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The great city

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Gerad, Aug 29, 2005.

  1. Gerad

    Gerad New Member

    Aug 4, 2005
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    Rev.18:24 - "In her (the great city-17:18) was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth."

    Matt.23:35-36 - "That upon you (Jerusalem) may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth..All these things shall come upon THIS generation...Oh Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets.."

    It's time for another poll, guys and galls. What is the identity of "the great city" of Rev.17-18? According to Jesus, it could only be JERUSALEM. Also, the same "great city" is mentioned in the same book of Revelation in chapter eleven and verse 8, where it says that this city was "where our Lord was crucified". Consistency is a fine hermeneutical principle!

    Let'r rip...Jerusalem???? In my opinion, it could be no other!

    Rome?? Not one prophet ever perished at Rome!

    Rebuilt Babylon?? _ Not one prophet ever perished at Babylon, much less "rebuilt Babylon!

    The Catholic Church?? - Not one prophet ever perished at the hands of the Catholic church. Biblical prophets, guys. Jesus wwasn't killed at Jerusalem. Consistency, guys, consistency.

    Now, this issue of the identity of the great city is HUGE. Why?? Because, coupled with the IMMINENCY STATEMENTS of Revelation - all seven of them - it points to the first century destruction of Jerusalem. It's actually a forced conclusion. Quite plain. Indeed, Revelation's parallel, the Olivet Discourse, concerns Jerusalem and the Temple's destruction. Allusions to the Temple, priesthood, and Jerusalem abound in Rev.17-18. To be honest, I don't know how much plainer the language of Revelation 17-18 could be. Every bit of it is straight out of the Old Testament and the Olivet Discourse concerning JERUSALEM. Preterism stands on solid ground.

    Jesus never promised to return "to the earth" to sit on a big chair in Jerusalem.

    I will tally the votes on the identity of the great city and announce the winner tonight.
  2. Bro Tony

    Bro Tony New Member

    Jan 27, 2004
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    Why would you hold that the city mentioned in Revelation 17 and the city mentioned in Revelation 18 are the same city? The last verse of Revelation 17 says, "And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth."

    When and how does this have anything to do with Jerusalem? You might have a case for the city of Chapter 18 being Jerusalem, maybe or maybe not. But the city of Chapter 17 does not describe Jerusalem.

    Bro Tony
  3. Gerad

    Gerad New Member

    Aug 4, 2005
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    "Rulers of the land (ge)" is a better translation for us English speaking Westerners in 2005. Rulers of the holy land. Judaea had some ten provinces with rulers over them, and Jerusalem, being the capital, ruled the land. It was an historical look at Jerusalem, the great city. Jerusalem, the Bible tells us, also played the "harlot" or whore - the same whore the prophets wrote about (read Hosea, Ez.16,23, Jeremiah, etc..). You have to plug yourself into the TIMEFRAME that Revelation was written, which was sometime "shortly" before 70 A.D., when Jerusalem, the whore, was destroyed, exactly as Jesus predicted.
  4. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator

    Jun 30, 2000
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    No, not what it says. It is a Hebrew phrase meaning ALL the kings of ALL the earth. 24 times it is used. Can't change it in one place and say it means only those in "the holy land". Where is THAT "holy land" phrase coming from? Not in the Bible.

    No, not what it says. Judea WAS one of the provinces of Rome and it's capital and center was Caesarea Maritime, not Jerusalem. Jerusalem was a center under Herod the Great, but lost its preeminence and was a backcountry city visited only once a year by the Roman Governor (at the festering time of rebellion, the Passover) for a few weeks, then he went back to his capital at Caesarea.

    No, that's the OPPOSITE of what to do. Since we are searching for WHEN these events happen, we look at the entire package of events and THEN set up the timeframe. We don't start out speculating and then try to make Scripture fit.

    When did Jesus come back? Can't stop arbitrarily at Rev 17-18, but continue on to 19:11ff and see Jesus returning, his armies fighting the 100,000,000 man army of the kings of the world. Is THAT passed?

    And Rev 20 when Satan is bound and deceives the world no more. When did THAT happen?

    And Rev 21 when the world/heavens are made new. Wow. I missed that in the history books too.

    Preterism is a doctrine of foolish people who deny the coming of our Lord and the kingdom of our God.
  5. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator

    Jun 30, 2000
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    BTW, Gerad, if you are NOT an active member of a Baptist church and cannot post in this thread, give me a shout. I will move this to the "All Christian" forum so you may participate.
  6. Bro Tony

    Bro Tony New Member

    Jan 27, 2004
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    Ditto to what Dr Bob wrote, I was going to respond personally, but there is no need to repeat what has been said.

    Bro Tony
  7. Gerad

    Gerad New Member

    Aug 4, 2005
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    The Greek word "ge" is translated "land" some 42 times. This means a more restricted meaning compared to all of planet earth. Earth works fine too if understood the way a Jew used exaggerated speek. Lastly, Revelation was given in signified language - signs, symbols and dark speeches (an O.T. word).

    We keep things in context, or the stated timeframe. That is the only way to approach eschatology. Else, it's newspaper eisegesus, which is what futurism has been for the last 2000 years. Wrong generation all you futurists!

    The context of Revelation is the destruction of earthly Jerusalem and the exaltation of the New Jerusalem. Rulers of the earth/land has to be kept in that context. Jerusalem was supreme over the provinces, tribal divisions, cities, princes, etc., etc., of Israel, period. Israel has many "rulers" within it's borders. In Acts 4:25-26, the disciples quote Psalm 2:1-2, which conerns "the kings of the earth" and "the rulers", and applied it to what happened in Judaea to Jesus Christ, God's anointed. Then, in verse 27, those expressions are said to have referred exclusively to Herod, Pontius Pilate, the Gentiles, and the people of Israel - all within the boder of Judaea. Psalm 2:1-2 was fulfilled in the first century, contrasted to the futuristic teaching of all the kings of the earth one day fighting against Jesus Christ!!!!!!!!
  8. elijah_lives

    elijah_lives New Member

    Aug 12, 2005
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    I believe that the "great city" is a type that represented Rome at the time, but also applies to other times, including now.

    I think the "great city which reigneth over the kings of the earth" (Rev 17:18) is New York City, that the judgement against Babylon in Rev 18:8 ("Therefore her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall utterly be burned with fire") is our judgement, and that the time is now.

    We are Babylon.
  9. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Apr 19, 2002
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    Explain why it must be the entire world Bob.

    1. arable land
    2. the ground, the earth as a standing place
    3. the main land as opposed to the sea or water
    4. the earth as a whole
    a.the earth as opposed to the heavens
    b.the inhabited earth, the abode of men and animals

    5.a country, land enclosed within fixed boundaries, a tract of land, territory, region

    That’s right, you look at scripture through the 21st century eyes of Jack Van Impe and Hal Lindsey.

    Despite the fact that the Bible clearly lays out the “when”?
    Just ignore words like “near”, “soon” and “at hand” if it doesn’t fit your view. I'm sure Tony can tell us how these words don't really mean what they say.

    That is exactly what dispies do. You don't need to leave this board to see this.

    Where exactly is this 100,000,000 man army found in scripture?

    Of course you missed it, you are looking through Jack Van Impe eyes again. Spurgeon, Owen, etc.. didn’t miss it.

    Educate yourself Bob. It is ignorance like this that led me out of the dispie view. Preterism denies neither of these things. If you don’t believe the Kingdom has come, then you believe Daniel, John and Jesus were wrong.
    Be careful who you call “foolish”, you might find yourself on the receiving end.

    You see Bob. Elijah-Lives proves my point. I can make a scriptural case for Jerusalem but can you make one for America? When you took your history Bob, did you run across the part that says NYC rules the world? I’ll be kind and not call him a “fool”, just misguided by teachers who are foolish and ignorant of the Old Testament.

    Perhaps Elijah-Lives would be interested in Malachi 4:5-6 and Matt. 11:13-14 and Luke 1:16-17.
  10. elijah_lives

    elijah_lives New Member

    Aug 12, 2005
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    Not sure I completely understood the thrust of your last post, but I was interested in the scripture you pointed to.
  11. Kamoroso

    Kamoroso New Member

    Feb 17, 2003
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    Revelation 14 8And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

    In order to understand this angel’s message, we will have to first know who Babylon is, and what the wine of her fornication is, that all nations are made to drink. We know that the angel cannot be referring to the literal nation of Babylon, it ceased to exist long before the above message was given to the apostle John. So we must find out who, or what, this Babylon represents. Let us examine the scriptures for more details.

    Revelation 16 17And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. 18And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. 19And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. 20And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
    Revelation 17
    1And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will show unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: 2With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. 3So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. 4And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: 5And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

    In chapter sixteen, we see that Babylon is around in the end to receive the judgment of God. Her judgment is connected with the judgment of the world. In verse nineteen, we see that she is that great city, which is connected to the cities of the nations, which will all fall in the judgment of great Babylon. Babylon then, is the great city, and leader of a planet in rebellion against God, and His people.

    Chapter seventeen reveals more traits with which to identify Babylon. She is the Mother of Harlots and abominations of the earth. Being a mother, she must have children. The kings of the earth commit fornication with her. She has also made the inhabitance of the earth drunk with the wine of her fornication. Her cup, which no doubt contains the wine, is full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication. Lastly, she herself is drunk with the blood of the saints, and the martyrs of Jesus. That is to say, she is responsible for the persecution, and murder of God’s people on earth.

    That’s a lot of identifying marks. Let’s take a look at some of them. We’ll start with the fact that Babylon is the Mother of Harlots. What does a harlot represent in the scriptures?

    Jer 3:8-9 8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
    9 And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.

    Ezek 16:14-15 14 And thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty: for it was perfect through my comeliness, which I had put upon thee, saith the Lord GOD.
    15 But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was.

    Ezek 16:28-29 28 Thou hast played the whore also with the Assyrians, because thou wast unsatiable; yea, thou hast played the harlot with them, and yet couldest not be satisfied.
    29 Thou hast moreover multiplied thy fornication in the land of Canaan unto Chaldea; and yet thou wast not satisfied herewith.

    Hosea 4:15 15 Though thou, Israel, play the harlot, yet let not Judah offend; and come not ye unto Gilgal, neither go ye up to Bethaven, nor swear, The LORD liveth.

    The nation of Israel was referred to as a harlot by God, when she had illicit relationships with the kings, or nations around her, and their gods. That is to say, when she trusted in, and relied upon the power of, other nations, and their gods, over the true God of heaven and earth. The same no doubt will hold true for those who now claim to be God’s people, but have illicit relationships with the nations of this earth, and their gods. That is to say, with those who claim to be Christians, but are involved in the same.

    The writer contends that the great city we are discussing is none other than Rome, and the harlot, is none other than the Church of Rome. For she is the original form of apostate Christianity, that first abandoned the power of the Holy Spirit, in favor of the power of the state. She leaned on the latter, because she had already lost the former. Through compromise, and mixing pagan practices with the true religion, which is an abomination to God, she lost the power of the Holy Spirit, and thus strove for the power of the state.

