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The rapture

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Bro. Lee, Jul 25, 2001.

  1. ROBERTGUWAPO

    ROBERTGUWAPO Member

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    UFO cultists and believers believe in pretrib!

    UFO cultists believe that one day a big giant spaceship will hover above the earth and save all "believers" by teleporting all of them to the mother ship. "Jesus", an alien or higher being will then come down from the spaceship to fulfill the second coming.

    See the occultic connection?
     
  2. John Wells

    John Wells New Member

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    And post-tribers believe that Benny Hinn and Paul Crouch will lead the procession of believers to meet Jesus in the air, where they will all play a game of "Survivor!" :D

    Robert, I can make up good ones too. You are truly amazing!
     
  3. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    And then Christians believe that we will ALL die once (sorry, no death defying rapture) and then we will be judged and either spend eternity in heaven or in hell. (Hebrews 9:27)

    Joseph
     
  4. John Wells

    John Wells New Member

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    Joseph,

    Are you saying Hebrews 9:27 rules out a rapture? Whether there is a rapture or not, those alive when Jesus returns will escape a physical death. In two thousand years, no one has provided proof-positive for or against a rapture. So all we can do is voice our opinions, and I appreciate and respect yours!
     
  5. Joy

    Joy New Member

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    Joseph, not to keep you in the dark- I'll just give you quickly what I believe. I will have to give my Scriptural support later, as I've go to get the children ready for bed soon.

    I believe in a literal pre-trib, pre- mil rapture. I do not believe that it is too late for one to get saved after the rapture has occured. The reason for this is there are numerous verses about those who believe during the tribulation. Some are martyred, some are refused service because they refuse the mark of the beast. At the end of the tribulation, virtually everyone that is not a believer is killed at Armegeddon. There have to be living people to go into the Millenium- these are those who became Believers during the tribulation. Time does not end at this point, and there will still be people born that must make a decision to accept or reject Christ. God will primarily be working with the Jews again during this time, but that won't mean that Gentiles can't be saved.

    In those sensational movies, I also see all the children about 7 and younger disapear with the all of the Believers. I know that our God is a just God, and that His way is perfect, and He has a plan. I don't think in this case it is known to us. I do have problem with that notion, because, I don't think our children get a free ride to Heaven simply because we are Believers. Sobering thought!
     
  6. John Wells

    John Wells New Member

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    Joy2,

    Actually the Bible, I believe, clearly addresses the "too young to be responsible" issue. I've heard it refered to as "the age of innocense."

    Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." (Mat 19:14 NIV)

    And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. (Mat 18:3 NIV)

    It's been argued when answering "why would a loving God instruct the army of Israel to destroy entire wicked nations, even women and children," that by the children being killed before they reached an age of responsibility, they went to heaven instead of to hell where they would have gone if they had grown up, because everyone in those nations was wicked.

    Therefore, I believe "little children" and infirm people all go to heaven.
     
  7. Joy

    Joy New Member

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    I believe that in death, the " innocent " go to Heaven. I am unsure, because the Bible doesn't say, about the Rapture. I just prefer to say that we don't know. I am a mother of 2 small children, so I wish I had that reassurance, but the Bible just doesn't specifically give it. I just have to trust the LORD's sovereign plan on it, and do my job as a mother to teach my children of Christ.
     
  8. For His Name

    For His Name New Member

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    Wells ... sorry I didn't post earlier .. work a gazillion hours .. don't you know.

    I believe this passage in Ezekiel is not a literal passage. God is refering to "tying" the arms together (like they used to) so that folks cannot reach out to him. There is a wall between him and his children due to the lies being taught.

    .. Behold I am against your pillows .. ie. the ties (lies) being taught .. wherewith ye there hunt souls to make them fly ..

    Have you been able to find any reference to the rapture prior to the 1800's .. I haven't .. I am searching for it. Research my earlier post and you will find the "supposed prophet" that interpeted the rapture into the word was a lady .. a fortune teller.

    Satan is the author of confusion .. there is confusion regarding the rapturing of souls.
     
  9. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by For His Name:
    Have you been able to find any reference to the rapture prior to the 1800's .. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


    About AD 60, Paul referred to it in 1 and 2 Thessalonians. About AD 95 or so, John referred to it in Rev 3:10. Both of those predate the 1800s by about .... oh ... 1700 years or so.

