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The Second Coming Of Our Lord Jesus Christ

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by OldRegular, Sep 9, 2005.

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  1. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

    Dec 28, 2004
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    Maybe if I explained "WHY" there is a "tribulation period", and "WHY" Israel suffers the trib and not the church, it might be easier to understand.

    Here's what God said about Israel:

    Ps 89:3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,

    Ps 89:29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.

    30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;

    31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;

    32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.

    God promised to use a "ROD" to inflict "STRIPES" in their "OWN FLESH".

    What is that "ROD" God uses???

    Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, (Antichrist) the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.

    God's "ROD" (AC) turns into a "Serpent" same as Moses/Arrons' rod turned into a "serpent".

    STAFF is "leadership", giving Satan "Dominion over all kindren, tongues, nations" is "God's "INDIGNATION".

    Satan inflicts "STRIPES" in the "BODIES" of those who have the testimony of Christ by having them "KILLED".

    The trib isn't just a time of "WRATH", but of "CHASTISEMENT" and "RECONCILATION" between GOD/Israel.

    Jesus suffered the STRIPE for the church in "HIS FLESH", (Isa 53) we already have "PEACE" with God, no chastisement due.

    God does to Israel exactly what Paul wrote for the church to do.

    1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

    I'll not post it at this time but the "FEAST DAYS" also explain this.
  2. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

    Dec 28, 2004
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    Da 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

    Daniel's "Book" was to be closed and sealed until the "TIME OF THE END".

    All the generations "BETWEEN" were to be "ignorant" of Daniel's book, WHY???

    The answer is, it's prophecies didn't apply to them, there was "NO NEED" for them to know.

    The last question the disciples ask Jesus, he refuse to answer, telling them it wasn't for them to know, WHY, because it didn't pertain to their generation.

    Ac 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

    7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons,

    Actually, Jesus was keeping the seal on Daniel's book when he answered.

    So why has the "rapture" become the main topic in the last few years, we're at the "time of the end" and the "seals" are being taken off of Daniel's book,

    "NEW" revealtions, kept hidden since Daniel, are being revealed, and the "WISE" will understand Daniel's book.

    Da 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

    9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

    10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

    The very fact we understand Daniel's book is "EVIDENCE" we are at the "time of the end". [​IMG]
  3. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Aug 20, 2002
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    Amen, Brother Me4him -- Preach it! [​IMG]

    That Daniel is an open book now that the
    Last Day of the Last Days is right upon us.
  4. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Aug 20, 2002
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    Rev 11:3-6 (KJV1611 Edition):
    And I will giue power vnto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesie a thousand two hundred and threescore dayes clothed in sackcloth.
    4 These are the two oliue trees, and the two candlestickes, standing before the God of the earth.
    5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and deuoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, hee must in this maner be killed.
    6 These haue power to shut heauen, that it raine not in the dayes of their prophesie: and haue power ouer waters to turne them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

    These haue power to shut heauen, that it raine not in the dayes of their prophesie: ..."
    Just like Elijah - representing the PROPHETS

    " ... and haue power ouer waters to turne them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues," as often as they will. "
    Just like Moses - representing the LAW

    These guys representing the Law and the Prophets
    will show up shortly after the Pretribulaion

    The "law and prophet" will return! [​IMG]
  5. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

    Nov 21, 2004
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    Me4Him and ED Ed

    Daniel is apparently not an open book to either of you.
  6. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

    Nov 21, 2004
    Likes Received:
    Me4Him and ED Ed

    With the birth and death of Jesus Christ the role of Israel in God's purpose of Salvation was complete. The relationship of the Israelites with God is the same as any other unbeliever. Those who are saved are saved one at a time just like the Gentiles.

