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The KJV and The Deity of Jesus Christ

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by SavedByGrace, Feb 5, 2024.

  1. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    The KJV and The Deity of Jesus Christ

    This study is looking at the Greek grammar in a couple of passages in the New Testament, where the King James Version (KJV), is wrong in its translation from the Greek.

    Titus 2:13

    “Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God, and our Saviour Jesus Christ” (1611, edition)

    προσδεχόμενοι τὴν μακαρίαν ἐλπίδα καὶ ἐπιφάνειαν τῆς δόξης τοῦ μεγάλου Θεοῦ καὶ Σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ

    The KJV makes this to refer to two Persons, “the Great God”, as in God the Father; and “our Saviour Jesus Christ”. But this is not how the Greek construction has it. Note the unwarranted use of the comma after “God”, to show that two Persons are meant! In the Original Greek, there are no punctuations used.

    On Titus 2:13, the words of the Greek scholar, Dr George Winer, will suffice on how we should understand the words of the Apostle Paul;

    “In the above remarks it was not my intention to deny that, in point of grammar, Σωτηρoς ²μωv (our Saviour) may be regarded as a second predicate, jointly dependent on the article τoυ (the); but the dogmatic conviction derived from Paul's writings that this apostle cannot have called Christ the great God induced me to show that there is no grammatical obstacle to our taking the clause και Σωτ...Χριστoυ (from, 'and to Christ') by itself as referring to a second subject"

    (A Treatise on the Grammar of New Testament Greek, p.162. 1877 edition. - words in brackets are mine)

    I have chosen Dr Winer’s remarks on purpose, because though was a great Greek grammarian, his “theology” was anti Trinitarian, and being a Unitarian, did not accept the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ. In this note on this verse, it is clear that Dr Winer admits that in accordance with the Greek grammar, there is no doubt that Paul here calls Jesus Christ, both “the Great God and Saviour”. However, as admitted by Dr Winer, it was his “theology” that prevented him in accepting the fact, that Paul could and does call Jesus Christ, “the Great God”.

    It is evident, that because of the importance of this verse in direct testimony to the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ, some, for purely theological reasons, translate the Greek to suit them. So we have the New Testament by Dr George Noyes, where it reads, “of the great God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ”. Noyes was a Unitarian, so we cannot expect him to admit to the Deity of Jesus Christ! However, the 1985 Kingdom Interlinear Greek translation published by the Jehovah’s Witnesses, is very interesting. The English in the right-hand column, (In the narrower right-hand column of the pages will be found the 20th-century language New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures, p. 5) reads: "of our God and [the] Saviour Jesus Christ". [the] shows that it is not part of the text, but has been added to make “God” and “Saviour Jesus Christ”, as two distinct Persons! It is clear that the JW’s here admit to Jesus Christ being called “the Great God and Saviour”. This can also be seen in their other publication, the 1942 version of the Emphatic Diaglott, a Greek-English translation. Under the Greek text, the literal English reads, “of the great God and Savior of us Jesus Anointed”. The English in the right-hand column, reads, “the GLORY of our GREAT GOD and Savior Jesus Christ”. No one can doubt that this verse says that Jesus Christ IS the GREAT GOD, and Savior!

    It is evident from the construction of the sentence in the Greek, that the "first rule" laid down by Granville Sharpe, applies here.

    "When the copulative και (and) connects two nouns of the same case, if the article Ï (the) or any of its cases precedes the first of the said nouns or participles, and is not repeated before the second noun or participle, the latter always relates to the same person that is expressed or described by the first noun or participle; i.e, it denotes a further description of the first-named person"

    ( Granville Sharp; Remarks on the Uses of the Definitive Article in the Greek Text of the New Testament, Containing many proofs of the Divinity of Christ, page 8)

    This rules soundness can be seen in a couple of examples. In Ephesians 5:5, Paul writes, “τη βασιλεια του χριστου και θεου”, where we have the use of the one article “του”, and the copulative “και”. The natural way to understand this is, “the Kingdom of Christ and God”, as being of only the one Person. In 2 Thessalonians 1:12, Paul writes, “την χαριν του θεου ημων και κυριου ιησου χριστου”, literally, “the grace of our God and Lord Jesus Christ”. Again, the use of the one article “του”, and the copulative “και”, show that only one Person is meant!