    It is not such a simple thing as to say that the Church of Rome was that apostate Christian institution which first sought the power of the state, over the power of the Holy Spirit. Moreover, she is the result of apostate Christianity seeking the power of the state, because she had lost the power of the Holy Spirit. Among the various apostate Christian entities of the day, she is the one who gained the favor of the state, to the furtherance of her ends. The struggle between these various groups of apostate Christians, requires to much detail to address. The observation of which, would convince any true Christian, of their fallen state. The purpose of the following is to establish the fact of her relations, and empowerment, with, and by the kings of this earth.

    In any case, Constantine, the first supposed Christian emperor of the Roman empire, was the first to give apostate Christianity the power of the state. He did thus, by enacting the first Sunday law. Observe the following.

    The text of Constantine's Sunday Law of 321 A.D. is :
    "One the venerable day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country however persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits because it often happens that another day is not suitable for gain-sowing or vine planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost. (Given the 7th day of March, Crispus and Constantine being consuls each of them the second time." Codex Justinianus, lib. 3, tit. 12, 3; translated in History of the Christian Church, Philip Schaff, D.D., (7-vol.ed.) Vol. III, p.380. New York, 1884

    Dr. A.Chr. Bang says regarding this Law :
    "This Sunday law constituted no real favoratism to Christianity..... It is evident from all his statuatory provisions that the Emperor during the time 313-323 with full consciousness has sought the realisation of his religeous aim: the amalgamation of heathenism and Christianity." Kirken og Romerstaten (The Church and the Roman State) p.256. Christiania, 1879

    In A.D. 321, to please the bishops of the Catholic Church, he issued an
    edict commanding judges, townspeople, and mechanics to rest on Sunday.
    Yet in this also his paganism was still manifest, as the edict required rest on
    "the venerable day of the sun," and "enjoined the observance, or rather
    forbade the public desecration, of Sunday, not under the name of
    Sabbatum, or Dies Domini, but under its old astrological and heathen title,
    Dies Solis , familiar to all his subjects, so that the law was as applicable to
    the worshipers of Hercules, Apollo, and Mithras, as to the Christians."
    (History of the Christian Church, Vol. 3, sec. 75, par. 5.-Schaff.) ( The Great Empires of Prophecy by Alonzo Jones page 391 )

    In the above quotes, we see some of the identifying marks of Babylon being fulfilled. The establishment of the first Sunday law came about through the illicit relationship of those who claimed to be God’s people, with the kings of the earth, and the false religious practices of the pagan religions of the nations of these kings. In Constantine, we find the first Emperor of Rome to begin committing fornication with the Mother of Harlots, that is Babylon. Let’s look at some more from A.T. Jones.

    Then came Constantine, the best imperial representative of the new
    paganism, and he most devout worshiper of the sun as the supreme and
    universal deity,
    with the avowed purpose, as expressed in his own words,
    "First to bring the diverse judgments formed by all nations respecting the
    Deity to a condition, as it were, of settled uniformity." In Constantine the
    new paganism met its ideal, and the New Platonism – the apostate,
    paganized, sun-worshiping form of Christianity
    met its long-wished-for
    instrument. In him the two streams met. In him the aspiration of
    Elagabalus, the hope of Ammonius Saccas and Clement, of Plotinus and
    Origen,and the ambition of the perverse-minded, self-exalted bishops,
    were all realized and accomplished - a new, imperial, and universal
    religion was created.
    Therefore, "the reign of Constantine the Great forms one of the epochs
    in the history of the world. It is the era of the dissolution of the Roman
    Empire; the commencement, or rather consolidation, of a kind of Eastern
    despotism, with a new capital, a new patriciate, a new constitution, a new
    financial system, a new, though as yet imperfect, jurisprudence, and, finally,
    a new religion." ( Milman - History of Christianity, book 3, chap. 1, par. 1 )
    The epoch thus formed was the epoch of the papacy; and the new
    religion thus created was the PAPAL RELIGION.
    ( The Great Empires of Prophecy by Alonzo Jones page 361 )

    By instituting the first Sunday laws, Constantine gave the Church of Rome the power of the state. For this law commanded all, those in, and out of the faith, to observe this apostate Christian institution. This was the beginning of the realization of the Church of Rome’s purpose in having illicit relationships with the kings of the earth. By these relations, she hoped to establish herself in a position of power above all others. Though she claims to have been established by Christ, through the first Pope, Peter, she was really established through the power of the kings of this earth. It was these with whom she committed spiritual adultery, and fornication. Let’s look at some more historical facts confirming these truths found in the book The Two Republics, by A. T. Jones.

    “The Catholic Church demanded assistance in her ambitious aim to make
    her power and authority absolute over all; and for Constantine’s purposes
    it was essential that the church should be a unit. These two considerations
    combined to produce results both immediate and remote, that proved a
    curse to the time then present and to ages to follow. The immediate result
    was that Constantine had no sooner compassed the destruction of Licinius
    in A.D. 323, than he issued an edict against the Novatians, Valentinians,
    Marcionites, Paulians, Cataphrygians, and “all who devised and supported
    heresies by means of private assemblies,” denouncing them and their
    heresies, and commanding them all to enter the Catholic Church. The edict
    runs as follows: —

    “Victor Constantinus Maximus Augustus, to the heretics:
    Understand now, by this present statute, ye Novatians,
    Valentinians, Marcionites, Paulians, ye who are called
    Cataphrygians, and all ye who devise and support heresies by
    means of your private assemblies, with what a tissue of falsehood
    and vanity, with what destructive and venomous errors, your
    doctrines are inseparably interwoven; so that through you the
    healthy soul is stricken with disease, and the living becomes the prey
    of everlasting death. Ye haters and enemies of truth and life, in
    league with destruction: All your counsels are opposed to the truth,
    but familiar with deeds of baseness; fit subjects for the fabulous
    follies of the stage: and by these ye frame falsehoods, oppress the
    innocent, and withhold the light from them that believe. Ever
    trespassing under the mask of godliness, ye fill all things with
    defilement: ye pierce the pure and guileless conscience with deadly
    wounds, while ye withdraw, one may almost say, the very light of
    day from the eyes of men. But why should I particularize, when to
    speak of your criminality as it deserves, demands more time and
    leisure than I can give? For so long and unmeasured is the
    catalogue of your offenses, so hateful and altogether atrocious are
    they, that a single day would not suffice to recount them all. And
    indeed it is well to turn one’s ears and eyes from such a subject, lest
    by a description of each particular evil, the pure sincerity and
    freshness of one’s own faith be impaired. Why then do I still bear
    with such abounding evil; especially since this protracted clemency
    is the cause that some who were sound are become tainted with this
    pestilent disease? Why not at once strike, as it were, at the root of
    so great a mischief by a public manifestation of displeasure?
    “Forasmuch, then, as it is no longer possible to bear with your
    pernicious errors, we give warning by this present statute that none
    of you henceforth presume to assemble yourselves together. We
    have directed, accordingly, that you be deprived of all the houses in
    which you are accustomed to hold your assemblies: and our care in
    this respect extends so far as to forbid the holding of your
    superstitious and senseless meetings, not in public merely, but in
    any private house or place whatsoever. Let those of you, therefore,
    who are desirous of embracing the true and pure religion, take the
    far better course of entering the Catholic Church, and uniting with
    it in holy fellowship,
    whereby you will be enabled to arrive at the
    knowledge of the truth. In any case, the delusions of your perverted
    understandings must entirely cease to mingle with and mar the
    felicity of our present times; I mean the impious and wretched
    doublemindedness of heretics and schismatics. For it is an object
    worthy of that prosperity which we enjoy through the favor of God,
    to endeavor to bring back those who in time past were living in the
    hope of future blessing, from all irregularity and error, to the right
    path, from darkness to light, from vanity to truth, from death to
    salvation. And in order that this remedy may be applied with
    effectual power, we have commanded (as before said), that you be
    positively deprived of every gathering point for your superstitious
    meetings; I mean all the houses of prayer (if such be worthy of the
    name) which belong to heretics, and that these be made over
    without delay to the Catholic Church; that any other places be
    confiscated to the public service, and no facility whatever be left for
    any future gathering; in order that from this day forward none of
    your unlawful assemblies may presume to appear in any public or
    private place. Let this edict be made public.”
    ( Eusebius’s- “Life of Constantine,” book 3, chaps. 64, 65. )

    Some of the penal regulations of this edict “were copied from the edicts of
    Diocletian; and this method of conversion was applauded by the same
    bishops who had felt the hand of oppression, and had pleaded for the rights
    of humanity.” ( Gibbon- “Decline and Fall,” chap. 21, par. 1. )

    As is obvious from the above edict, the establishment of the Church of Rome had nothing to do with the gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To the contrary, she was established through the power of the state, not the power of the Holy Spirit. The emperor that established her power did so for purely political reasons, the establishment of his authority above all civil, or religious entities of the day.

    As the emperor of Rome, Constantine was already the head of all the pagan religions of that empire, and was himself a devout worshipper of the sun. His supposed conversion to Christianity was nothing more than a political ploy to be the head of this new religion also. Thus his purpose was, as already stated, "First to bring the diverse judgments formed by all nations respecting the Deity to a condition, as it were, of settled uniformity." This settled uniformity was to be under his authority, and complete control. Therefore, the establishment of the Church of Rome was brought about by the selfish motives of a pagan emperor who would embrace Christianity as a means of obtaining his goal. Not to mention the selfish motives, and ambitions of apostate Christians who were themselves seeking power, and prestige.

    Apostate Christianity, having entered the stage of the politics of this world, has never ceased to be entangled in the same. She is ever entrenched in the political strife, struggles for supremacy, and unquenchable thirst for power of the same. The Church of Rome is the Mother of all supposed Christian institutions which have become more concerned with the politics of this world, and its struggles for power, than the fulfilling of the gospel commission. “And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.” ( Matt. 24:14 )

    The following are more historical quotes, and facts regarding the establishment, or re-establishment of the Church of Rome’s authority. As a political entity of this world, her authority, and influence have continually, and are continually being challenged by others of the same. The history of her political struggles, and alliances with the kings of this earth, are sufficient proof that she is the Mother Of Harlots, who commits fornication with the kings of the earth. Thus, this identifying mark is fulfilled in her history. Of the many books that could be studied, for a more detailed history of her politics, the following are recommended by the writer. The Great Empires of Prophecy, and The Two Republics, both written by Alonzo Jones.