    Jesus Christ pronounced God's judgment on Israel when he told them in Matthew 21:43, Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

    What nation was to be the recipient of the Kingdom of God? The obvious answer is the Church. However, for evidence we turn to Scripture. We read in the Gospel of Luke:

    Luke 12:32, KJV
    32. Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

    The ‘little flock’ is the Church, the ‘called out’ ones, who would bring forth the fruits of the Kingdom. For those who would insist that the Church cannot be identified as a ‘nation’ we turn to the writings of the Apostle Peter:

    1 Peter 2:9, KJV
    9. But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

    There is no Scripture in the New Testament that indicates that the judgment pronounced against Israel in Matthew 21:43 was or ever will be revoked. Therefore, it still stands. The Kingdom belongs to the little flock, the Church. The mission of the nation Israel in God’s purpose of redemption had been accomplished.
  7. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Aug 20, 2002
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    OldRegular: "With the birth and death of Jesus Christ the role of Israel
    in God's purpose of Salvation was complete. The relationship of the Israelites
    with God is the same as any other unbeliever. Those who are saved are
    saved one at a time just like the Gentiles. "

    True, right now.
    Once the pretribulation Rapture takes the Gentile Church out of this world
    (and those Messanic Jews with them) - God's purpose for the salvation of
    the Gentiles will be DONE. The Jesus turns toward saving a maximum number
    of Jews. These Jews will be saved one by one as they see that Jesus is their
    True Messiah (and not a false Messiah like the Anti-messiah).
  8. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

    Nov 21, 2004
    Likes Received:
    If you had stoppes with TRUE you would have finally posted something I could agree with since you were repeating my post.
  9. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

    Dec 28, 2004
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    Paul, refering to the JEW,

    Ro 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

    Do you know of "ANYONE" who can be an enemy of the gospel and still have a "PROMISE" of being "SAVED"???

    God's promise to ABRAHAM will stand.

    Jew interpret scripture "Literally", the Church "Spiritually", Israel was expecting a the "literal Kingdom" (MK) not the "Spiritual Kingdom" (Church) that's why Israel rejects Jesus as Messiah.

    But regardless of which way scripture is interpreted, Literally or Spiritually, it's TRUE

    There's is a "Spiritual Kingdom" (Church) and a "literal Kingdom" (MK) but only "ONE BIBLE", don't you think it "COVERS BOTH KINGDOMS"???
  10. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

    Apr 9, 2002
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    You believe the kingdom shall be literal for millennial.

    Pharisees asked Christ, "When the kingdom of God should come?"- Luke 17:20. Then, Chist answered them, "The kingdom of God cometh not with OBSERVATION. Neither shall they say, 'Lo here! lo there!' for, behold the kingdom of God is WITHIN YOU." - Luke 17:20-21.

    Jews are still expecting Messiah shall come and to set the kingdom on earth. They still do not understand the meaning of the kingdom of God, also, they still blind that, Jesus is their true Messiah. Christ told them, this is not with observation, but it is within them, speak of spiritually.

    Christ already bring the kingdom of God/heaven to earth through his power 2000 years ago.

    Christ never saying the kingdom on earth shall be last for only a thousand years. There is not a single verse find anywhere in Bible saying that the kingdom shall be last only a thousand years. Bible says, the kingdom is an everlasting kingdom.

    The kingdom of God/heaven does not limited for Jews only, also, it brings for the world, of salvation.

    The kingdom of God/heaven is a good news for everyone need to know about Jesus Christ, it is not talk about Israel as nation shall be possess at Christ's coming, it is talk about good news of Jesus Christ and salvation.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
  11. rjprince

    rjprince Active Member

    Dec 7, 2004
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    I used to say that Dan 9 was the key to premillenialism. Now I say that Gen 15 is the key. Wish I had more time...


    The theocratic kingdom for Israel is for 1000 years and then moves into eternity with a New Heaven and New Earth. The post/amil position denies the literalness of a lot more than the 1000 years!
  12. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

    Dec 28, 2004
    Likes Received:
    There is a "kingdom Of God", (Spiritual kingdom, at the present, Church) and a "KINGDOM OF HEAVEN", (Literal location).

    The "Kingdom of God" is mentioned throughout the NT, however the Kingdom of HEAVEN is only mentioned in "Matthew".

    The "physical Kingdom" promised to the Jews in the OT is what we called the "Mill reign", or "Seventh day". (day=1000 years)

    God told Adam, IN THE DAY you sin, you die.

    Adam lived 930 years but still die IN THE DAY he sinned,for a day with God is a "Thousand years".

    NO PERSON has lived a thousand years since sin enter the world, ALL have died IN THE DAY they sinned.