    Instead of writing “τοῦ μεγάλου τοῦ Θεοῦ ἡμῶν καὶ Σωτῆρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ”; had Paul written, “τοῦ μεγάλου τοῦ Κυριoυ ἡμῶν καὶ Σωτῆρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ”. There would be no problem in anyone translating this into English as, “our Great Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ”!

    This takes us the next example of the error in the translation of the KJV

    2 Peter 1:1

    “Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us, through the righteousness of God, and our Saviour Jesus Christ” (1611)

    Συμεὼν Πέτρος δοῦλος καὶ ἀπόστολος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ τοῖς ἰσότιμον ἡμῖν λαχοῦσιν πίστιν ἐν δικαιοσύνῃ τοῦ Θεοῦ ἡμῶν καὶ Σωτῆρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ

    Like Titus 2:13, the KJV has translated this to mean two Persons, “of God”, the Father, and “our Saviour Jesus Christ”. Note the unwarranted use of the comma after “God”, to show that two Persons are meant! Which is not what the Greek grammar says. The same “rule” established by Granville Sharp, applies here.

    In 2 Peter 2:20, and 3:18, the Greek has, “του κυρίου ἡμῶν καὶ σωτῆρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ”. The KJV translates both as, “of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ” (1611), and “of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ”. The Greek in 1:1 is, “τοῦ Θεοῦ ἡμῶν καὶ Σωτῆρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ”, (1611) where the only difference is, in 1:1, we have “τοῦ Θεοῦ”, and in the other two places, “του κυρίου”. If in the latter two the Greek refers to only the one Person, then why in 1:1, where the Greek construction and wording is the same, it means two Persons?

    Again, even the JW’s Emphatic Diaglott, gets it right in the reading of the English in the right-hand column, which reads, “by the Righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ”

    Just two important texts on the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ, that the KJV has got wrong. This shows that those who hold to the view, that this version is “Inspired”, and “perfect”, is one that is based, not on facts, but personal sentiment!
     
  2. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    This study only looks at you being wrong. Sorry.

    The KJV doesn't. Why you do would be only a matter of suspicious conjecture.

    There is a difference between those two expressions and the wordings in the two verses that you have under attack, however, that "difference" is exactly, conclusively zero.

    So much for all of this KJV bashing session.

    Get used to it.

    Nope, they don't. Learn to read or step aside.

    Your disturbed lust for disparaging The Holy Bible
    is half-baked, insufferable, and unsuitable.

    Ahh, brainchild. Earth to brainchild. Come in, brainchild.
    Paging child. Dr. Brainchild....

    Let's reconstruct your comment this way:

    "in 1:1, where the Greek construction and wording is the same, it means"

    "only the one Person"

    AND IN....?

    "the latter two the Greek refers to only the one Person".

    BINGO! You got it right after all!

    We'll just pretend "nobody fell down". O.K.?

    There are a lot more important things to do in life
    than wishing you could find anything on God's Green Earth
    that is wrong with The Holy Bible, even if you only had to, as a direct act,
    bring these two really big deals into being instantaneously out of nothing,
    by fiat creation.

    It's still not worth it.

    It is not worth it...

    It'll not be worth it all...

    Trust me....
     
  3. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    Well grammatically you are correct. The KJV appears to separate the two.

    The problem is that punctuation use has changed over the past 400 years.