    Gratian was but the tool of the bishops. Ambrose was at that time bishop
    of Milan, and never was episcopal ambition more arrogantly asserted than
    in that insolent prelate. Soon the mind of the bishop asserted the
    supremacy over that of the boy emperor, and Ambrose “wielded at his will
    the weak and irresolute Gratian.” ( Milman- “History of Christianity,” book 3, chap. 8, par. 28. )

    But above all things else that Gratian did, that which redounded most to the glory of the Catholic Church was his choice of Theodosius as associate emperor. Valens was
    killed in a battle with the Goths, A.D. 378. A stronger hand than that of a
    youth of nineteen was required to hold the reins of government in the East.
    In the establishment of the Catholic Church, the place of Theodosius is
    second only to that of Constantine. About the beginning of the year 380 he
    was baptized by the Catholic bishop of Thessalonica, and immediately
    afterward he issued the following edict: —

    “It is our pleasure that the nations which are governed by our
    clemency and moderation, should steadfastly adhere to the religion
    which was taught by St. Peter to the Romans,
    which faithful
    tradition has preserved, and which is now professed by the pontiff
    Damasus, and by Peter, bishop of Alexandria, a man of apostolic
    holiness. According to the discipline of the apostles, and the
    doctrine of the gospel, let us believe the sole deity of the Father, the
    Son, and the Holy Ghost: under an equal majesty, and a pious
    Trinity. We authorize the followers of this doctrine to assume the
    title of Catholic Christians; and as we judge that all others are
    extravagant madmen, we brand them with the infamous name of
    “heretics,” and declare that their conventicles shall no longer usurp
    the respectable appellation of churches. Besides the condemnation
    of divine justice, they must expect to suffer the severe penalties
    which our authority, guided by heavenly wisdom, shall think proper
    to inflict upon them
    Gibbon’s “Decline and Fall,” chap. 27, par. 6. )

    This law was issued in the names of the three emperors, Gratian,
    Valentinian II, and Theodosius. “Thus the religion of the whole Roman
    world was enacted by two feeble boys and a rude Spanish soldier.” ( Milman- “History of Christianity,” book 3, chap. 9, par. 1. )

    In the supremacy of the papacy, Justinian holds the same place as does
    Constantine and Theodosius in the establishment of the Catholic Church.
    “Among the titles of greatness, the name ‘Pious’ was most pleasing to his
    ears; to promote the temporal and spiritual interests of the church was the
    serious business of his life; and the duty of father of his country was often
    sacrificed to that of defender of the faith.” ( Gibbon - “Decline and Fall,” chap. xlvii, par. 23. )

    “The emperor Justinian unites in himself the most opposite vices, — insatiable rapacity
    and lavish prodigality, intense pride and contemptible weakness,
    unmeasured ambition and dastardly cowardice.... In the Christian emperor,
    seem to meet the crimes of those who won or secured their empire by
    assassination of all whom they feared, the passion for public diversions
    without the accomplishments of Nero or the brute strength of Commodus,
    the dotage of Claudius.” ( Milman - “History of Latin Christianity,” book 3, chap. 4, par. 2. )

    In the year 532, Justinian issued an edict declaring his intention “to unite all
    men in one faith.” Whether they were Jews, Gentiles, or Christians, all who
    did not within three months profess and embrace the Catholic faith, were
    by the edict “declared infamous, and as such excluded from all
    employments both civil and military; rendered incapable of leaving anything
    by will; and all their estates confiscated, whether real or personal.” As a
    result of this cruel edict, “Great numbers were driven from their habitations
    with their wives and children, stripped and naked. Others betook
    themselves to flight, carrying with them what they could conceal, for their
    support and maintenance; but they were plundered of what little they had,
    and many of them inhumanly massacred.” ( Bower - “History of the Popes,” Boniface 2,
    par. 2. )


    BOOK 1.

    TITLE 1.
    1. The Emperors Gratian, Valentinian, and Theodosius to the people of the City of Constantinople.
    We desire that all peoples subject to Our benign Empire shall live under the same religion that the Divine Peter, the Apostle, gave to the Romans, and which the said religion declares was introduced by himself, and which it is well known that the Pontiff Damascus, and Peter, Bishop of Alexandria, a man of apostolic sanctity, embraced; that is to say, in accordance with the rules of apostolic discipline and the evangelical doctrine, we should believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit constitute a single Deity, endowed with equal majesty, and united in the Holy Trinity.
    (1) We order all those who follow this law to assume the name of Catholic Christians, and considering others as demented and insane, We order that they shall bear the infamy of heresy; and when the Divine vengeance which they merit has been appeased, they shall afterwards be punished in accordance with Our resentment, which we have acquired from the judgment of Heaven.
    Dated at Thessalonica, on the third of the Kalends of March, during the Consulate of Gratian, Consul for the fifth time, and Theodosius.
    2. The Same Emperors to Eutropius, Praetorian Prefect.
    Let no place be afforded to heretics for the conduct of their ceremonies, and let no occasion be offered for them to display the insanity of their obstinate minds. Let all persons know that if any privilege has been fraudulently obtained by means of any rescript whatsoever, by persons of this kind, it will not be valid. Let all bodies of heretics be prevented from holding unlawful assemblies, and let the name of the only and the greatest God be celebrated everywhere, and let the observance of the Nicene Creed, recently transmitted to Our ancestors, and firmly established by the testimony and practice of Divine Religion, always remain secure.
    (1) Moreover, he who is an adherent of the Nicene Faith, and a true believer in the Catholic religion, should be understood to be one [pg. 10] who believes that Almighty God and Christ, the son of God, are one person, God of God, Light of Light; and let no one, by rejection, dishonor the Holy Spirit, whom we expect, and have received from the Supreme Parent of all things, in whom the sentiment of a pure and undefiled faith flourishes, as well as the belief in the undivided substance of a Holy Trinity, which true believers indicate by the Greek word These things, indeed do not require further proof, and should be respected.
    (2) Let those who do not accept those doctrines cease to apply the name of true religion to their fraudulent belief; and let them be branded with their open crimes, and, having been removed from the threshhold of all churches, be utterly excluded from them, as We forbid all heretics to hold unlawful assemblies within cities. If, however, any seditious outbreak should be attempted, We order them to be driven outside the the walls of the City, with relentless violence, and We direct that all Catholic Churches, throughout the entire world, shall be placed under the control of the orthodox bishops who have embraced the Nicene Creed.
    Given at Constantinople, on the fourth of the ides of January, under the Consulate of Flavius Eucharius and Flavius Syagrius.
    3. The Emperor Martian to Palladius, Praetorian Prefect.
    No one, whether he belongs to the clergy, the army, or to any other condition of men, shall, with a view to causing a tumult and giving occasion to treachery, attempt to discuss the Christian religion publicly in the presence of an assembled and listening crowd; for he commits an injury against the most reverend Synod who publicly contradicts what has once been decided and properly established; as those matters relative to the Christian faith have been settled by the priests who met at Chalcedony by Our order, and are known to be in conformity with the apostolic explanations and conclusions of the three hundred and eight Holy Fathers assembled in Nicea, and the hundred and fifty who met in this Imperial City; for the violators of this law shall not go unpunished, because they not only oppose the true faith, but they also profane its venerated mysteries by engaging in contests of this kind with Jews and Pagans. Therefore, if any person who has ventured to publicly discuss religious matters is a member of the clergy, he shall be removed from his order; if he is a member of the army, he shall be degraded; and any others who are guilty of this offence, who are freemen, shall be banished from this most Sacred City, and shall be subjected to the punishment prescribed by law according to the power of the court; and if they are slaves, they shall undergo severest penalty.
    Given at Constantinople, on the eighth of the Ides of February, under the consulship of Patricius.
    4. John, Bishop of the City of Rome, to his most Illustrious and Merciful Son Justinian.
    Among the conspicuous reasons for praising your wisdom and gentleness, Most Christian of Emperors, and one which radiates light [pg. 11]as a star, is the fact that through love of the Faith, and actuated by zeal for charity, you, learned in ecclesiastical discipline, have preserved reverence for the See of Rome, and have subjected all things to its authority, and have given it unity. The following precept was communicated to its founder, that is to say, the first of the Apostles, by the mouth of the Lord, namely: "Feed my lambs."
    This See is indeed the head of all churches, as the rules of the Fathers and the decrees of the Emperors assert, and the words of your most reverend piety testify. It is therefore claimed that what the Scriptures state, namely, "By Me Kings reign, and the Powers dispense justice;" will be accomplished in you. For there is nothing which shines with a more brilliant lustre than genuine faith when displayed by a prince, since there is nothing which prevents destruction as true religion does, for as both of them have reference to the Author of Life and Light, they disperse darkness and prevent apostasy. Wherefore, Most Glorious of Princes, the Divine Power is implored by the prayers of all to preserve your piety in this ardor for the Faith, in this devotion of your mind, and in this zeal for true religion, without failure, during your entire existence. For we believe that this is for the benefit of the Holy Churches, as it was written, "The king rules with his lips," and again, "The heart of the King is in the hand of God, and it will incline to whatever side God wishes"; that is to say, that He may confirm your empire, and maintain your kingdoms for the peace of the Church and the unity of religion; guard their authority, and preserve him in that sublime tranquillity which is so grateful to him; and no small change is granted by the Divine Power through whose agency a divided church is not afflicted by any griefs or subject to any reproaches. For it is written, "A just king, who is upon his throne, has no reason to apprehend any misfortune."
    We have received with all due respect the evidences of your serenity, through Hypatius and Demetrius, most holy men, my brothers and fellow-bishops, from whose statements we have learned that you have promulgated an Edict addressed to your faithful people, and dictated by your love of the Faith, for the purpose of overthrowing the designs of heretics, which is in accordance with the evangelical tenets, and which we have confirmed by our authority with the consent of our brethren and fellow bishops, for the reason that it is in conformity with the apostolic doctrine.

    The following is the text of the letter of the Emperor Justinian, Victorious, Pious, Happy, Renowned, Triumphant, always Augustus, to John, Patriarch, and most Holy Archbishop of the fair City of Rome:
    With honor to the Apostolic See, and to your Holiness, which is, and always has been remembered in Our prayers, both now and formerly, and honoring your happiness, as is proper in the case of one who is considered as a father, We hasten to bring to the knowledge of Your Holiness everything relating to the condition of the Church, as We have always had the greatest desire to preserve the unity of your Apostolic See, and the condition of the Holy Churches of God, as they [pg. 12] exist at the present time, that they may remain without disturbance or opposition. Therefore, We have exerted Ourselves to unite all the priests of the East and subject them to the See of Your Holiness, and hence the questions which have at present arisen, although they are manifest and free from doubt, and according to the doctrines of your Apostolic See, are constantly firmly observed and preached by all priests,We have still considered it necessary that they should be brought to the attention of Your Holiness. For we do not suffer anything which has reference to the state of the Church, even though what causes difficulty may be clear and free from doubt, to be discussed without being brought to the notice of Your Holiness, because you are the head of all the Holy Churches, for We shall exert Ourselves in every way (as has already been stated), to increase the honor and authority of your See.