    To call SAtan the author of the confusion about the rapture is very perjorative and unproductive. That fact that you disagree on the interpretation of passages does not mean that Satan influenced them. I could say that Satan is behind the post-trib/amill/post mill/ theories because of the implications those position have for the Word of God. Yet that would not further the discussion. Invoking Satan does not help.

    Rev 3:10 was mentioned earlier but the response to it was anemic. Consider this: from may mean out from within (emergence) but can also mean away from (exclusion). Cf. John 12:27; Acts 15:29; Heb 5:7. Second, John 17:15 is inconclusive. It may have the idea protected in the midst of [protected in the midst of attacks] but it could also be translated kept away from [exclude your disciples from the kind of activity that the evil one is engaged in (commentators seem to agree on this interpretation)]. Third, the parallel phrase in Jer 30:7 involves Israel and not the Church. An even closer parallel (sozo + ek) is found in Jas 5:20 with the meaning kept away from. It must mean that he will be kept from death, not restored in the midst of death. The exegesis when compared with other passages does not support a post trib rapture.

    A couple of additional points:

    1. John 14:1-3 makes little sense in a post trib rapture. In what sense do believers go to the Father's house, if they return immediately to rule with Christ on earth? Christ himself seems to teach by implication or at least presuppose a pre-trib rapture here. Wellsj referred to this earlier but no one that I have seen attempted to answer it.

    2. If a) the rapture is at the end of the trib, and if b) the rapture includes all the believers, and if c) all the unbelievers are destroyed at Armageddon, then who is left to populate the earth during the millennium? Points (b) and (c) are irrefutable. Point (a) is the point under discussion. Very simply put, if all three of these protases are true, then there is no one left to populate the earth during the millennium. In this case you are left with Christ ruling over nobody and Satan having no nations to deceive when he is released from the bottomless pit (Rev 20:7-9). The only way that there are people to populate the earth during the millennium is if there is a pre-trib rapture, then people saved during the tribulation who enter the millennial kingdom and populate the earth.

    [ August 01, 2001: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
     
  10. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Dear Pastor Larry,

    You posted...

    &gt;&gt;c) (if) all the unbelievers are destroyed at Armageddon&gt;&gt;

    Can this be proven, if so, what are the proof texts?

    HankD
     
  11. Chris Temple

    Chris Temple New Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> About AD 60, Paul referred to it in 1 and 2 Thessalonians. About AD 95 or so, John referred to it in Rev 3:10. Both of those predate the 1800s by about .... oh ... 1700 years or so. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Its important in discussing the rapture (or any other subject, of course) that meaning of terms be agreed upon by all. That the rapture (catching up) is taught in Scripture should be clear to all; the timing is what is up for debate. The idea of a pretrib, secret rapture did not exist before the early 19th century. It is an inferred doctrine, taught nowhere in Scripture. Nowhere. Not one explicit text teaches a pretrib, secret rapture. It occurs at the second Advent, which is the blessed hope of believers, not some secret whisking away from tribulation.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> To call Satan the author of the confusion about the rapture is very perjorative and unproductive. That fact that you disagree on the interpretation of passages does not mean that Satan influenced them. I could say that Satan is behind the post-trib/amill/post mill/ theories because of the implications those position have for the Word of God. Yet that would not further the discussion. Invoking Satan does not help. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    George Eldon Ladd explains the rise of pretribulationalism in his book, The Blessed Hope . That the first three centuries were characterized by a futurist, premil view is undoubted. The Middle Ages saw the rise of the historical view of eschatology, though still premil. This was so widely accepted in the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries that it became called “The Protestant View”.

    With the dawning of the 19th C, there was a return to futurism as a result of a backlash due to rising postmillennialism. This was in some sense a positive movement in that it brought focus back on the Second Coming of Christ, something that the postmils had downplayed (though not denied). Periodicals and prophetic conferences began to spring up.

    Some of these conferences were at Powerscourt House in Great Britain. It was here that some aspects of Darbyism was first discovered. Darbyism altered the truth of futurism by teaching a coming of Christ to secretly rapture the church before the tribulation and before Christ’s coming in glory to establish the millennial kingdom.
    This was completely foreign to historic belief, which had always rightly asserted just one Second Coming, not two.

    Full-fledged Darbyism or pretribulationalism began of course with the Plymouth Brethren. Darby and other Brethren members attended the Powerscourt House meetings and began teaching their new interpretation.

