us a ruling class in heaven.

    more later,
    In Christ,
    Brian
     
  13. J. Jump

    J. Jump New Member

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    Not at all. Who am I to tell God anything? I am nobody. I'm just merely repeating what God has said. God is not going to let an unfaithful servant marry His son, not because J. Jump said so, but because that is what He has revealed to us.

    Can you provide Scripture for that? To date no one has been able to show that the church and the bride are one. By the way you'll need to show it in the NT and the OT.

    There will be those that rule and reign with Christ, but don't read into it that we become some sort of little gods ourselves, because that is not the case. We will still be the creation, but just in a position that God originally intended for man to be in.

    We were originally created to be the rulers over the earth. We just never realized that position and fell before we took the reigns.

    We will all continue to worship the One and Only God (Father, Son and Spirit). No one will be worshipping the bride.

    AMEN!!

    Scripture?

    That's what everyone says when they don't want to study the issue out. Either the picture is there or it's not. There's nothing creative about it. The Bible says Adam is a type of Christ. Do you think it is mere coincidence that the stories line up like they do? Of course not. It was planned by God for a purpose.

    OT Scriptures point to Christ, He even told us so Himself in a couple of different places. The one that comes to mind right off the bat is His discussion with the two on the road to Emaus.

    Not sure what this means. These aren't Biblical cliche's. The Bible doesn't contain stuff that's just for fluff. We are told that we are to live by every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.

    There is life in the Words of the Bible if we will just believe them. If we are told to run the race, stand firm and overcome then that is what we must do. Those phrases aren't in there for just kicks and giggles.

    It's not a fall back position, becuase one will not want to be a part of the body that doesn't end up as the bride. It's not going to be a fun-filled 1,000 years, according to Scripture.

    Now are they eternally secure. Yes. But again that's not because I say so, that's because the Bible says so. Do you believe in eternal security?

    Oh the blood of Christ is plenty powerful enough alright!! The fact of the matter is that there are Christians that don't continue to confess their sins so that God can forgive them. Corinthians tells us that God will not be mocked what a man sows he will reap. If he sows in the flesh he will reap corruption. If he sows in the Spirit he will reap life.

    The misconception for what seems to be a lot of Christendom is that God forgives all our sin past, present and future at the time of salvation by grace through faith. That is not Biblical. Our past sins are forgiven, but sins committed after salvation are not forgiven and must be dealt with on a continual basis (I John 1:9).

    By the way being a part of the bride has nothing to do with eternity (which is what I am assuming you mean by heaven). Being a part of the bride is in relation to the 1,000-year reign of Christ.

    Not our role in heaven, but our role in the 1,000-year reign of Christ. And it has nothing to do with eternity.

    Brian what you and I believe is irrelevant. What does the Bible say? That's the only thing that matters. Now God does work through us to reach other people that is true, but it's only true if we allow Him to work through us.

    Good works are not a guarantee in a Christian's life (Ephesians 2:10)

    Scripture?

    I don't think that is the context of running the race at all.

    I Corinthians 9:24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.

    We are clearly shown here that at the end of the race is a prize. What is the prize? Ruling and reigning with Christ.

    Also if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.

    We can't win if we are not obedient, faithful and overcomers.
     
  14. Briguy

    Briguy <img src =/briguy.gif>

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    J, Jump, you used a verse from each of the following sets of verses to try to say that Jesus was a type of Adam, that somehow if Adam's bride was made from only a part of him that Jesus will have a bride that is only a part of believers. Read the entire context. There is much more made of the differences of Jesus and Adam then there is the likeness. Is Jesus truly a type of anyone who was here before?, No, we draw comparisons with Melcheisidec (sp? - no time to look up right now) and with Adam but we can't say that because they did something or something happened to them, the same will be of Jesus. In Adam's case we are told here that Adam caused us to be enemies of God but in Jesus we can be restored to a relationship with God. Both sets of verses show the distinction between Adam and Jesus. Jesus is of Spirit, where Adam is from the earth. Adam is death, Jesus is life, and on and on it goes throughout both sets of verses. We just can't draw the conclusion you want from these verses and you can't isolate a verse of scripture and make a doctrine out of it. Theses verses speak for themselves. I am tempted to disect them but they stand alone so well that seems like it is not really needed here.
    In Christ,
    Brian
    Romans 5
    [10] For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
    [11] And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
    [12] Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
    [13] (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
    [14] Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
    [15] But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
    [16] And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
    [17] For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
    [18] Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
    [19] For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
    [20] Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
    [21] That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

    ! cor 15
    42] So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
    [43] It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
    [44] It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
    [45] And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
    [46] Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
    [47] The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
    [48] As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
    [49] And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
    [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
    [51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    [52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

     
  15. Briguy

    Briguy <img src =/briguy.gif>

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    Hi J. Jump, Let me just start by discussing scripture you quoted. You related running the race here in 1 Cor 9 to having to win to be part of the bride. Below I included the context verses for what Paul was talking about. This is clearly about sharing the gospel (vs. 18). Paul uses the race analogy to make a point. We should be as motivated to the gospel as we are to win a race that we enter. Being in the race, we should strive to win, meaning we should share the gospel with the same intensity that we would if we were trying to win a race. The prize here is the saving of souls (vs. 22). Through these verses we see Paul saying that he needed to be a certain way to certain people. He did his best in all the different circumstances he was in. He likens his effort to running a race. Paul says as long as he is in the race, he will strive to win (ie do his very best to save souls). Paul is just comparing the two things and says that the winner of an earthly race receives a corruptible crown but when a soul is saved he wins a incoruptible crown. These verses are just chalked full of meaning and pretty clear when read in context. I am guressing very few would think they mean what you say.
    1 cor. 9
    18] What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.
    [19] For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
    [20] And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
    [21] To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
    [22] To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
    [23] And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.
    [24] Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
    [25] And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
    [26] I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
    [27] But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

     
  16. J. Jump

    J. Jump New Member

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    Brian either Adam is a type or he is not. If he is, which the Bible says he is, then we must treat him in that light. Once again do you think it just ironic coincidence that there are similarities? Granted there are also 180-degree differences, but that doesn't negate the fact that Adam is a type.