    But the "Spiritual" is always manifested here in the "physical realm" (if you have eyes to see it)

    SO, The thousand years we LIVE AND REIGN with Jesus and DO NOT DIE will prove Jesus removed ALL OUR SINS.
  13. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

    Dec 28, 2004
    Likes Received:
    You're stating "REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY", which is "TOTALLY WRONG".

    God's promise to Abraham was both "SPIRITUAL" and "LITERAL", Abraham's "NATURAL SEED" as well as "SPIRITUAL SEED". (FAITH)

    Ge 17:5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

    Ge 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

    The Jews can no more become "UN-CHOSEN" than you can become "UN-SAVED", God's choice is "ETERNAL", there's no "changing his mind".

    God intended for the Jews to be a "light to the gentiles", but their rejection of Jesus stopped it.

    Isa 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

    7 Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee. (he came unto his own)

    8 Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;

    The Jews being "LAST" for the Gospel, will be restored to "FIRST" place during the MK.

    Zec 8:23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

    Ro 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

    Ro 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

    Entering the trib is their "Chastisement" for rejecting Jesus, and the reason the church doesn't.

    It should be noted that God only Chastises "HIS OWN".
  14. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Aug 20, 2002
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    "Your second statement:
    You expect way too much.
    OldRegular: "I expect nothing from dispensationalists except a repetition of false doctrine"

    Your ad homineim argument is noted.
    Your vermicular converstation is noted.
    I am NOT a dispensationalist as you yourself have defined
    the term 'dispensationalist'.
    I am however a dispensatinalist as God defines 'dispensationalist'
    in the Holy Bible. I am a good steward of what God has intrusted to
    me. What God has intrusted to me is the hope of the Pretribulation
    Rapture/resurrection and the ability to explain it beyond what John
    Darby could explain.

    John Darby did not know that one day mankind would
    invent nuclear weapons and by 1964 would be capable of destroying all
    life on Earth, surely all Human life. Ed knoted this event in 1964.

    When i was first saved in April 1952 at a Pretrib Revival Meeting,
    i believed that God would whip the bad guys in the Tribulation Period.
    Actually after 1964 I could see that God will interfer in love to save
    Mankind from destroying themselves.

    John Darby saw 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 as assuming that a pretribulation
    rapture/resurrection had taken place. I have been given grace from
    God to see that the "falling away" in 2 Thess 2:3
    is the PRETRIBULATION RAPTURE itself". Some are want to say,
    How can the 'caught up'in the sky of 1 Thess 4 be the 'falling away'
    from Earth in 2 Thess 2? If you have a digital camera to
    record the event, you just hold your camera 180-degrees about.
    If your camera is pointed up to the sky, then folks are caught up;
    if your camera is pointed down to the earth, then folks are
    falling away from this old earth right into the hands of Jesus!

    Say, can i ask a genric question here?
    If everything was finished when Jesus died on the Cross, why
    did he have to arise from the grave? What was finished (completed) on
    the Cross was the hard part of the chore of Jesus: die for our sins.
    The rest of the chore prior to Resurrection was easy: whipping Satan.

    If everything is finished when Jesus comes again, and the world is
    destroyed - how is that different from what Mankind can do: destroy
    all mankind?

    Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
    1. You have yet to show the Historical
    and Biblical Baptist Doctrine
    stand you say Baptists hold.

    //The above statement is totally false. Why do you deliberately make
    such false statements? I posted excerpts from historical Baptist Confessions
    in the OP. These Confessions and the Abstract of Principles clearly
    teach a general resurrection and judgment just as Jesus Christ
    does on John 5:28, 29: //

    The above statement is totally true. I keep telling the truth.
    These Confessions and the Abstract of Principles are not clearly
    teaching a general resurrection and judgement no more than the
    Old Testament (OT) Messanic prophecies preach one and only one coming
    (arrival, appearance, advent) of our Blessed Lord and Savior: Messiah
    Yeshua (AKA: Iesus, and Jesus). The Jews still read only the OT
    and construe that the Messian will come one and only one time.

    Yes, you can read into John 5:28 and John 5:29 that there is one
    and only one resurrection. How come I have received from God's word
    and denoted the differences between FIVE judgements?
    (and notice how neat an evangelistic message it makes [​IMG] )

    John 5:28-29 quoted by OldRegular:

    28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are
    in the graves shall hear his voice,
    29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the
    resurrection of life; and they that have done evil,
    unto the resurrection of damnation.