    Tregelles, himself a Brethren premil but who rejected Darbyism, relates that the idea of a secret rapture at a secret coming of Christ had its origin in an “utterance” in Edward Irving’s church. [ Ladd, page 41]. This was taken to be the voice of the Holy Spirit. Tregelles says “ It was from that supposed revelation that the modern doctrine and the modern phraseology respecting [the rapture] arose. It came not from the Holy Scripture, but from that which falsely pretended to be the Spirit of God”. Post-trib/amill/post mill/ positions never arose from a “spirit voice” revelation but rather from simple exegesis.

    The problem with pretrib rapturism is that it is an inferred doctrine that is not taught clearly and explicitly anywhere in Scripture. It is not the Blessed Hope – the Second Coming of Christ is. If a secret rapture was so key to eschatology, why did Christ not mention it once in his earthly ministry? Rather the Blessed Hope taught by Christ and all the disciples is the Second Coming, the destruction of the wicked, and the eternal state of believers forever with their Lord and God (John 14:1-3).

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> If a) the rapture is at the end of the trib, and if b) the rapture includes all the believers, and if c) all the unbelievers are destroyed at Armageddon, then who is left to populate the earth during the millennium? Points (b) and (c) are irrefutable. Point (a) is the point under discussion. Very simply put, if all three of these protases are true, then there is no one left to populate the earth during the millennium. In this case you are left with Christ ruling over nobody and Satan having no nations to deceive when he is released from the bottomless pit (Rev 20:7-9). The only way that there are people to populate the earth during the millennium is if there is a pre-trib rapture, then people saved during the tribulation who enter the millennial kingdom and populate the earth. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Or, that the millennium is now, as amills believe [​IMG]

    But a post-trib, premill friend of mine said this:

    The statement that point (c) is irrefuteable is simply false. There is no scripture that states that all the unbelievers in the World are destroyed at Armageddon. In fact Scripture explictly testifies to the opposite.

    Zecariah 14:16
    Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths.

    Daniel 7:11-12
    "Then I kept looking because of the sound of the boastful words which the horn was speaking; I kept looking until * the beast was slain, and its body was destroyed and given to the burning fire. " As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but an extension of life was granted to them for an appointed period of time.

    Ezekiel 36:36
    "Then the nations that are left round about you will know that I, the LORD, have rebuilt the ruined places and planted that which was desolate; I, the LORD, have spoken and will do it."

    Isaiah 2:4
    And He will judge between the nations, And will render decisions for many peoples ; And they will hammer their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, And never again will they learn war.

    Isaiah 14:1-2
    When the LORD will have compassion on Jacob and again choose Israel, and settle them in their own land, then strangers will join them and attach themselves to the house of Jacob. The peoples will take them along and bring them to their place, and the house of Israel will possess them as an inheritance in the land of the LORD as male servants and female servants; and they will take their captors captive and will rule over their oppressors.

    All of these passaged depict nations surviving the Battle of Armageddon and entering the Millennium in their natural bodies. Nothing in scripture irrefutably prooves that all will be killed at that battle and these scripture testify to the explictly opposite affect.

    Millennial repoplulation is not a problem for Post-Tribulationism.

    [ August 01, 2001: Message edited by: Chris Temple ]
     
  12. For His Name

    For His Name New Member

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    The reason that I mention Satan being the author of confusion is because I believe the secret "rapturing" away of the souls to be a lie. A lie taught throughout many of the churches today. I was taught it .. in detail for many years.

    When the anti-Christ appears on the earth he will call followers to him. He will be a beautiful person, he will promise peace and prosperity and the crowds will "whore after him". Those that believe in the secret rapture have not been raptured away and could (I said could .. ) be swayed by his influence. The elect (christians) will be present during this period. It is the job of the elect to stand before the Synagogue of Satan. If the christians are raptured away how will this be possible? It is the job of the christians to proclaim the word of God and to offer the sinners a second chance through teaching the word. It is the Christians through the power of God that will defeat Satan.

    The Christians will be present. There is no secret rapture. That is why there is no reference to it.

    Interpetation of the scripture is something many scholars cannot agree on ... I love discussing it here because I want to learn as much as I can. But .. I have learned not to accept the interpetation of any man before researching, researching, researching, praying, praying ... (I think you get the idea).

    wells ... looking forward to your post (as always!) ...
     