    One Hundred and Thirty-First New Constitution.
    The Emperor Justinian to Peter, Most Glorious Imperial Praetorian Prefect.
    We enact the present law with reference to ecclesiastical rules and privileges and other subjects in which holy churches and religious establishments are intrusted.
    Chapter I.
    Concerning Four Holy Councils.
    Therefore We order that the sacred, ecclesiastical rules which were adopted and confirmed by the four Holy Councils, that is to say, that of the three hundred and eighteen bishops held at Nicea, that of the one hundred and fifty bishops held at Constantinople, the first one of Ephesus, where Nestorius was condemned, and the one assembled at Chalcedon, where Eutyches and Nestorius were anathematized, shall be considered as laws. We accept the dogmas of these four Councils as sacred writings, and observe their rules as legally effective.
    Chapter II.
    Concerning The Precedence of Partriarchs.
    Hence, in accordance with the provisions of these Councils, We order that the Most Holy Pope of ancient Rome shall hold the first rank of all the Pontiffs, but the Most Blessed Archbishop of Constantinople, or New Rome, shall occupy the second place after the Holy Apostolic See of ancient Rome, which shall take precedence over all other sees.
    Source: Corpus Juris Civilis (The Civil Law, the Code of Justinian), by S.P. Scott, A.M., published by the Central Trust Company, Cincinnati, copyright 1932, Volume 12 [of 17], pages 9-12, 125.

    continued on next post
  12. Kamoroso

    Kamoroso New Member

    Feb 17, 2003
    Likes Received:
    The Abominations and Filthiness of Her Fornication

    Having already established the Church of Rome’s adulterous relations with the kings of the earth, let us move on to the abomination and filthiness of her fornication. As it is the intention of the writer, to prove from history that the identifying marks of the Mother of Harlots apply to the Church of Rome, it is therefore necessary to examine the records of history.

    Before we begin to examine some of this history, let us first discover the meaning of abominations from the scriptures. What did the Lord refer to as an abomination in the Holy Scriptures? The answer to this question, will determine what we will identify as such, within the Church of Rome.

    Deuteronomy 7 25 The graven images of their gods shall ye burn with fire: thou shalt not desire the silver or gold that is on them, nor take it unto thee, lest thou be snared therein: for it is an abomination to the LORD thy God. 26 Neither shalt thou bring an abomination into thine house, lest thou be a cursed thing like it: but thou shalt utterly detest it, and thou shalt utterly abhor it; for it is a cursed thing.

    Worshipping, or bowing down to, or owning idols, is an abomination to the Lord.

    Deuteronomy 12 29 When the LORD thy God shall cut off the nations from before thee, whither thou goest to possess them, and thou succeedest them, and dwellest in their land; 30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou inquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise. 31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods. 32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

    Following the example of how other nations worshiped their god’s is an abomination unto the Lord.

    Deuteronomy 17 1 Thou shalt not sacrifice unto the LORD thy God any bullock, or sheep, wherein is blemish, or any evilfavouredness: for that is an abomination unto the LORD thy God. 2 If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant, 3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and inquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel: 5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

    Offering and incomplete, or blemished sacrifice to the Lord, is an abomination unto the Lord. Worshiping other god’s, particularly, the sun, moon, or stars, is an abomination unto the Lord.

    Deuteronomy 18 9 When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. 10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, 11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. 12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee. 13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.

    It is an abomination for God’s people to learn to do after the people which the Lord has given into their hands. They should not worship their god’s, or incorporate their practices of worship into their own.

    Deuteronomy 32 16 They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger. 17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not. 18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee. 19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters. 20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith

    Incorporating the practices of other religions into the true religion, is an abomination unto the Lord.

    II Kings 23 23 But in the eighteenth year of king Josiah, wherein this passover was holden to the LORD in Jerusalem. 24 Moreover the workers with familiar spirits, and the wizards, and the images, and the idols, and all the abominations that were spied in the land of Judah and in Jerusalem, did Josiah put away, that he might perform the words of the law which were written in the book that Hilkiah the priest found in the house of the LORD.

    Those who spoke to the dead, practiced magic, worshipped images, and idols, were an abomination unto he Lord.

    Ezra 9 12 Now therefore give not your daughters unto their sons, neither take their daughters unto your sons, nor seek their peace or their wealth for ever: that ye may be strong, and eat the good of the land, and leave it for an inheritance to your children for ever. 13 And after all that is come upon us for our evil deeds, and for our great trespass, seeing that thou our God hast punished us less than our iniquities deserve, and hast given us such deliverance as this; 14 Should we again break thy commandments, and join in affinity with the people of these abominations? wouldest not thou be angry with us till thou hadst consumed us, so that there should be no remnant nor escaping?

    Practicing the abominations of the nations around them, was the breaking of God’s commandments. The breaking of God’s commandments is an abomination. Not just that someone sinned, but that they accepted and believed, and practiced, that which was the breaking of God’s commandments. This is an abomination.

    No doubt, many reading have already associated many of the above abominations with the Church of Rome. For her adherents do pray to the dead in Mary and the saints. They do also bow down to images of the same. Many of these very images were incorporated from the pagan religions which permeated through the Church of Rome through her absorbance of the pagan worshippers that were declared Christian by the edicts of kings, and emperors. The effect of which, was the amalgamation of pagan, and Christian practices.

    The vast majority of Christians worship God today on the day of the Sun. They do not realize where, by whom, and how this day was even established. The previous chapter touched upon this subject briefly in order to show the Church of Rome’s connection to the kings of this earth. Some of the same material will be repeated in this chapter, since the establishment of Sunday worship is synonymous with the harlot committing fornication with the kings of the earth, as well as having a cup full of the abominations of her fornication. These two go hand in hand since it is by her adulteress relations with the kings of the earth, that the practices of their pagan religions become intertwined with this apostate Christian entity. In any case, even though many may already know these things, here is the some of the history of how these things came about.

    The worship of the Christian martyrs

    The ruin of the Pagan religion is described by the sophists as a dreadful and amazing prodigy, which covered the earth with darkness and restored the ancient dominion of chaos and of night. They relate in solemn and pathetic strains; that the temples were converted into sepulchres, and that the holy places, which had been adorned by the statues of the gods, were basely polluted by the relics of Christian martyrs. "The monks" (a race of filthy animals, to whom; Eunapius is tempted to refuse the name of men) "are the authors of the new worship, which, in. the place of those deities who are conceived by the understanding, has substituted the meanest and most contemptible slaves. The heads, salted and pickled, of those infamous malefactors, who for the multitude of their crimes have suffered a just and ignominious death; their bodies, still marked by the impression of the lash and the scars of those tortures which were inflicted by the sentence of the magistrate; such" (continues Eunapius) "are the gods which the earth produces in our days; such are the martyrs, the supreme arbitrators of our prayers and petitions to the Deity, whose tombs are now consecrated as the objects of the veneration of the people." Without approving the malice, it is natural enough to share the surprise of the sophist, the spectator of a revolution which raised those obscure victims of the laws of Rome to the rank of celestial and invisible protectors of the Roman empire. The grateful respect of the Christians for the martyrs of the faith was exalted, by time and victory, into religious adoration; and the most illustrious of the saints and prophets were deservedly associated to the honours of the martyrs. One hundred and fifty years after the glorious deaths of St. Peter and St. Paul, the Vatican and the Ostian road were distinguished by the tombs, or rather by the trophies, of those; spiritual heroes. In the age which followed the conversion of Constantine, the emperors, the consuls, and the generals of armies devoutly visited the sepulchres of a tent-maker and a fisherman; and their venerable bones were deposited under the altars of Christ, on which the bishops of the royal city continually offered the unbloody sacrifice. The new capital of the Eastern world, unable to produce any ancient and domestic trophies, was enriched by the spoils of dependent provinces. The bodies of St. Andrew, St. Luke, and St. Timothy had reposed near three hundred years in the obscure graves from whence they were transported, in solemn pomp, to the church of the apostles, which the magnificence of Constantine had founded on the banks of the Thracian Bosphorus. About fifty years afterwards the same banks were honoured by the presence of Samuel, the judge and prophet of the people of Israel. His ashes, deposited in a golden vase, and covered with a silken veil, were delivered by the bishops into each other's hands. The relics of Samuel were received by the people with the same joy and reverence which they would have shown to the living prophet; the highways, from Palestine to the gates of Constantinople, were filled with an uninterrupted procession; and the emperor Arcadius himself, at the head of the most illustrious members of the clergy and senate, advanced to meet his extraordinary guest, who had always deserved and claimed the homage of kings. The example of Rome and Constantinople confirmed the faith and discipline of the catholic world. The honours of the saints and martyrs, after a feeble and ineffectual murmur of profane reason, were universally established; and in the age of Ambrose and Jerom something was still deemed wanting to the sanctity of a Christian church, till it had been consecrated by some portion of holy relics, which fixed and inflamed the devotion of the faithful.

    General Reflections

    In the long period of twelve hundred years, which elapsed between the reign of Constantine and the reformation of Luther, the worship of saints and relics corrupted the pure and perfect simplicity of the Christian model; and some symptoms of degeneracy may be observed even in the first generations which adopted and cherished this pernicious innovation.

    I. Fabulous martyrs and relics.

    I. The satisfactory experience that the relics of saints were more valuable than gold or precious stones stimulated the clergy to multiply the treasures of the church. Without much regard for truth or probability, they invented names for skeletons, and actions for names. The fame of the apostles, and of the holy men who had imitated their virtues, was darkened by religious fiction. To the invincible band of genuine and primitive martyrs they added myriads of imaginary heroes, who had never existed, except in the fancy of crafty or credulous legendaries; and there is reason to suspect that Tours might not be the only diocese in which the bones of a malefactor were adored instead of those of a saint. A superstitious practice, which tended to increase the temptations of fraud and credulity, insensibly extinguished the light of history and of reason in the Christian world.