    This does NOT say:

    28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are
    in the graves shall hear his voice,
    29.and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the
    resurrection of life; AND IN THE SAME EXACT
    60-minute HOUR (HOUR as defined by SCIENCE): they that have done evil,
    unto the resurrection of damnation.

    Why do you let science define your term?

    The correct understanding of HOUR here is "the right time" - Jesus
    will raise the good (via Jesus) unto life
    at the right time and will raise the evil unto damnation at the
    right time. Nobody said those two times would be in the same science
    defined '60-minute-hour'.

    OldRegular: " ... you have been too busy posting TEE HEE to read and understand."

    You mock the history of Internet communication.
    How can you expect to be taken seriously when you try to define
    the history of Baptists?
    Back before smilies [​IMG] , back before semi-colon end-parens [ :) ] smiley
    faces, there was 'TeeHee' to indicate one is not taking oneself too

    Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
    IDEALISM - N.T. prophecy is spiritual truths too deep for
    --- OldRegular and Ed to understand

    OldRegular: //Ed, The spiritual truths in the New Testament are obviously too
    deep for you to understand but don't judge others by yourself.//

    I take it then you are an Idealist?
    Just in case you are - I restate:

    IDEALISM - N.T. prophecy is spiritual truth

    After i defined a bunch of nutral eschatological viewpoint definitions,
    Brother OldRegular says:

    "Am I supposed to stand and applaud now.
    By the way it is millennial not millinnial."

    I've been asked by various and sundry Moderators not to correct
    the spelling of fellow posters. Maybe the rules are different for you?

    It wouldn't hurt you case if you did stand and applaud. I was
    giving nutral definions to show the flavor of various eschatological
    stances. But you choose to mock me. I just hope i didn't catch you
    with a couple of terms you are not familiar with ;)

    OldRegular: "In truth, though the eschatology of the dispensationalist
    is completely false,
    it is their doctrine of the failure of Jesus Christ in His mission tha
    is most repugnant."

    I don't dare name your eschatology, i'll let you do it.
    Again, I deny I am an dispensationalist as you define the term.

    My Futurist, pre-millinnial Second Coming, pretribulation rapture
    eschatology does not teach the failure of Jesus Chirst
    in his mission. This is an anti-pretribualtion rapture lie.
    IN fact, those who say the rapture is the same 48-hour-day as the
    Second Advent appearance of Jesus to destroy the Antichrist -
    they are the ones who 'think Jesus is a missiona failure'. For they
    consign the Jews to the dustbin of History forgotten by God.
    Come on, the reason we gentiles can be saved is that the Jews
    of the Time of Jesus, in most, rejected Jesus as the Messiah.
    Why did the promises to Abraham renewed to King David about the
    special Israeli people - why didn't God not keep those promises?
    God has a plan to win a maximum number of national Jews. If the
    Lord comes today, there will be 18 Million Jewish people. Most of them
    will turn to Jesus when they see the Anti-messiah commit the abomination
    of desolation (AOD) - then many will see Jesus is their true Messiah
    and be saved for all eternity. No, the only way that Jesus can complete
    His mission is THE PLAN: pretribulation rapture/resurrection followed
    by the Tribualtion (see Revelation 4-19, the parts that take place
    on earth) Period, followed by the Triumphant return of Jesus to
    destroy the Antichrist and set up a physical 1,000-year-long over
    a physical Israel in a physcial world ruling a physical kingdom from
    a physical Throne of David in a physical world.

    Me4Him: //"Charts makes explaining much easier, less typing, and I'm "lazy".//

    Amen, Brother Me4Him -- Preach on! Charts make the scriptures come
    alive. However, Ii note that the charts don't do much for convincing
    the heard of heart :(

    DeafPosttrib: "Early Church does not teaching on that in the first of 18 Centuries
    till Darby developed it, and they started to adopt his new treachings.
    They departed from the truth of Bible, and Early Church's
    statement of faith on second coming, and they follow new
    teaching of pretribulationism."

