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Featured The Inward True Jew

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by tyndale1946, Mar 21, 2023.

  1. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Romans 2: 28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

    29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


    A poster and I had a discussion on my OP No Contact From The Outside World and what it amounts to is the poster from my understanding of then all Israel shall be saved is talking about race not grace... So atomically speaking all us males who have been circumcised have had a Jewish procedure done on us... That does not make us Jewish, we are not of that race... When Christ saved those who are true Israelites it is also by grace not race... And God alone makes a True Jew... Are Women not include they have never been circumcised?... Will there be an all boys club in Heaven?... They maybe of the race but never the procedure... What about the Gentiles, according this poster. they're left out. the poster included... What about Paul was he talking about natural circumcision?... To me this is poor exergesis and rightly dividing the word of truth is left out... Brother Glen:)

    Revelation 7: 9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

    10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.


    All are spiritual Jews and Gentiles by grace not race!
     
    #1 tyndale1946, Mar 21, 2023
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2023
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  2. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    If you are referring to me, I connected Romans 2 and Romans 9 that show us the true Israel of God is all who are justified by faith in the Promised One, Christ Jesus. I then showed you that Israel in Romans 11 is the true Israel of God, which is why both Jews and Gentiles are saved by God's grace until the last of the elect come to salvation by grace alone.
    The book of Revelation shows us this same truth.
     
  3. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Cite the passages in Ro 2, 9, 11, please, that says OUR faith in Christ is what makes us 'the true Israel of God'.

    True Jews do the things of the law because they have the law written in their hearts:

    13
    for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
    14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
    15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2

    No mention of OUR faith there.

    True Jews are circumcised with a circumcision not made with hands:

    29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Ro 2

    No mention of OUR faith there.

    True Jews are born from above, the heavenly Jerusalem:

    26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother.

    No mention of OUR faith there.

    True Jews are 'made ready at the quarry' and built up a spiritual house:

    5 ye also, as living stones, are built up a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 2

    No mention of OUR faith there.

    Show me Austin, scripture, that states OUR faith in Christ is what made us Jews. You Reformed Calvinists are supposed to carry the banner of 'regeneration BEFORE faith', but seems to me you've lost your way.
     
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  4. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    First, I am under no obligation to show you exact wording as you demand.
    Second, it was the faith God gifted us that justified us. It is God that elected us and caused us to be His Israel as chosen ones.

    *Romans 2:28-29*
    For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

    *Romans 9:6-8*
    But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

    *Romans 11:2-6,11-12,16*
    God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” But what is God’s reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

    So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!

    If the dough offered as first fruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.


    *Romans 3:20-26*
    For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
     
  5. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    I'm a Spiritual Jew...of the seed of Abraham, Spiritual Israel.

    My heart was circumcised, by the Spirit, in The New Birth.


    "But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter"'.

    I'm not Reformed, but I am a foremost proponent of The Eternal Doctrines of Grace, which simply systematize various Doctrines in God's Word.

    "We think it has been shown, however, that if the objection considered above can lie against the Calvinistic system, it can be alleged with as much reason against the Bible: and Calvinism is content to stand or fall with the Bible."

    As to my being referred to as a Calvinist, "of course, it will be understood that the term, Calvinism, is used in conformity to custom and not to imply that the doctrines embraced in it originated with the Genevan Reformer.

    "The people profess to yield themselves with humble submission to the teachings of God’s word, and they will say to him and to all others like him, "Let God be true, but every man a liar."

    from: Predestination

    This is, a 'regeneration BEFORE faith' banner, at this link embedded in the title:

    Have you ever heard of anyone that "prayed for Justification"?
     
    #5 Alan Gross, Mar 21, 2023
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2023
  6. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    John 1:12-13; But as many as received him,
    to them gave he power to become the sons of God,
    even to them that believe on his name:

    13 Which were born, not of blood,
    nor of the will of the flesh,
    nor of the will of man,
    but of God.

    John 15:3; Now ye are clean
    through the word which I have spoken unto you.

    I Peter 1:23; Being born again, not of corruptible seed,
    but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever.

    John 3:3; 5-8; Jesus answered and said unto him,
    Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
    Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

    5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
    Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit,
    he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

    8 The wind bloweth where it listeth,
    and thou hearest the sound thereof,
    but canst not tell whence it cometh,
    and whither it goeth:
    so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

    Romans 9:16; So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth,
    but of God that sheweth mercy.