    Here is what one lexicon defined as a type: of a type i.e. a person or thing prefiguring a future (Messianic) person or thing

    A type is also considered a pattern.

    Eve was already in Adam when Adam was created she just wasn't taken out yet. In Genesis chapter 1 is said let us make man in our own image and let "them" have dominion. Then Adam was created.

    The them wasn't a bunch of men, but Adam with Eve already inside of him. Together man and woman were to rule the earth as one.

    This is the easiest thing in the world to see. I don't think it could be any more plain.

    By the way you have not given Scriptural evidence that the church and the bride are one in the same.

    As to running the race you basically answered yourself. Paul was spreading the gospel. What is the gospel? Well it is the good news. Most people equate gospel with just the sharing of the salvation by grace through faith message, but that is not the complete gospel. That is only a portion of the gospel message.

    There is good news to a man dead in his trespasses and sin, and that is the message that Jesus died for you and shed His blood for you to pay the penalty for your sin. Believe that and you will be saved.

    There is also good news to the saved individual. That is that Christ rose again and wants to be Lord of your life. And if you will let Him be Lord of your life then there is an inheritance that awaits you. That inheritance is ruling with Christ in His coming kingdom.

    Now I know that there is not a lot of detail in that, but that's the basic message. So what Paul is talking about is sharing this gospel message that as you indicate saves the soul. This gospel message was being shared with believers so that their souls could be saved. And their souls being saved has to do with becoming a part of the bride.

    You have to compare Scripture with Scripture to get the entire picture of what is going on. Paul is not only talking about preaching the gospel, but in the last verse it talks about beating his body into submission so that he will not be a castaway even though he preaches the gospel to others.

    That's talking about living a faithful life and being an overcomer, which all ties into being a part of the bride.

    Bottom line is you can believe this or not, but you have yet to show any Biblical evidence that supports the idea that the church and the bride are one in the same.
     
  17. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory New Member

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    Question: Why do you have to overcome to receive a gift that is absolutely free?

    As to types:

    THE STUDY OF TYPES

    [1 Corinthians 10:11] The OT has been called, “The Neglected Continent of the Bible.” Many know the OT for just a few favorite chapters. Others think of it only as giving a few biographical sketches. But few realize that for every New Testament doctrine, there is a type in the Old Testament. Historical events took place as recorded in the OT in order to illustrate, typify, or symbolize NT truths.

    The OT contains the object lesson, and the NT contains the explanation of that object lesson. Proverbs 25:2 says, “It is the glory of God to conceal a thing; but the glory of kings is to search out a matter.” The OT is God's picture book; His object lessons; His building blocks. In the NT these blocks are put together and they always spell out or point to some phase of the person or work of the Lord Jesus Christ and our relation to Him. The coats of skin with which God covered Adam and Eve; the sacrifices of Cain and Abel; the names of the Old Testament characters; Noah's Ark; Egypt; Pharaoh; the ten plagues; the Passover; the Red Sea; the wilderness; the manna; the Jordan River; the land of promise, etc. — All of these are types and are written for our admonition.

    Our Lord reproved the disciples on the road to Emmaus as “fools and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets had spoken.” The prophets spoke in type, symbol, materials, colors, animals, buildings, persons, events, and in divers manners concerning Christ. Just think for one minute — everything in the Tabernacle: the shape, materials, colors — all that was in the Tabernacle portrays something about Christ and His ministry and work.

    In the Book of [Hebrews 5:10, 11], the Spirit of the Lord rebukes Christians very sharply for their imperfect knowledge of Melchizedek as a type of Christ in His coming Kingdom, when He shall be the Prince of peace and King of kings; thus beyond any shadow of doubt, it is the duty and privilege of Christians, with the help of the Holy Spirit of God, to search into the types of the Scripture and come to a correct understanding of them. In fact, the types of Scripture — especially those relating to Christ's return, rule, judgment, kingdom, and the part Christians may have in this kingdom, and kindred subjects — are called by the Spirit of the Lord, the meat of the Word. Christians are urged to leave the milk of the Word, the elementary things pertaining to salvation, and to go on to maturity by feeding on the meat, that is, the types of the Word of Righteousness — the OT.

    Though the word “type” does not occur in the KJV, it does occur in the Greek text. In 1 Corinthians 10:6-11, we have the word tupoi from the word tupos, from which comes our English word type. In Hebrews 9:24 and 1 Peter 3:21, we have the words antitupa and antitupon from which comes our word antitype. A type is a divine illustration of some truth or doctrine, which is foreshadowed. For instance, the Passover lamb and its characteristics (blood — shedding, application of the blood on the doorposts and lintel, which brought deliverance to the firstborn of Israel) all these are types of the Lord Jesus Christ. Again, Egypt is a type of the world from which we are delivered. The wilderness is a type of our pilgrimage from the time of salvation until we enter the Land Flowing With Milk and Honey. Canaan is a type of the Millennial land and the reign of Christ and His saints who qualify to reign with Him.
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    1 Cor 9 "buffet my body and make it my slave" is not another way of saying "preach the gospel to as many people as I can".

    It literally refers to self discipline.

    When Paul speaks of the "benefits" of the Gospel in 1Cor 9 for the one who "partakes" it is as Paul says "Salvation" - it is to be "SAVED".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
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