    Excessive punctuation was common in the 18th century: at its worst it used commas with every subordinate clause and separable phrase. Vestiges of this attitude are found in a handbook published in London as late as 1880. It was the lexicographers Henry Watson Fowler and Francis George Fowler, in The King’s English, published in 1906, who established the current British practice of light punctuation. Punctuation in the United States has followed much the same path as in Britain, but the rules laid down by American authorities have in general been more rigid than the British rules. Britannica

    Those that use the KJV have accustomed themselves archaic grammar.
    One wonders if their excessive use of punctuation also occurs with words.

    Rob
     
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  4. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    The 1611 edition of the KJV has a comma after God at 2 Peter 1:1 [God, and our Saviour Jesus Christ], and that comma seems to have remained in most KJV editions printed up to the 1769 Oxford edition. The 1743 Cambridge and 1760 Cambridge editions had actually removed it before the 1769. Even the first KJV edition printed in America in 1782 and KJV editions printed at Oxford in 1788 and in 1795 still have a comma after God at 2 Peter 1:1. How does this comma in most KJV editions up to the 1769 Oxford affect the understanding and interpretation of this verse? Concerning this verse in his 1633 commentary on 2 Peter, Thomas Adams observed: “Some read these words by disjoining them; of God, and of our Saviour,“ which would seem to refer to the rendering in the 1611.

    The 1611 edition of the KJV had a comma after God at Titus 2:13 [the great God, and our Saviour Jesus Christ]. The first KJV edition printed in America in 1782 and KJV editions printed at Oxford in 1788 and 1795 still have a comma after God at Titus 2:13. Scrivener observed: “In regard to weightier matters, the comma put by 1611 after “God” in Titus 2:13 is fitly removed by 1769 modern, that ‘the great God and our Saviour’ may be seen to be joint predicates of the same Divine person” (Authorized Edition, p. 87). The 1743 and 1760 Cambridge editions edited by F. S. Parris had removed the comma at Titus 2:13 before the 1769 Oxford followed them. Concerning Titus 2:13, J. H. Murray maintained that the KJV “makes it as if two persons were spoken of, the Father and the Son; where the Son only, in the original Greek, is mentioned” (Help, p. 64). Concerning the KJV’s rendering at this verse, Gordon Clark observed: “This allows the objector to separate the great God from our Lord Jesus Christ” (Trinity, p. 16).
     
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  5. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Gill gives an otherwise dead issue a mention of a couple of seconds,
    which is all it's worth and to not as some have waited 400 years and then claim
    "I believe my flesh, so God's been lying all along!"

    "and the glorious appearing of the great God, and our Saviour Jesus Christ;"
    not two divine persons, only one, are here intended;

    "for the word: rendered "appearing", is never used of God the Father, only of the second person; and the propositive article is not set before the word "Saviour", as it would, if two distinct persons were designed;

    "and the copulative "and" is exegetical, and may he rendered thus, "and the glorious appearing of the great God, even our Saviour Jesus Christ";

    "who, in the next verse, is said to give himself for the redemption of his people: so that here is a very illustrious proof of the true and proper deity of Christ, who will appear at his second coming; for of that appearance are the, words to be understood, as the great God, in all the glories and perfections of his divine nature; as well as a Saviour, which is mentioned to show that he will appear to the salvation of his people, which he will then put them in the full possession of; and that the brightness of his divine Majesty will not make them afraid: and this appearance will be a glorious one;

    "for Christ will come in his own glory, in the glory of his deity, particularly his omniscience and omnipotence will be very conspicuous; and in his glory as Mediator, which will be beheld by all the saints; and in his glory as a Judge, invested with power and authority from his Father,"

    "through the righteousness of God, and our Saviour Jesus Christ;"
    or "of our God, and Saviour Jesus Christ", as the Vulgate Latin and Ethiopic versions read; that is, of Christ Jesus, who is our God and Saviour:

    "so that here is a testimony of the deity of Christ, as well as of his character as a Saviour, who is an able and a willing one, a full, complete, suitable, and only Saviour: and the reason why he is so is because he is truly and properly "God"; and why he is so to us, because he is "our" God: wherefore by "righteousness" here, cannot be meant the goodness and mercy of God, as some think, though faith undoubtedly comes through that; nor the faithfulness of God making good his purpose and promise of giving faith to his elect, as others think: but the righteousness of Christ, which is not the righteousness of a creature, but of God; that is wrought out by one that is God, as well as man, and so answerable to all the purposes for which it is brought in..."
     