    I Cor. 4:15; For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ,
    yet have ye not many fathers:
    for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

    Eph. 2:10; 4:24; For we are his workmanship,
    created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


    And that ye put on the new man,
    which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

    I Thess. 1:5; For our gospel came not unto you in word only,
    but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance;


    as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

    Titus 3:5-6; Not by works of righteousness which we have done,
    but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

    6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

    James 1:18; Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth,
    that we should be a kind of first fruits of his creatures.

    The foregoing scriptures prove without a shadow of a doubt
    that The Work of REGENERATION
    is wholly a Work of God the Holy Spirit, through The WORD,


    logically before God Enables the sinner to Spiritually REPENT and Hear the Gospel.
     
  7. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Is that the only scripture you've got
    in your whole Systematic Body of Theology and Divinity?

    No scripture is of any private interpretation.

    Pick you out a couple of more there 'ol feller.

    ...

    No wait. I see a couple more you've got there...

    Never mind.

    ...

    Have you ever heard of anyone that "prayed for Justification"?

    Or "help me work Lord, in a way that I can be Justified"?

    Or "help me Lord, so that I can be Justified, by my works"?

    Have you ever "prayed for Justification"?

    Wonder why, if not?


    ...


    Good morning, have a nice day.
     
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  8. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    austinc

    I would disagree, It was the Christ God gave for His People that Justified them Isa 53:11

    11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

    Rom 5:9

    9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

    And those so Justified are given Faith to come into the knowledge of it, hence Justified by Faith, which has Christ as its object. So faith in a causative sense doesnt Justify anyone, Christ does, faith merely makes it known to the Justified.
     
  9. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    We are His People. Adams justification is my justification. Deborah's justification is my justification. We are justified by that faith, which God gifted to us that we might believe in His Promised, Anointed, Messiah, Yeshua, Jesus.
    The saints before the cross were looking forward. The saints after the cross are looking backward. We, all the true Israel of God, live by faith in the Anointed Christ redeeming us by His atoning sacrifice.
     
  10. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Believing Jews. Not said of believing gentiles.
     
  11. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    There is no distinction.
    *Galatians 3 : 27-29*
    For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.

    37, you are attempting to segregate where there is no segregation.
     
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  12. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    This sounds like works to me.
     
  13. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    God's redemption was never by works, it has always been by grace alone. God has always justified his chosen people by faith alone. Look at Romans 3, Galatians 3, and Hebrews 11.
     
  14. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    I tried to hammer this down, by using the 1677/89 London Confession of Faith ( it's all their info and in black/ my thoughts are in blue; this is a start).

    "1. Those whom God Effectually calls, he also freely justifies,

    God gives His saved children Justification.

    Romans 3:24 "Being justified freely by his grace
    through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus":

    Romans 8:30 "Moreover whom he did predestinate,
    them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified:
    and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

    God Justifies His saved children,
    not by or because He gives them Righteousness,


    "...not by infusing Righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins,

    Romans 4:5-8 "But to him that worketh not,
    but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly
    ,
    his faith is counted for righteousness.

    God Justifies the ungodly because He pardons their sins.

    The rest of the post is here:
    Have you ever heard of anyone that "prayed for Justification"?

    It goes on to say, after Jesus Pardons His children, He Justifies them, then He declares them Righteous, because they are Forgiven, like you mentioned on another thread about Isaiah 53.

    (His does this in this 'logical' order, although, right on the heels of one another, and sort of at the same time, chronologically).

    THEN, in there (logically) AFTER being Pardoned, Justified, & declared Righteous, the New Birth has taken place and the soul God has saved is Granted REPENTANCE and FAITH (Twin Doctrines).

    Any way you cut it Repentance and Faith are RESULTS of God's saving Grace.

    They can seem like they are at the same time, but Chronologically Faith/ Belief comes after God brings REGENERATION LIGHT of ETERNAL LIFE, to their soul.

    The post goes on to make a point of "faith", or "belief" being works and says this is "evangelical obedience".

    God is the CAUSE SALVATION and BELIEF by the BORN AGAIN SOUL is the RESULT.

    (AustinC can speak for himself. This is a contention of Bible believers insisting that God be Honored as the Cause of Salvation. I believe he would agree with the above/ while at the same time, you don't want to hear people sound like they are saying "faith", or "belief", initiates God to save, because they can't and so never have, never do, and never will.

    That post is an attempt to show that from the Book).