    DeafPosttrib blames pretribulationism on Darby, OldRegular blames
    dispensationalism. I wish you guys could agree with each other on
    how to attack Bro. Me4Him [​IMG]

    Which reminds me of another strength of pretribulation raptureism:
    you can get to posttrib from pre-mill or a-mill.
    YOu can only get to pretrib from pre-mill. Two ways to make a mistake,
    one way to get it right!

    from Articles 19 of the Abstract of Principle
    of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary (1858):

    "At the last day, the bodies of all the dead,
    both just and unjust, will be raised."

    Science defines a day as a 24-hour period measured one place
    on the earth or a 48-hour period measured all places on the earth.
    If one takes a Science definition of 'day' here, one has that all
    these resurrections take place AT THE SAME TIME. But other
    scriptures DO NOT teach this. There are more than one defintion
    of 'day'. The general prophetic meaning of day is 'the right time'.

    I see no reason that these Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
    should have a better revelation than the authors of the Bible.
    The last days started about 33AD, day of Pentacost, as shown in
    Acts 2:17. That is 2005-33 years ago = 1,972 years ago. Humm,
    last days = 1,972 years and counting - why cannot the 'last day',
    the last right time be more than 48-hours?

    Looking around for a candidate time period, we might notice
    the 42 months; 1260 days; time, times, and half a time; half
    of 7 (years). All these point to 3½-years as some say, and
    2 times 3½-years = seven years as others say. This choice seems
    to work better than any other definiction of a 'day' as in
    'last day' 'Day of the Lord', in most any prophetic day which has
    not happened yet.

    The Midland Association Confession [1655]

    Article 16 [page 200, Lumpkin].

    “That at the time appointed of the Lord, the dead bodies of all men,
    just and unjust shall rise out of their graves, that all may
    receive according to what they have done in their bodies,
    be it good or evil.”

    Yep, good summary. But the phrase is 'time appointed of the Lord'
    not 'time appointed of the Lord and measured by Science'.

    Sorry, this statement can be 'amened' by every pretribulation
    rapture believer.

    The Somerset Confession [1656]

    Article XL [page 214].

    “That there is a day appointed, when the Lord shall raise the
    unjust as well as the righteous, and judge them all in righteousness,
    but every man in his own order, taking vengeance on them
    that know not God, and obey not the gospel of our Lord
    Jesus Christ, whose punishment will be everlasting destruction
    from the presence of the Lord.”

    I really don't think 'day appointed' means a day as measured by
    20th century science at 48-each-60-minute-hours. Well it could, but
    i doubt if those folk in 1656 would have agreed to it [​IMG]

    The Standard Confession [1660]

    Article XX [page 231].

    “That there shall be [through Christ who was dead but is alive again
    from the dead] a Resurrection of all men from the graves of the earth,
    both the just and the unjust, that is, the fleshly bodies of men,
    sown into the graves of the earth, corruptible, dishonourable,
    weak, natural, [which so considered cannot inherit the Kingdom
    of God] shall be raised again, incorruptible, in glory
    in power, spiritual, and so considered, the bodies of
    the Saints [united again to their spirits] which here suffer
    for Christ, shall inherit the Kingdom, reigning together with Christ.”

    This isn't even specific in how much time it takes
    or how many resurrections there are. Take your pick 1 to 10 resurrections
    and one minute to 7,000 years. Well, those folks were good at pleasing
    all the various eschatologies at once.

    Marcia: "OR, ...
    I read through your OP. Can you point out specifically which
    of the above statements dispensationalism disagrees with? Thanks"

    He probably won't respond or won't get it right. I take liberty
    to speak for various and sundry branches of dispensationalism:
    Dispensatinalists do NOT disagree with the Opening Post (OP) statements.
    These statements are very generic and agree with most commonly held
    eschatologies. Only esoteric eschatologies can disagree with these
    statements. The statement in the SBC1963 and SBC 2000 statements
    do NOT disagree with this and make room for a-mills and pre-mills alike.
    The eschatological stands in such combined statements are made to
    unite people, not to figure out where they stand seperate eschatologically.

    OldRegular Definition of Dispensationalism1: "Dispensationalism teaches
    that there will be multiple
    resurrections and judgments and, therefore, is in disagreement
    with all the above statements.."

    OldRegular Definition of Dispensationalism2: "As reported
    by Lloyd-Jones [page 138]
    Irving was apparently the originator of ‘the secret rapture’
    which is the bedrock of dispensational eschatology."