  6. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    What I have shown in the OP, is how the KJV has translated these verses, which clearly makes them speaking of TWO Persons, God the Father and Jesus Christ.

    In both places, the Greek grammar is clear that only ONE Person is meant, the Lord Jesus Christ

    What you are suggesting is what I have said in the OP, that grammatically ONE Person is meant. But this is not what the KJV reads
     
  7. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    as an alternate with a comma,

    as an alternate with a comma.

    A presupposition of "I hate God, therefore" has to brought along to take a comma and call God a liar, when the reading is simple literate English language meaning plainly exactly what it says the same way that the same words would be read and understood in a billion other contexts
     
  8. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    dude, what are you on about? :eek:
     
  9. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Unless you determine that a comma means
    "the words after this must be of a different subject matter, absolutely without exception", your attempt at using one to say the KJV lied about the Deity of Jesus Christ per the O.P. is a little shallow.

    Try something else with your diabolical goal in mind.

    There are versions very short on the Deity of Jesus Christ depending on you.

    Next question.
     
  10. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    The KJV did not lie about anything. they simply got it wrong in translating at times, as do other Versions

    Take a good example, Genesis 1:1, The KJV reads: "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth". However, in the Hebrew, "the heaven" is "haš·šā·ma·yim", which is in the masculine, "the heavens", together with "the earth", is "the entire universe"! This is a clear error in the KJV
     
  11. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Heaven or heavens in Genesis 1:1? | Creation Insights

    Have We Misunderstood Genesis 1:1?
     
    #11 37818, Feb 12, 2024
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2024
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  12. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    "Conclusion".

    "Here is the main take-away. The dependent-clause understanding
    of Genesis 1:1 is not grammatically easy; it is difficult and awkward.

    "The traditional understanding of Genesis 1:1 is grammatically easy,
    and the most basic principle for understanding any language
    is to follow the ease of the grammar.


    "The ancient translators were just as familiar with the grammatical issues
    as we are today, and they followed the ease of the grammar
    by rendering the passage in its most normal, traditional sense.

    "So the main question should not be,
    “Is there something in the Hebrew that the ancient translators missed?”
    That answer is clearly, “No.

    "The better, more humble question should be,
    “Is there something in the Hebrew we have missed?”

    "The traditional understanding of Genesis 1:1 is trustworthy.

    "In the absolute beginning God did indeed create the heavens
    and earth out of nothing, and as the rest of the chapter
    and Exodus 20:11 teach, He did it supernaturally
    by His word in six literal days."

    That's what's called, "Bible".
     
  13. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Alan, it would be much better for the soul, if you simply admitted that the KJV has human errors, as it is a human translation, like all the others!

    It is quite pointless in trying to defend that which cannot be defended, as Genesis 1:1, where the KJV is clearly WRONG!
     
  14. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Where is your rulebook on "the unwarranted use of a comma"
    and "to show that two Persons are meant"?

    Do you speak English?

    Where's the rule?

    Rulebook? Again? Author? Title? Page number?

    Are you saying that there is supposed to be something wrong
    with the KJV translation from the Greek?

    Why didn't you show that in the O.P.?

    Again? An error?

    Wrong? According to.....?

    An idea I'm your head that you have?

    I know you have some ideas about saying something's wrong.

    What is it?

    Just something "according to SavedByGrace, or what's up?

    You said something that you apparently clearly thinks and that's it.

    According to what?

    Someone that reads things? Or someone that just makes up things?

    I'm sure they appreciate you condescending down to share that.