    God Justifies us because He has pardoned our sins by the blood of Jesus
    and it is then with our soul being in Christ that we,
    as saved Persons In Christ, Pardoned and Justified, have become Righteous,


    "...and by accounting, and accepting their Persons that are In Christ as Righteous;

    "...by accounting, and accepting the saved soul's Person,
    as they are NOW "IN CHRIST", as Righteousness,

    ... it is now THEIR PERSON that is In CHRIST, (not by their "believing or "faith",
    as in Romans 4:5;


    "but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly,
    his faith is counted for righteousness.
    "


    ...that is accounted, or credited, and accepted by God
    for their having Righteousness;)


    1 Corinthians 1:30-31 "But of him are ye in Christ Jesus,
    Who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness,
    and sanctification, and redemption:

    31 "That, according as it is written, He that glories, let him glory in the Lord."

    Romans 5:17-19 "For if by one man's offence death reigned by one;
    much more they which receive abundance of grace
    and of the gift of righteousness
    shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

    18 "Therefore as by the offence of one
    [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation;
    even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came]
    upon all men unto justification of life.

    19 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,
    so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

    There is no evangelical obedience of "having faith" or "believing",
    that is accounted or credited for the saved soul's Righteousness
    as the way they obtain their Righteousness before God;


    "not for anything wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ's sake alone,

    ...so, their Righteousness then is;

    "...not by imputing faith itself, the act of believing,
    or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their Righteousness;

    (or, in other words, by adding the word "works" and for clarity, by explanation;

    "...not by imputing an evangelical obedient "work" of faith itself,
    as their Righteousness;

    ...and not by imputing an evangelical obedient "work"
    in the act of believing,

    ...or any other evangelical obedience by them,
    as their Righteousness;), but because
    ;

    Philippians 3:8-9 "Yea doubtless, and I count all things [but] loss
    for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord:
    for whom I have suffered the loss of all things,
    and do count them [but] dung, that I may win Christ,

    9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness,
    which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ,
    the righteousness which is of God by faith:


    with "faith" being the means by which God gifts Righteousness:

    Ephesians 2:8-10 " For by grace are ye saved through faith;
    and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

    9 "Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus
    unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

     
    #14 Alan Gross, Mar 24, 2023
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2023
  15. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    No. 6, below, is all about the OP.

    Justification.

    From: the 1677/89 London Confession of Faith;


    1. Those whom God Effectually calleth, he also freely (a) justifieth, not by infusing Righteousness into them, but by (b) pardoning their sins, and by accounting, and accepting their Persons as (c) Righteous; not for any thing wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ's sake alone, not by imputing faith it self, the act of believing, or any other (d) evangelical obedience to them, as their Righteousness; but by imputing Christs active obedience unto the whole Law, and passive obedience in his death, for their whole and sole Righteousness, they (e) receiving, and resting on him, and his Righteousness, by Faith; which faith they have not of themselves, it is the gift of God.

    a Rom. 3.24. ch. 8.30.

    b Rom. 4.5,6,7,8. Eph. 1.7.

    c 1 Cor. 1.30,31. Rom. 5.17 18,19.

    d Phil. 3.8,9. Eph. 2.8,9,10.

    e Joh. 1.12. Rom. 5.17

    2. Faith thus receiving and resting on Christ, and his Righteousness, is the (f) alone instrument of Justification: yet it is not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving Graces, and is no dead faith, (g) but worketh by love.

    f Rom. 3.28.

    g Gal. 5.6 Jam. 2.17 22.26

    3. Christ by his obedience, and death, did fully discharge the debt of all those that are justified; and did by the sacrifice of himself, in the blood of his cross, undergoing in their stead, the penalty due unto them: make a proper, real and full satisfaction (h) to Gods justice
    in their behalf: yet in as much as he was given by the Father for them, and his Obedience and Satisfaction accepted in their stead, and both (i) freely, not for any thing in them; their Justification is only of Free Grace, that both the exact justice and rich Grace of God, might be (k) glorified in the Justification of sinners.

    h Heb. 10.14. 1 Pet. 1.18,19. Isa. 53.5,6.

    i Rom. 8.32. 2 Cor. 5.21.

    k Rom. 3.26. Eph. 1 6,7. ch. 2.7.

    4. God did from all eternity decree to (l) justified all the Elect, and Christ did in the fullness of time die for their sins, and rise (m) again for their Justification; Nevertheless they are not justified personally, untill the Holy Spirit, doth in due time (n) actually apply Christ unto them.

    l Gal. 3.8. 1 Pet. 1.2. 1 Tim. 2.6.

    m Rom. 4.25.

    n Col. 1.21;22. Tit. 3.4,5,6,7.