    II Miracles

    II. But the progress of superstition would have been much less rapid and victorious if the faith of the people had not been assisted by the seasonable aid of visions and miracles to ascertain the authenticity and virtue of the most suspicious relics. In the reign of the younger Theodosius, Lucian, a presbyter of Jerusalem, and the ecclesiastical minister of the village of Caphargamala, about twenty miles from the city, related a very singular dream, which, to remove his doubts, had been repeated on three successive Saturdays. A venerable figure stood before him, in the silence of the night, with a long beard, a white robe, and a gold rod; announced himself by the name of Gamaliel; and revealed to the astonished presbyter, that his own corpse, with the bodies of his son Abibas, his friend Nicodemus, and the illustrious Stephen, the first martyr of the Christian faith, were secretly buried in the adjacent field. He added, with some impatience, that it was time to release himself and his companions from their obscure prison; that their appearance would be salutary to a distressed world; and that they had made choice of Lucian to inform the bishop of Jerusalem of their situation and their wishes. The doubts and difficulties which still retarded this important discovery were successively removed by new visions; and the ground was opened by the bishop in the presence of an innumerable multitude; The coffins of Gamaliel, of his son, and of his friend, were found in regular order; but when the fourth coffin, which contained the remains of Stephen, was shown to the light, the earth trembled, and an odour such as that of Paradise was smelt, which instantly cured the various diseases of seventy-three of the assistants. The companions of Stephen were left in their peaceful residence of Caphargamala; but the relics of the first martyr were transported, in solemn procession, to a church constructed in their honour on Mount Sion; and the minute particles of those relics, a drop of blood, or the scrapings of a bone, were acknowledged, in almost every province of the Roman world, to possess a divine and miraculous virtue. The grave and learned Augustin, whose understanding scarcely admits the excuse of credulity, has attested the innumerable prodigies which were performed in Africa by the relics of St. Stephen; and this marvellous narrative is inserted in the elaborate work of the City of God, which the bishop of Hippo designed as a solid and immortal proof of the truth of Christianity. Augustin solemnly declares that he has selected those miracles only which were publicly certified by the persons who were either the objects, or the spectators, of the power of the martyr. Many prodigies were omitted or forgotten; and Hippo had been less favourably treated than the other cities of the province. And yet the bishop enumerates above seventy miracles, of which three were resurrections from the dead, in the space of two years, and within the limits of his own diocese. If we enlarge our view to all the diocese, and all the saints, of the Christian world, it will not be easy to calculate the fables, and the errors, which issued from this inexhaustible source. But we may surely be allowed to observe that a miracle, in that age of superstition and credulity, lost its name and its merit, since it could scarcely be considered as a deviation from the ordinary and established: laws of nature.

    III Revival of polytheism.

    III. The innumerable miracles, of which the tombs of the martyrs were the perpetual theatre, revealed to the pious believer the actual state and constitution of the invisible world; and his religious speculations appeared to be founded on the firm basis of fact and experience. What ever might be the condition of vulgar souls in the long interval between the dissolution and the resurrection of their bodies, it was evident. that the superior spirits of the saints and martyrs did not consume that portion of their existence in silent and inglorious sleep. It was evident (without presuming to determine the place of their habitation, or the nature of their felicity) that they enjoyed the lively and active consciousness of their happiness, their virtue, and their powers; and that they had already secured the possession of their eternal reward. The enlargement of their intellectual faculties surpassed the measure of the human imagination; since it was proved by experience that they were capable of hearing and understanding the various petitions of their numerous votaries, who, in the same moment of time, but in the most distant parts of the world, invoked the name and assistance of Stephen or of Martin. The confidence of their petitioners was founded on the persuasion that the saints, who reigned with Christ, cast an eye of pity upon earth; that they were warmly interested in the prosperity of the Catholic church; and that the individuals who imitated the example of their faith and piety were the peculiar and favourite objects of their most tender regard. Sometimes, indeed, their friendship might be influenced by considerations of a less exalted kind: they viewed with partial affection the places which had been consecrated by their birth, their residence, their death, their burial, or the possession of their relics. The meaner passions of pride, avarice, and revenge, may be deemed unworthy of a celestial breast; yet the saints themselves condescended to testify their grateful approbation of the liberality of their votaries; and the sharpest bolts of punishment were hurled against those impious wretches who violated their magnificent shrines, or disbelieved their supernatural power. Atrocious, indeed, must have been the guilt, and strange would have been the scepticism, of those men, if they had obstinately resisted the proofs of a divine agency, which the elements, the whole range of the animal creation, and even the subtle and invisible operations of the human mind, were compelled to obey. The immediate, and almost instantaneous, effects, that were supposed to follow the prayer, or the offence, satisfied the Christians of the ample measure of favour and authority which the saints enjoyed in the presence of the Supreme God; and it seemed almost superfluous to inquire whether they were continually obliged to intercede before the throne of grace, or whether they might not be permitted to exercise, according to the dictates of their benevolence and justice, the delegated powers of their subordinate ministry. The imagination, which had been raised by a painful effort to the contemplation and worship of the Universal Cause, eagerly embraced such inferior objects of adoration as were more proportioned to its gross conceptions and imperfect faculties. The sublime and simple theology of the primitive Christians was gradually corrupted: and the MONARCHY of heaven, already clouded by metaphysical subtleties, was degraded by the introduction of a popular mythology which tended to restore the reign of polytheism.

    IV Introduction of Pagan ceremonies.

    IV. As the objects of religion were gradually reduced to the standard of the imagination, the rites and ceremonies were introduced that seemed most powerfully to affect the senses of the vulgar. If, in the beginning of the fifth century, Tertullian, or Lactantius, had been suddenly raised from the dead, to assist at the festival of some popular saint or martyr, they would have gazed with astonishment and indignation on the profane spectacle which had succeeded to the pure and spiritual worship of a Christian congregation. As soon as the doors of the church were thrown open, they must have been offended by the smoke of incense, the perfume of flowers, and the glare of lamps and tapers, which diffused, at noon-day, a gaudy, superfluous, and, in their opinion, a sacrilegious light. If they approached the balustrade of the altar, they made their way through the prostrate crowd, consisting, for the most part, of strangers and pilgrims, who resorted to the city on the vigil of the feast; and who already felt the strong intoxication of fanaticism, and, perhaps, of wine. Their devout kisses were imprinted on the walls and pavement of the sacred edifice; and their fervent prayers were directed, whatever might be the language of their church, to the bones, the blood, or the ashes of the saint, which were usually concealed, by a linen or silken veil, from the eyes of the vulgar. The Christians frequented the tombs of the martyrs, in the hope of obtaining, from their powerful intercession, every sort of spiritual, but more especially of temporal, blessings. They implored the preservation of their health, or the cure of their infirmities; the fruitfulness of their barren wives, or the safety and happiness of their children. Whenever they undertook any distant or dangerous journey, they requested that the holy martyrs would be their guides and protectors on the road; and if they returned without having experienced any misfortune, they again hastened to the tombs of the martyrs, to celebrate, with grateful thanksgivings, their obligations to the memory and relics of those heavenly patrons. The walls were hung round with symbols of the favours which they had received; eyes, and hands, and feet, of gold and silver: and edifying pictures, which could not long escape the abuse of indiscreet or idolatrous devotion, represented the image, the attributes, and the miracles of the tutelar saint. The same uniform original spirit of superstition might suggest, in the most distant ages and countries, the same methods of deceiving the credulity, and of affecting the senses of mankind: but it must ingenuously be confessed that the ministers of the catholic church imitated the profane model which they were impatient to destroy. The most respectable bishops had persuaded themselves that the ignorant rustics would more cheerfully renounce the superstitions of Paganism, if they found some resemblance, some compensation, in the bosom of Christianity. The religion of Constantine achieved, in less than a century, the final conquest of the Roman empire: but the victors themselves were insensibly subdued by the arts of their vanquished rivals. ( The Decline And Fall Of The Roman Empire by Edward Gibbon, Chapter 28 )

    The above account by Edward Gibbon, is a revelation of the repetitive cycle of the history of humanity in relation to God’s grace and mercy towards us. Just as the nation of Israel in the days of old, continuously fell prey to the dangers of success, so too did Christianity follow in suit.

    When God had blessed the nation of Israel, and had subdued her enemies round about, apostasy was soon at the doors. It was by trusting in alliances with other heathen nations, and incorporating the religious practices of these nations, and those which they had conquered, that the apostasy spread throughout Israel. These things were repeatedly denounced by God’s prophets, as abominations. So to, as soon as Christianity had conquered paganism, if you will, she made the same mistakes. Incorporating the religious practices and ceremonies of conquered paganism into her own ranks. It was thus, that she obtained the favor of those who once opposed her, including the kings of this earth. Having established their approval, they then entered into forbidden relationships with these kings, and their unconverted subjects.

    That which was abominable in the sight of God during the old covenant, was, and is still abominable to Him today. The Church of Rome, is the Mother of all apostate “ Christian” entities of this world, that have incorporated these abominations within their ranks. That is, the religious practices and ceremonies of paganism, and the reliance upon the civil powers of this earth, to enforce their dogmas. Let us examine some more history regarding the same.

    “Popery, then, we hold to be an after-growth of Paganism, whose deadly wound, dealt by the spiritual sword of Christianity, was healed. Its oracles had been silenced, its shrines demolished, and its gods consigned to oblivion; but the deep corruption of the human race, not yet cured by the promised effusion of the Spirit upon all flesh, revived it anew, and, under a Christian mask, reared other temples in its honour, built it another Pantheon, and replenished it with other gods, which, in fact, were but the ancient divinities under new names. All idolatries, in whatever age or country they have existed, are to be viewed but as successive developments of the one grand apostacy. That apostacy was commenced in Eden, and consummated at Rome. It had its rise in the plucking of the forbidden fruit; and it attained its acme in the supremacy of the Bishop of Rome,--Christ's Vicar on earth. The hope that he would "be as God," led man to commit the first sin; and that sin was perfected when the Pope "exalted himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he, as God, sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God." Popery is but the natural development of this great original transgression. It is just the early idolatries ripened and perfected. It is manifestly an enormous expansion of the same intensely malignant and fearfully destructive principle which these idolatries contained. The ancient Chaldean worshipping the sun,--the Greek deifying the powers of nature,--and the Roman exalting the race of primeval men into gods, are but varied manifestations of the same evil principle, namely, the utter alienation of the heart from God,--its proneness to hide itself amid the darkness of its own corrupt imaginations, and to become a god unto itself. That principle received the most fearful development which appears possible on earth, in the Mystery of Iniquity which came to be seated on the Seven Hills; for therein man deified himself, became God, nay, arrogated powers which lifted him high above God. Popery is the last, the most matured, the most subtle, the most skilfully contriven, and the most essentially diabolical form of idolatry which the world ever saw, or which, there is reason to believe, it ever will see. It is the ne plus ultra of man's wickedness, and the chef d'oeuvre of Satan's cunning and malignity. It is the greatest calamity, next to the Fall, which ever befell the human family. Farther away from God the world could not exist at all. The cement that holds society together, already greatly weakened, would be altogether destroyed, and the social fabric would instantly fall in ruins.” ( History of the Papacy. By Rev. J.A. Wylie, LL.D. Chapter I. )

    No sooner were the apostles removed from the stage of action, no sooner was their watchful attention gone and their apostolic authority removed, than this very thing appeared of which the apostle had spoken. Certain bishops, in order to make easier the conversion of the heathen, to multiply disciples, and by this increase their own influence and authority, began to adopt heathen customs and forms.

    When the canon of Scripture was closed, and the last of the apostles was dead, the first century was gone; and within twenty years of that time the perversion of the truth of Christ had become wide-spread. In the history of this century and of this subject the record is, — “It is certain that to religious worship, both public and private, many rites were added, without necessity, and to the offense of sober and good men.” ( Mosheim - “Ecclesiastical History,” Murdock’s translation, century 2, part 2, chap. iv, par. 1. )

    And the reason of this is stated to be that —
    “The Christians were pronounced atheists, because they were destitute of temples, altars, victims, priests, and all that pomp in which the vulgar suppose the essence of religion to consist. For unenlightened persons are prone to estimate religion by what meets their eyes. To silence this accusation, the Christian doctors thought it necessary to introduce some external rites, which would strike the senses of the people, so that they could maintain themselves really to possess all those things of which Christians were charged with being destitute, though under different forms.” ( Mosheim - Id., par. 3. )

    This was at once to accommodate the Christian worship and its forms to that of the heathen, and was almost at one step to heathenize Christianity. No heathen element or form can be connected with Christianity or its worship, and Christianity remain pure.