    Prove it up.

    Here's your mission:

    Then, I had to suggest this.

    Now we've gone from a comma decimating the Deity of Christ,
    to heaven(s), one way or the other, causing The End of The World as we know it.

    That's too bad, man.
     
    #14 Alan Gross, Feb 13, 2024
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2024
  15. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    I don't know what you're getting at with these vast generalizations.

    1689 BAPTIST CONFESSION OF FAITH IN MODERN ENGLISH.

    Chapter 1 – The Holy Scriptures.

    "4. The authority of the Holy Scriptures obligates belief in them.

    "This authority does not depend on the testimony of any person or church
    but on God the author alone, who is truth itself.

    "Therefore, the Scriptures are to be received because they are the Word of God."

    "2 Peter 1:19–21; 2 Timothy 3:16; 1 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 John 5:9"

    I thought we were talking about a comma, or an 's'.

    So. Your whole point in all this is supposed to be that
    The KJV has to be brought down by any means real, or imagined,
    for all modern New Age/ NWT leaning versions to have any hope?

    Like that essentially every word of the KJV is untrustworthy error and mistakes?

    Guess again. As long as Just Guessing is your only Guessing Game.

    Patrick R. Briney, Ph.D.;

    "The issue is not with the language being Hebrew or Greek.

    "For example, Isaiah 45:18 says,
    “For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens.”

    "And the issue is not whether God created only a heaven or heavens.

    "The issue is whether the KJV translators were correct in choosing heaven,
    rather than heavens for Genesis 1:1.

    "In the beginning, on day one, one heaven was created.

    "On day 2, a firmament was created,
    and on day 4 the sun, moon, and stars were created.

    "With a correct understanding of when the heavens were created,

    "there is no contradiction between verses,

    "there is no need to debate one heaven in Genesis 1:1,

    "there is no need to second guess the KJV translators,

    "and there is no need to be concerned
    about the Hebrew and Greek languages."


    From 37818's Heaven or heavens in Genesis 1:1? | Creation Insights.
     
    #15 Alan Gross, Feb 13, 2024
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2024
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  16. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    At its note for 2 Peter 1:1, the Reformation Heritage KJV Study Bible noted: “Literally, ‘our God and Savior, Jesus Christ,‘ describing one divine person--the same Greek phrase appears in v. 11, but with ‘Lord” in place of ‘God.‘ Christ is Lord and God (John 1:1; 20:28; Rom. 9:5)“ (p. 1829). James Scholefield maintained that this verse has “the same construction as in verse 11” where it was rendered in the KJV as “of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ” (Hints, p. 157). A. T. Robertson wrote: “In 2 Peter 1:11 and 3:18, the pronoun ’our’ comes after ’Lord,’ but that makes no difference in the idiom. It is ’our Lord and Saviour,’ and it is so translated in the English versions. But we have precisely the same idiom in 2 Peter 1:1, ’our God and Saviour Jesus Christ’” (The Minister, p. 63). Robertson asserted: “The idiom compels the translation, ’our God and Saviour Jesus Christ” (p. 64). Concerning 2 Peter 1:1, Ralph Wardlaw noted in 1815: “An instance of construction, in every respect the same, occurs at the eleventh verse of this same chapter” (Discourses, p. 75). Wardlaw asserted: “It is just as improper to render the words in the first verse, ‘through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ,‘ (unless the appellations ‘God and our Saviour’ be understood as both connecting with ‘Jesus Christ’) as it would be to render those in this verse [1:11] ‘in the kingdom of the Lord and our Saviour Jesus Christ’” (p. 76).

    Do KJV-only advocates oppose the same measures and principles being applied to 2 Peter 1:1 as would be applied to 2 Peter 1:11?
     
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  17. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Hebrews 1:1-2, God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; . . .
     
    #17 37818, Feb 13, 2024
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2024
  18. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Boy, oh boy. If they'd have been here, you would have surely gottem today!
     
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