  13. Gina B

    Gina B Active Member

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    I find it interesting that not too many here believe in the rapture as it is usually taught, yet in every IFB church I've been to I've heard the pastor talk about witnessing, and how they can't wait for Jesus to come and take us up in the clouds, and how we should witness or the ones left behind at this instantaneous rapture will have to go through the tribulation.
    Seems like a big ploy to me. Used correctly, with the proper raising and lowering of the voice at the correct times, it can evoke deep emotions among church members, and make them leave with the feeling of "My, I really got something out of that service!"
     
  14. bro dave

    bro dave New Member

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    The rapture:
    when depends on how you see the tribulation. Is the trib. from the time of the opening of the first seal on to the last bowl of wrath, or just the seven bowls of wrath? If the trib is from seal to bowl rapture is mid trib. if trib is only bowls of wrath rapture is pre trib. I say this because the word says so. 1 Corinth 15:51-53, 1 Thess.4:16, Rev.11:15, the last trump of God. also rev. 14:14-16

    in His service
     
  15. ROBERTGUWAPO

    ROBERTGUWAPO Member

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    Dear PRETRIBS:

    Hasn't it occured to all of you that the doctrine of "secret rapture" is being assailed as unbiblical, heretical, occultic in origin, while there is no such similar assault on the doctrine of postrib from preachers, bible study leaders, Christian professors, even the Internet???

    IT MAKES ME WONDER WHY???

    Or, you guys haven't got a clue why? :rolleyes:
     
  16. John Wells

    John Wells New Member

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    FHN,

    It would be helpful if you could insert scripture references to all the propositions you make. I am pre-trib by prayer and study. Pastor Larry has done an excellent job of covering the fine points of why we believe as we do. You are correct that "elect" Christians will be present in the tribulation, but only those who come to Christ during the tribulation.

    You said, "It is the Christians through the power of God that will defeat Satan." The Bible says, When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth--Gog and Magog--to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Rev 20:7-10 NIV)

    In the OT, everytime fire came down from heaven it was God's doing. Satan rebelled against God (a personal rebellion) and it will be God who will defeat him.

    God bless!
     
  17. John Wells

    John Wells New Member

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    Uh oh! Another swords drawn frontal attack by holier than thou Robert! :( :( :(
    If you have the love of Christ in you, why don't you "let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven?" (Mat 5:16 NIV)

    [ August 01, 2001: Message edited by: wellsjs ]
     
  18. For His Name

    For His Name New Member

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    Robert .. do you know what I like the most about your posts .. I don't have to "wonder".. you are very up front and I have to say .. I think I like it! (even though I don't always agree) .. sorry again wells .. I will get the hang of this .. and provide documentation for my last post ..
     
  19. Mikayehu

    Mikayehu New Member

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    Pastory Larry,
    I'm just trying to get some clarification on your last post. First regarding the response to Rev. 3:10 being anemic, I don't think I agree. I gave the one other place where that Greek phrase was used in Scripture, and there (Jn. 17) it clearly means to guard in the midst of danger. So, I stated that that was the natural reading in the Rev. passage. It is not unthinkable that it could refer to a rapture, but it is not clear as that would demand a different meaning of the Greek phrase than attested to elsewhere in Scripture.
    Anyway, my main reason for posting was regarding your last statement. I think you may misunderstand the post-trib, pre-mil view of the rapture. I hold that at the second coming of Christ, the saints who have died will be resurrected. They, together with the saints who are alive, will be caught up to welcome the Lord in His triumphant procession to earth. Christ will come with the believers to set up His millenial kingdom on this earth. So, I do definitely see inhabitants of the earth during the millenium.
     
  20. ROBERTGUWAPO

    ROBERTGUWAPO Member

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    Dear FHN:

    You see, the pretribbers are always on the DEFENSIVE; the postribbers are always on the OFFENSIVE. Kinda makes you wonder why. If a doctrine is sound, you do not need to spend so much grief defending it.

    You can compare pretribbers to KJVONLYSTS: both are always on the DEFENSIVE; both try to hang on to a very shaky position; both try to prove their positions using very questionable methods of interpretation; both are...WHY BOTHER.

    Dear Wellsjs:

    I may be upfront as FHN says, but I draw the line when it comes to what others do: NAMECALLING!


    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by For His Name:
    Robert .. do you know what I like the most about your posts .. I don't have to "wonder".. you are very up front and I have to say .. I think I like it! (even though I don't always agree) .. sorry again wells .. I will get the hang of this .. and provide documentation for my last post ..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
     
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