    Of all the ceremonies of the heathen, the mysteries were the most sacred and most universally practised. Some mysteries were in honor of Bacchus, some of Cybele, but the greatest of all, those considered the most sacred of all and the most widely practised, were the Eleusinian, so called because celebrated at Eleusis in Greece. But whatever was the mystery that was celebrated, there was always in it, as an essential part of it, the elements of abomination that characterized sun-worship everywhere, because the mysteries were simply forms of the wide-spread and multiform worship of the sun.

    We will pause here for a brief moment to take note of the above statement. The vast majority of the pagan rites and ceremonies adopted by apostate Christianity, were elements of the many, and varied forms of Sun worship. This same fact holds true also, to the varied forms of worship adopted by apostate Israel during the old covenant. This issue we will address in greater detail later in this book.

    Among the first of the perversions of the Christian worship was to give to its forms the title and air of the mysteries. For says the record: — “Among the Greeks and the people of the East, nothing was held more sacred than what were called the mysteries. This circumstance led the Christians, in order to impart dignity to their religion, to say that they also had similar mysteries, or certain holy rites concealed from the vulgar; and they not only applied the terms used in the pagan mysteries to Christian institutions, particularly baptism and the Lord’s Supper, but they gradually introduced also the rites which were designated by these terms.” ( Mosheim - Id., par. 5. )

    It was to accommodate the Christian worship to the minds of a people who practised these things that the bishops gave to the Christian ordinances the name of mysteries. The Lord’s Supper was made the greater mystery, baptism the lesser and the initiatory rite to the celebration
    of the former. After the heathen manner also a white garment was used as the initiatory robe, and the candidate, having been baptized, and thus initiated into the lesser mysteries, was admitted into what was called in the church the order of catechumens, in which order they remained a certain length of time, as in the heathen celebration, before they were admitted to the celebration of the Lord’s Supper, the greater mystery.

    “This practice originated in the Eastern provinces, and then after the time of Hadrian (who first introduced the pagan mysteries among the Latins) it spread among the Christians of the West.” The reign of Hadrian was from 117-138. Therefore, before the second century was half gone, before the last of the apostles had been dead forty years, this apostasy, this working of the mystery of iniquity, had so largely spread over both the East and the West, that it is literally true that “a large part, therefore, of the Christian observances and institutions, even in this century, had the aspect of the pagan mysteries.” ( Mosheim - “Ecclesiastical History,” century 2, part 2, chap. 4, par. 5. ) ( The Great Empires of Prophecy, A. T. Jones )

    When Christianity conquered Rome the ecclesiastical structure of the pagan church, the title and vestments of the pontifex maximus, the worship of the Great Mother and a multitude of comforting divinities, the sense of supersensible presences everywhere, the joy or solemnity of old festivals, and the pageantry of immemorial ceremony, passed like maternal blood into the new religion, and captive Rome captured her conqueror. The reins and skill of government were handed down by a dying empire to a virile papacy; the lost power of the broken sword was rewon by the magic of the consoling word; the armies of the state were replaced by the missionaries of the Church moving in all directions along the Roman roads; and the revolted provinces, accepting Christianity, again acknowledged the sovereignty of Rome. Through the long struggles of the Age of Faith the authority of the ancient capital persisted and grew, until in the Renaissance the classic culture seemed to rise from the grave, and the immortal city became once more the center of summit of the world's life and wealth and art. When, in 1936, Rome celebrated the 2689th anniversary of her foundation, she could look back upon the most impressive continuity of government and civilization in the history of mankind. May she rise again.(CAESAR AND CHRIST, A history of Roman Civilization and of Christianity from their beginnings to A.D.325. By Will Durant-1944)

    “A law of the year 321 ordered tribunals, shops, and workshops to be closed on the day of the sun, and he [Constantine] sent to the legions, to be recited upon that day, a form of prayer which could have been employed by a worshiper of Mithra, of Serapis, or of Apollo, quite as well as by a Christian believer. This was the official sanction of the old custom of addressing a prayer to the rising sun. IN DETERMINING WHAT DAYS SHOULD BE REGARDED AS HOLY, and in the composition of a prayer for national use, CONSTANTINE EXERCISED ONE OF THE RIGHTS BELONGING TO HIM AS PONTIFEX MAXIMUS; and it caused no surprise that he should do this.” ( Duruy - “History of Rome,” chap. 102, part 1:par. 4 from end. )

    The text of Constantine's Sunday Law of 321 A.D. is :
    "One the venerable day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country however persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits because it often happens that another day is not suitable for gain-sowing or vine planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost. (Given the 7th day of March, Crispus and Constantine being consuls each of them the second time." Codex Justinianus, lib. 3, tit. 12, 3; translated in History of the Christian Church, Philip Schaff, D.D., (7-vol.ed.) Vol. III, p.380. New York, 1884

    Dr. A.Chr. Bang says regarding this Law :
    "This Sunday law constituted no real favoratism to Christianity..... It is evident from all his statuatory provisions that the Emperor during the time 313-323 with full consciousness has sought the realisation of his religeous aim: the amalgamation of heathenism and Christianity." Kirken og Romerstaten (The Church and the Roman State) p.256. Christiania, 1879

    In A.D. 32 to please the bishops of the Catholic Church, he issued an
    edict commanding judges, townspeople, and mechanics to rest on Sunday.
    Yet in this also his paganism was still manifest, as the edict required rest on
    the venerable day of the sun," and "enjoined the observance, or rather
    forbade the public desecration, of Sunday, not under the name of Sabbatum, or Dies Domini, but under its old astrological and heathen title,
    Dies Solis , familiar to all his subjects, so that the law was as applicable to
    the worshipers of Hercules, Apollo, and Mithras, as to the Christians.
    " (History of the Christian Church, Vol. 3, sec. 75, par. 5.-Schaff.) ( The Great Empires of Prophecy by Alonzo Jones page 391 )

    Then came Constantine, the best imperial representative of the new paganism, and the most devout worshiper of the sun as the supreme and universal deity, with the avowed purpose, as expressed in his own words, "First to bring the diverse judgments formed by all nations respecting the Deity to a condition, as it were, of settled uniformity." In Constantine the new paganism met its ideal, and the New Platonism – the apostate, paganized, sun-worshiping form of Christianity - met its long-wished-for instrument. In him the two streams met. In him the aspiration of Elagabalus, the hope of Ammonius Saccas and Clement, of Plotinus and Origen, and the ambition of the perverse-minded, self-exalted bishops, were all realized and accomplished -a new, imperial, and universal religion was created.
    Therefore, "the reign of Constantine the Great forms one of the epochs in the history of the world. It is the era of the dissolution of the Roman Empire; the commencement, or rather consolidation, of a kind of Eastern despotism, with a new capital, a new patriciate, a new constitution, a new financial system, a new, though as yet imperfect, jurisprudence, and, finally, a new religion." ( Milman - History of Christianity, book 3, chap. 1, par. 1 ) The epoch thus formed was the epoch of the papacy; and the new religion thus created was the PAPAL RELIGION. ( The Great Empires of Prophecy by Alonzo Jones page 361 )

    "Aurelian ... created a new cult of the 'Invincible Son.' Worshipped in a splendid temple, served by pontiffs who were raised to the level of the ancient pontiffs of Rome .... On establishing this new cult, Aurelian in reality proclaimed the dethronement of the old Roman idolatry and the accession of Semitic Sun-Worship." Franz Cumont, "Astrology and Religion Among the Greeks and Romans," p. 55, 56.

    "The two opposed creeds [Christianity and Mithraism] moved in the same intellectual and moral sphere, and one could actually pass from one to the other without shock or interruption." Cumont, ibid. p. 210.

    "Our observance of Sunday as the Lord's day is apparently derived from Mithraism. The argument that has sometimes been used against this claim, namely, that Sunday was chosen because of the resurrection on that day, is not well supported." Gordon J. Laing, "Survivals of Roman Religion," p. 148.

    "As a solar festival, Sunday was the sacred day of Mithra; and it is interesting to notice that since Mithra was addressed as Dominus, 'Lord,' Sunday must have been the 'Lord's Day' long before the Christian times." A. Weigall, "The Paganism in Our Christianity," p. 145.

    We have now established that he Church of Rome has unquestionably committed fornication with the kings of the earth, which resulted in her wielding of the cup filled with the abominations of the earth. We have also established that Sun worship played an extensive roll in filling this cup of abominations. This would include the fact that Sunday sacredness was established through this union of apostate Christianity and Sun worshipping paganism. Thus, Sunday sacredness, is as much of an abomination to God, as is any other of the pagan rites and ceremonies adopted by apostate Christianity. Let us move on to the establishment of the fact, that the Church of Rome is responsible for the blood of the saints.

    continued in next post
  13. Kamoroso

    Kamoroso New Member

    Feb 17, 2003
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    The Blood of the Saints

    Excerpts from FACTS OF FAITH, Christian Edwardson

    “The Cathohc Church is a respecter of conscience and of liberty .... She has, and she loudly proclaims that she has, a ‘horror of blood.’ Nevertheless when confronted by heresy she does not content herself with persuasion; arguments of an intellectual and moral order appear to her insufficient, and she has recourse to force, to corporal punishment, to torture. She creates tribunals like those of the Inquisition, she calls the laws of the State to her aid, if necessary she encourages a crusade, or a religious war and all her ‘horror of blood’ practically culminates into urging the secular power to shed it, which proceeding is almost more odious-for it is less frank-than shedding it herself. Especially did she act thus in the sixteenth century with regard to Protestants. Not content to reform morally, to preach by example, to convert people by eloquent and holy missionaries, she lit in Italy, in the Low Countries, and above all in Spain the funeral piles of the Inquisition. In France under Francis I and Henry II, in England under Mary Tudor, she tortured the heretics, whilst both in France and Germany during the second half of the sixteenth and the first half of the seventeenth century if she did not actually begin, at any rate she encouraged and actively aided, the religious wars. No one will deny that we have here a great scandal to our contemporaries .... “Indeed, even among our friends and our brothers we find those who dare not look this problem in the face. They ask permission from the Church to ignore or even deny all those acts and institutions in the past which have made orthodoxy compulsory.’’- ’’ The Catholic Church, the Renaissance, and Protestantism,’’ pp. 182-134. London: 1908. This book bears the sanction of the Roman Catholic authorities, and of their “censor.”