    5. God doth continue to (o) Forgive the sins of those that are justified, and although they can never fall from the state of (p) justification, yet they may by their sins fall under Gods (q) Fatherly displeasure; and in that condition, they have not usually the light of his Countenance restored unto them, untill they (r) humble themselves, confess their sins, beg pardon, and renew their faith, and repentance.

    o Mat. 6.12. 1 John 1.7.9.

    p Joh. 10 28.

    q Ps. 89.31,32,33.

    r Psal. 32:5. & 51. Mat. 26.75.

    6. The Justification of Believers under the Old Testament was in all these respects, (s) one and the same
    with the justification of Believers under the New Testament.


    s Gal. 3.9. Rom. 4.22,23,24.
     
    #15 Alan Gross, Mar 24, 2023
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2023
  16. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    That's odd that you say that, because I thought that is exactly what means.

    I am a (Spiritual) Jew.
     
  17. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    No such persons. Paul speaks of what it is to be a saved Jew. See Romans 1:16. To the Jew first.
    Jeremiah 9:26 and Romans 9:6.
     
    #17 37818, Mar 24, 2023
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  18. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    One of Paul's arguments in Romans is to knock down the prejudicial wall between Jews and Gentiles in the church. His argument for justification by faith is to show that in Christ there is no nationalism. The Church is the spiritual Israel.

    It seems odd to me that you would promote segregation when Paul does just the opposite in Galatians 3.
     
  19. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    I think that unless you are calling me common, still, I am a Jew, by Grace, per the O.P.

    I am still the Israel of God, right?

    Yes, he does in that text. Paul is distinguishing between a Jew and a Jew!

    Saying that a natural Jew was not automatically a saved Jew, a Jew inwardly.

    So, that covers the title to the original post, The Inward True Jew, however,
    it is not as if being a Jew inwardly can't be applied to a saved Gentile, also.

    There is a distinction where the text is to be interpreted as a Jew, but no segregation when applied to saved Gentiles, who are also saved Spiritual Jews, inwardly.

    Consider Peter's vision in which he is forbid to "call that common which God had cleansed;" that "the middle wall of partition is broken down;" that in regeneration, or the new man, "there is neither Jew nor Greek, circumcision nor uncircumcision, barbarian Scythian, bound nor free, but Christ is all and in all."

    This led me to consider the apostle's account of Abraham, Romans 4: 11, l2, 13. "As the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; and that the promise is of faith, that it might be by grace, to the end it might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all."

    And the apostle seemed to explain the whole matter, Romans 9: 5, 6, 7, 8. "They are not all Israel which are of Israel, neither because they are of the seed of Abraham, are they all children; that is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."

    I concluded, if being a Jew, inwardly, was true of the natural seed of Abraham, a believer, certainly it could be no less true of Gentile believers.

    So that it evidently appeared that while the Jews had their glory; but as the same apostle tells us, 2 Corinthians 3: 10, 11, this was as "no glory, if compared with the glory which excelleth. For if that which was done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."

    That is, as I understood it, all the carnal part of natural Jewish glory, overall, was swallowed up, and utterly set aside by the simplicity, spirituality, and liberality of the gospel era; and as it was formerly, "all were not Israel, which were of Israel, so now he is not a Jew which is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh: but he is a Jew, which is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter, whose praise is not of men but of God." Romans, 2: 28, 29.

    "If the first-fruits be holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root be holy, so are the branches; and if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive-tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive-tree," &c.

    That converted Gentiles stand on a level with believing Jews, I had already seen. That the peculiar form of the natural Jewish nation was abolished at the death of Christ, I found generally acknowledged: that being the "ministration which was to be done away," to make room for that "which was to remain;" so that I could not tell how to conceive of the saved Gentiles being separate from the saved Jew, even though the Jews had always, otherwise, represented a distinct, or distinguishable 'race'.

    By the root, then, I understood Abraham

    and by the branches his natural offspring

    by the wild olive the Gentiles in a natural state; who, upon receiving the grace of God (then, as saved Gentiles), became the spiritual branches of Abraham the father of the faithful: ( Spiritual Jews, inwardly) and were equally interested with his believing natural branches (saved Jews, inwardly) in all the special privileges of the covenant of grace,

    ...including the saved Gentiles being able to be refered to, as Jews, inwardly(?)
     
    #19 Alan Gross, Mar 24, 2023
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2023
  20. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like works to me. I understand that God Justified His People by Grace alone Rom 3:24

    24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

    The fact that Jesus died for one Justified them, redeemed them
     
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