    Pope Gregory IX (1227-1241) made the following decree for the destruction of all heretics, which is binding on civil rulers: “Temporal princes shall be reminded and exhorted, and if needs be, compelled by spiritual censures, to discharge every one of their functions: and that, as they desire to be reckoned and held faithful, so, for the defence of the faith, let them publicly make oath that they will endeavor, bona fide with all their might, to extirpate from their territories all heretics marked by the Church; so that when anyone is about to assume any authority, whether spiritual or temporal, he shall be held bound to confirm his title by this oath. And if a temporal prince, being required and admonished by the Church, shall neglect to purge his kingdom from this heretical pravity, the metropolitan and other provincial bishops shall bind him in fetters of excommunication; and if he obstinately refuse to make satisfaction this shall be notified within a year to the Supreme Pontiff, that then he may declare his subjects absolved from their allegiance, and leave their lands to be occupied by Catholics, who, the heretics being exterminated, may possess them unchallenged, and preserve them in the purity of the faith”-”Decretalium Gregorii Papae Noni Conpilatio,” Liber V, Titulus VII, Capitulum XIII, (A Collection of the Decretals of Gregory IX, Book 5, Title 7, Chapter 13), dated April 20, 1619.

    The sainted Catholic doctor, Thomas Aquinas, says: “If counterfeiters of money or other criminals are justly delivered over to death forthwith by the secular authorities, much more can heretics, after they are convicted of heresy, be not only forthwith excommunicated, but as surely put to death.”-’’ Summa Theologica,” 2a, 2ac, qu. xi, art. iii.

    Dr. J. Dowling says:
    “From the birth of Popery in 606, to the present time, it is estimated by careful and credible historians, that more than .fifty millions of the human family, have been slaughtered for the crime of heresy by popish persecutors, an average of more than forty thousand religious murders for every year of the existence of Popery”-”History of Romanism,” pp. 54I, 542. New York: 1871.

    W. E. H. Lecky says: “That the Church of Rome has shed more innocent blood than any other institution that has ever existed among mankind, will be questioned by no Protestant who has a competent knowledge of history. The memorials, indeed, of many of her persecutions are now so scanty, that it is impossible to form a complete conception of the multitude of her victims, and it is quite certain that no power of imagination can adequately realize their sufferings.’’-’’ History of the Rise and Influence of the Spirit of Rationolism in Europe,” Vol. II, p. 32. London: Longmans, Green, and Co., 1910.

    John Lothrop Motley, speaking of papal persecution in the Netherlands, says: “Upon February 16, 1568, a sentence of the Holy Office [the Inquisition] condemned all the inhabitants of the Netherlands to death as heretics .... A proclamation of the king, dated ten days later, confirmed this decree of the Inquisition, and ordered it to be carried into instant execution .... This is probably the most concise death warrant that was ever framed. Three millions of people, men, women, and children, were sentenced to the scaffold in three lines”- ” The Rise of the Dutch Republic,” (2-vol. ed.) Vol. I, p. 626. New York.

    Many Roman Catholic authors today have tried to prove that their church does not sanction persecution, but facts of history are too plain to be denied. Eternity alone will reveal what God’s dear children suffered during the Dark Ages. Accordingly as the Papacy attained to power, the common people became more oppressed, until “the noon of the Papacy was the midnight of the world”-”History of Protestantism,” J. A. Wylie, LL.D., Vol. I, p. 16. London.

    The following excerpts are from ROMANISM AND THE REFORMATION by H. Grattan Guiness.

    As I shall have to recur to this subject when treating of St. John’s foreview of Romanism, I will add nothing further on this point. I have said enough to show, that this sixth mark of the little horn attaches most distinctly to the Papacy, and indicates it alone among all the powers that have ever held sway on the Roman earth. It has martyred by millions the saints of God, the best and holiest of men. Its persecuting edicts range over the entire period of its existence; the present pope has endorsed them by his approval of the syllabus of Pius IX., and he threw over them the mantle of infallibility. ( page 46 )

    In the sunny south of France, in Provence and Catalonia, lived the Albigenses. They were a civilized and highly educated people. Among these people there sprang up an extensive revival of true religion, and one of its natural effects was a bold testimony against the abominations of apostate Rome. Here is Sismondi’s History of the Albigenses. On page 7 he says of them and of the Vaudois: “All agreed in regarding the Church of Rome as having absolutely perverted Christianity, and in maintaining that it was she who was designated in the Apocalypse by the name of the whore of Babylon.” Rome could not endure this testimony; she drew her deadly sword and waged war against those who bore it. In the year 1208 the Albigenses were murderously persecuted. Innocent III (what a mockery his name!) employed the crusaders in this dreadful work. The war of extermination was denominated sacred. The pope’s soldiers prosecuted it with pious ardor; men, women, and children were all precipitated into the flames; whole cities were burned. In Beziers every soul was massacred; seven thousand dead bodies were counted in a single church, where the people had taken refuge; the whole country was laid waste; an entire people was slaughtered, and the eloquent witness of these early reformers was reduced to the silence of the sepulcher. ( page 122 )

    This folio volume is a faithful history of the Waldenses, written 217 years ago, by the Waldensian pastor Leger. It contains his portrait. I have often looked at it with interest. The countenance is scarred with suffering, but full of spiritual light. Leger tells with simple clearness the story of the Waldenses from the earliest times, quoting from ancient and authentic documents. He gives in full their confession of faith, and narrates the history of their martyrdoms, including the dreadful massacre in the vale of Lucerna, in 1655, of which he himself was an eye witness. This book was written only fourteen years after that massacre. It contains numerous depositions concerning it, rendered on oath, and long lists of the names of those who were its victims. It gives also plates depicting the dreadful ways in which they were slaughtered. These plates represent men, women, and children being dismembered, disemboweled, ripped up, run through with swords, impaled on stakes, torn limb from limb, flung from precipices, roasted in flames. They are almost too horrible to look at. And this was only one of a long series of massacres of the Waldenses extending through 600 painful years. ( pages 123& 124 )

    Even the Romanists themselves shame you in their clear-sighted comprehension of the issues of this question. Cardinal Manning says, “The Catholic Church is either the masterpiece of Satan or the kingdom of the Son of God.” Cardinal Newman says, “A sacerdotal order is historically the essence of the Church of Rome; if not divinely appointed, it is doctrinally the essence of antichrist.” In both these statements, the issue is clear, and it is the same. Rome herself admits, openly admits, that if she is not the very kingdom of Christ, she is that of antichrist. Rome declares she is one or the other. She herself propounds and urges this solemn alternative. You shrink from it, do you? I accept it. Conscience constrains me. History compels me. The past, the awful past rises before me. I see THE GREAT APOSTASY, I see the desolation of Christendom, I see the smoking rains, I see the reign of monsters; I see those vice-gods, that Gregory VII, that Innocent III, that Boniface VIII, that Alexander VI, that Gregory XIII, that Pius IX; I see their long succession, I hear their insufferable blasphemies, I see their abominable lives; I see them worshipped by blinded generations, bestowing hollow benedictions, bartering lying indulgences, creating a paganized Christianity; I see their liveried slaves, their shaven priests, their celibate confessors; I see the infamous confessional, the mined women, the murdered innocents; I hear the lying absolutions, the dying groans; I hear the cries of the victims; I hear the anathemas, the curses, the thunders of the interdicts; I see the racks, the dungeons, the stakes; I see that inhuman Inquisition, those fires of Smithfield, those butcheries of St. Bartholomew, that Spanish armada, those unspeakable dragonnades, that endless train of wars, that dreadful multitude of massacres. I see it all, and in the name of the ruin it has wrought in the Church and in the world, in the name of the truth it has denied, the temple it has defiled, the God it has blasphemed, the souls it has destroyed; in the name of the millions it has deluded, the millions it has slaughtered, the millions it has damned; with holy confessors, with noble reformers, with innumerable martyrs, with the saints of ages, I denounce it as the masterpiece of Satan, as the body and soul and essence of antichrist. ( page 146 )

    On the other hand, post-Reformation times have been times of Papal reaction and revolution. In the first place, the Protestant Reformation was encountered by a tremendous Papal reaction, the rising wave of life and liberty was met by a counterwave of resistance. Hardly was the ship of a Protestant Church set free and launched upon the deep than there arose a mighty tempest. The resurrection of the slain “witnesses” of Christ in the person of the reformers was answered by a resurrection of all the powers of the pit. The awakening of men’s souls brought war, ecclesiastical andcivil, a war of anathemas and a war of extermination. Swords flashed forth, flames were kindled; Rome rose in its anger and its might, and did wondrously. She thundered excommunications, she slaughtered millions; not without an awful struggle would the prince of darkness give up his kingdom. No! Look to it, ye brave reformers; ye will need the armory of heaven and its help, for the hosts of hell are roused against you. Ye may conquer, but it shall be through strife and anguish, and seas of blood. ( pages 147&148 )

    Excerpts from Christ and Antichrist, Samuel J. Cassels

    Mede has calculated from good authorities, “that in the war with the Albigenses and Waldenses there perished of these people, in France alone, 1,000,000. From the first institution of the Jesuits to the year 1580, a little more than thirty years, 900,000 orthodox Christians were slain. In the Netherlands alone, the Duke of Alva boasted, that within a few years he had. dispatched to the amount of 36,000 souls, and those all by the hand of the common executioner. In the space of scarce thirty years, the Inquisition destroyed by various kinds of torture, 150,009 Christians.” Gibbon states it as a fact, though a melancholy one, that Papal Rome has shed immensely more Christian blood, than Pagan Rome had ever done. Hegives but one illustration; that, however, a fearful one. “In the Netherlands alone,” says he, “more than 100,000 of the subjects of Charles V., are said to have suffered by the hands of the executioner.” ( Rome, chapter 16. )

    Nor let it be said, that much of this bloodshed is to be ascribed to European princes’ and magistrates. With equal justice might the Jew affirm, that Jesus of Nazareth was condemned by Pilate, and executed by Roman soldiers. God, however, has charged the blood of his Son upon the Jews, by whose malignity and devisings Christ was crucified. Much more then, are the torrents of blood shed in Europe to be ascribed to the Papacy, to the Catholic church. These princes and magistrates were Catholic subjects, and they only executed the mind and will of the church. They were instigated by priests, yea, by the Pope himself. They were often complained of as being too tardy and too merciful; yea, some of them were involved in ruin, along with their heretical subjects, for their forbearance. Those of them too, who were most ferocious, who effected most brutally the work of ruin, received from Catholic dignitaries, and even from the Pope, the greatest amount of commendation. Thus Monfort, Catharine de Medicis, Charles IX., (whose remorse before death caused the blood to ooze from the pores of his body!) Louis XIV., etc., were congratulated by the Gregories, and innocents of their times, as faithful and zealous sons of the church, and as worthy the peculiar favor of heaven. This alliance, however, or rather identity, between the Papacy and policy of Europe in persecuting the saints, is matter of express and repeated prophecies. “These have one mind,” says John, “and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.” Again, ”For God has put it into their hearts, to fulfill his will, and to agree and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.” Revelation 17. ( Christ and Antichrist, Samuel J. Cassels )

    VOLUME 1
    by David Benedict (Pages 28-30)


    This church, among other enormities, is covered with the blood of saints, which is crying for vengeance on its polluted head. The murders and cruelties of which this bloody community has been guilty, can be but briefly touched upon here; but it is supposed, if I mistake not, that three million lives have been sacrificed to the persecuting rage of the papal power. Among these, upwards of a million were of the people called Waldenses or Albigenses.
    On the fatal night of St. Bartholomews, August 24, 1572, about seventy thousand persons were murdered in Paris, in the most barbarous manner, by the influence of the pope, and by the instrumentality of the bloodthirsty Charles IX.
    Within thirty years, there were murdered in France 59 princes, 148 counts, 234 barons, 147,518 gentlemen, and 760,000 persons of inferior rank in life, but whose blood equally called for justice. Three hundred thousand of these were murdered in a few years, by that furious catholic, Charles IX.
    The massacre of St. Bartholomews happened in the following manner; a match was concluded between Henry, (afterwards Henry IV) the young king of Navarre, a protestant, and the French King’s sister. The heads of the protestants were invited to celebrate the nuptials at Paris, with the infernal view of butchering them all, if possible, in one night. This horrid scene is thus described by the author of the Trial of Antichrist: “Exactly at midnight on the eve of St. Bartholomews, (so called) 1572, the alarm bell was rung in the Palais Royale, as the signal of death. About five hundred protestant barons, knights and gentlemen, who had come from all parts to honor the wedding, were, among the rest, barbarously butchered in their beds. The gentlemen, officers of the chamber, governors, tutors, and household servants of the king of Navarre, and prince of Conde, were driven out of the chambers where they slept in the Louvre, and being in the court, were massacred in the king’s presence. The slaughter was now general throughout the city, and as Thuanus writes, “that the very channels ran down with blood into the river.” This was, however, magnified as a glorious action, and the king, who was one of the most active murderers, boasted that he had put 70,000 heretics to death. I might quote the words of a French author, who wrote the history of France, from the reign of Henry II. to Henry IV. and say, “How strange and horrible a thing it was, in a great town, to see at least 60,000 men with pistols, pikes, cutlasses, poniards, knives, and other bloody instruments, run, swearing and blaspheming the sacred Majesty of God, through the streets and into houses, where most cruelly they massacred all, whomsoever they met, without regard of estate, condition, sex, or age. The streets paved with bodies cut and hewed to pieces; the gates and entries of houses, palaces, and public places, dyed with blood. Shouting and hallooings of the murderers, mixed with continual noise of pistols and calivers discharged; the pitiful eries and shrieks of those that were murdering. Slain bodies cast out of the windows upon the stones, and drawn through the dirt. Strange noise of whistling, breaking of doors and windows with bills and stones. The spoiling and sacking of houses. Carts, some carrying away the spoils, and others the dead bodies, which were thrown into the river Seine, all now red with blood, which ran out of the town and from the king’s palace.” While the horrid scene was transacting, many priests ran about the city, with crucifixes in one hand and daggers in the other, to encourage the slaughter.” (Trial of Antichrist, p. 134-5.)

    In the short reign of the ever to be execrated popish Mary, queen ofEngland, there were burnt in that kingdom, one archbishop, four bishops, twenty-one preachers, eight gentlemen, eighty-four artificers, a hundred husbandmen and laborers, twenty-six wives, twenty widows, nine unmarried women, two boys and two infants. Forty thousand perished in the Irish massacre, in 1641. In a very short time, there were hanged, burned, buried alive, and beheaded, 50,000 persons in the Netherlands.
    The single order of Jesuits alone are computed, in the space of thirty or forty years, to have put to death 900,000 christians, who deserted from popery. And the Inquisition, the bloody instrument of papal vengeance, in the space of about thirty years, destroyed, by various torture, 150,000. (Trial of Antichrist throughout.)

    No doubt, the above research doesn’t even scratch the surface of information pertaining to the blood of the saints, in the annals of history concerning the Church of Rome. There is no question then, that this third identifying mark was strikingly fulfilled by the history of the Church of Rome. The writer contends that he has proven beyond doubt, that the Church of Rome is Babylon the great, and the Mother of harlots which the scriptures we are examining speak of. She is that city which will reign above all the others of this earth, and above a world in rebellion against God. Let us now examine the second angel’s message in light of these established facts.

    Bye for now Y. b. in C. Keith
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Aug 27, 2002
    Likes Received:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Well - everyone knows I would agree with Keith Kamaroso -- but in this case I am also agreeing with Dr. Bob -- so that is something new.

    In Christ,

  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Aug 27, 2002
    Likes Received:
    Non Baptist Christian
    In Matt 23 Christ said that He WOULD SEND prophets to Jerusalem and that they WOULD (future tense) persecute and kill them.

    Here we see that Jerusalem IS predicted (future to Christ's day) to KILL prophets!

    The problem is that these are "prophets" that GERAD claims "do not exist" when he makes statements like "Check and see - NO prophets die in Rome". He is DISCOUNTING the NT prophets POST cross!


    And who ARE Those prophets??

  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Aug 27, 2002
    Likes Received:
    Non Baptist Christian
    And what IS a prophet?

    God's OWN definition of a prophet.

    Notice that God defines a prophet as one whom HE communicates with DIRECTLY
    by Dream/Vision. The CONTENT of the Dream or vision is NOT the determining factor
    except that we are to TEST it for truth, accuracy, harmony with scripture.

    Notice that Moses (ALSO an author of scripture) is the EXCEPTION based on the WAY God DIRECTLY communicated with Moses - it was EVEN MORE DIRECT than would be expected by GOD's definition of a Prophet. The method of communicating is the SOLE determining factor in the DEFINITION. But not in the TEST of a prophet.

    [ September 02, 2005, 07:18 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Aug 27, 2002
    Likes Received:
    Non Baptist Christian
    #1. Notice that all those prophets were primarily NOT in Jerusalem.

    #2. Notice that Jerusalem DOES NOT EXIST after 70 AD and John writes AFTER 70 AD!

    #3. Notice that the Pagan Roman and Papal Roman empires created a HISTORIC time of persecution of the saints.

    #4. Notice that the City of Rev 17 is the "City of Seven Hills" -- Rome.

    #5. Notice that in 1Peter 5 EVEN the RCC admits that "Babylon" is the name for the city of Rome used by the NT saints!!

    #6. Notice that this same code phrase for Rome is used in Rev 17.

    #7. Notice that the church in Rev 12 is the "PURE church" (pure woman) vs the corrupted church of Rev 17. Notice that James 4 calls a compromised church - an adulterer.

    It is impossible to ignore the slaughter of millions of Christians in the dark ages as "not worth mentioning in the scope of NT post cross world history".

    The fact is that the persecuted church and the subsequent landmark protestant reformation are among the MAJOR and most defining aspects of Gospel world history post cross - for 2000 years following the cross!

    How can this be ignored by any Christian today??

    EVEN the RCC HERSELF admits that the NT symbol for ROME was "Babylon"

    What more do you need besides those two boats and a helicopter as "your sign"??

    In Christ,

  18. natters

    natters New Member

    Jul 23, 2004
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    I'm not dogmatic about Jerusalem being "Babylon", but I think it's a real possibility.

    Many were, as were many saints.

    There is some significant support that Revelation was written before A.D. 70. Also, another future destruction of Jerusalem is not impossible.

    Jerusalem also has a historic time of persecution of the saints. Jesus himself said so, in the gospels.

    Jerusalem also has seven hills.

    That does not mean a codename cannot be used for two (or more) different cities.

    There are dozens of places in the OT where Jerusalemm, and Israel in general, is called a whore, adulteress, etc.
  19. Kamoroso

    Kamoroso New Member

    Feb 17, 2003
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    Revelation 18 16And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls! 17For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off, 18And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city! 19And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate. 20Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her. 21And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. 22And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; 23And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. 24And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

    It is not just the saints and prophets blood that the great city is guilty of, but also the blood of all that were slain upon the earth. Babylon is a symbol of those who are in rebellion against God in the earth. The same spirit that controls Babylon, which is that great city, is the same spirit of rebellion that was in Satan in heaven, that he brought to earth with him. This spirit of rebellion has brought all death upon this world, and will climax in a world wide confederation of humanity in rebellion against God before He returns. This confederation will be lead by that great city, that is Babylon, which is verily Rome.

    Make no mistake about it, the church of Rome is gaining political power and influence in this world daily. She will lead this world into rebellion against God through the establishment of her false doctrines as law, upon all. In this endeavor, she will have the willing, and enthusiastic aid of apostate Protestantism, which is now, and is ever increasingly seeking political clout in this world also. Both, having abandoned the power of the Holy Spirit, are always seeking greater power from the state.

    Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith
  20. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Aug 20, 2002
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    I vote for NOT Jerusalem.
    Revelaltion mentions Jerusalem how many times?

    I really have heartburn with people who spam this blessed
    BB (Baptist Board). I've seen the preterists flood boards
    before with the opinions, guesses, hunches, and other
    volumous words OF OTHERS. Is there not a preterist who can
    type among us? I don't want to hear from professionals,
    I want to hear from those who post here. I'm not a professionl
    futurist. Come on fellow futurists, let us not let this
    board fall over dead from the weight of OFF-BOARD preterists.

    Gerad: //Preterism stands on solid ground.//

    Sorry Sir, but multipling the quicksand by 50-fold
    does NOT make it Rock. In fact, the more quicksand that is around
    the faster it can suck you under.
    Preterism is flawed logic, unGodly heresy, and other bad stuff
    i'm not allowed to say here. However, I'll not provide 140K a
    day of off-board arguments out of respect for the owner of this
    board. Now if you done gone and wrote these long posts, now would
    be a good time to mention you are the author.

    Gerad: Thank you for not flooding the board with arguments
    from the blue.

    Gerad: //You have to plug yourself into the TIMEFRAME
    that Revelation was written, which was sometime
    "shortly" before 70 A.D., ... //

    Tee Hee, a prophecy written after the seige of Judea started
    but before the climax. Actually the data I've got suggests a
    writing date of 96AD - 26 years after the 70AD destruction of
    the Temple in Jerusalem (BTW, Jerusalem has been continuously
    inhabited since the time of Ezra. Large parts of it were
    destroyed after the Jewish rebellions of 67AD and 135AD.
    Since 70AD until the fall of the Eastern Roman Empire in
    the mid 400s, The Roman Legions camped atop Temple Mount.

    So, if Revelation was written in 96AD and was about the destruction
    of Jerusalem 67-79AD, then it is a history book, not a prophecy book.
    Of course, a preterist HAS to have the book written prior to 70AD.
    Sorry, Bud, but God plans centuries ahead of time, he doesn't
    have predictions written the night before the big time event.