    Seems not only do you have to go out on a limb for this 'definition'
    you have go out on a twig, out on a leaf, out to the end of the leaf.
    I don't believe in a 'secret rapture', whatever it is.
    And i still can't find in this topic where anybody defines a 'secret
    rapture'. And I tire greatly of those who bring this long dead
    strawman, 'secret rapture', to our meetings.

    These two defintions of 'dispensatinalism' do not agree.
    I agree with the first in that their will be multiple resurrections
    of persons both multiple general resurrections of the of
    the just in Christ (pretrib) and a resurrection of the just
    seperate from the resurrection of the unjust (premillinnial).

    OldRegular: "The question is not whethe
    there is a distinction between the nation Israel and the Church,
    there obviously is. The concern is the relationship between true
    or spiritual Israel, the believing remnant [Isaiah 10:20-23], and the Church."

    According to my pretriblation rapture/ressurection, pre-millinnial
    Second Coming in power, futuristic: the important thing is between
    the nation Israel and the Church.

    If fact, there are two Israels and two Churches and two elects.
    One Israel is physical Israel which will be saved in the coming Tribulation Period.
    One Israel is spiritual Israel which will be raptured/resurrected
    out of this world before the coming Tribulation period.

    The physical Israel is the church that was protected in the
    wilderness outside Sinai and will be protected in the Tribulation
    Period in the wilderness by the very hand of God from the dark forces
    of the Antichrist.

    The spiritual Israel is the gentile church (plus some Messanic Jews)
    who proteced in the Tribulation Period by GOING HOME to be with Jesus
    in the pretribulation rapture/resurrection.

    Obviously the two elects are the Two Churches.

    OldRegular: //3. Dispensationalism denies that the church is included in prophecy.
    Rather, the claim is made that Jesus Christ came to establish
    the Messianic kingdom for the Jews, that they rejected Him, and that
    He established the Church instead. ... //

    I object to the word 'instead'. God's PLAN 'A' was to save the whole
    world through Jesus, the Christ - well, as many as would have that salvation.
    God knew ahead of time that Israel would not, in large, accept Jesus then
    as Savior. So God caused the no-people (AKA: guoim /or goy/ or automen)
    to be saved for 2,000 years now to shame the Jews. But God's first love
    was Israel, not the Church (the Church was second in time sequence).
    God will get back to Yisreal soon.

    My eschatology has the gentile church (the statement doesn't seem to
    realise God has two churches and three kingdoms) IS included in
    both OT and NT prophecy.

    Unfortunately i've not got time to go over all the errors in OldRegular's
    understanding of what self proclaimed dispensationalists have said.
    Not that the self appointed dispnesationalist were even right all the time
    anyway. Sorry, but the whole history of Christianity is one of growth
    and backsliding. We grow in our understanding of God, but many backslide.

    I'll try to study these bumbling musings of OldRegular about the
    'evil' dispensatinalists. But it will take months to undo the damage
    he has done in confusing folks.

    BTW, I've been in places where i had to say, "I'm not a Christian like
    you beleive". (I am and will forever remain a Messanic Jesus Phreaque,
    but i'm not buing into nor falling for every body's mis-definition of
    'Christian'. I'm especially shy of being a 'Christian' before a Jew.
    To a Jew who read how half the Jews in the world died under the heavy
    hand of the alleged Christian 'Adolf Hitler" - even more those who managed
    to survive - the word 'Christian' is more offensive than the
    'N'-word to the African-american or the 'L'-word is to fundamentalists.
    I try not to use 'Christ' and "Christian' if i can in case a Jew
    is around. Offending Jews is NOT CONDUSIVE TO SPIRITUAL HEALTH.
  15. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

    Dec 28, 2004
    Likes Received:
    Old Regular

    You will find "THREE" of almost "EVERYTHING" in the scriptures, even "THREE RESURRECTION".

    1. When Jesus died on the cross, OT saints were "Resurrected" and appeared in Jerusalem.

    Mt 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

    53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

    2. The "First resurrection", when Jesus returns with all his saints.

    1Th 3:13 at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

    Re 20:5 This is the first resurrection.

    3. Resurrection of the unsaved dead. (GWT)

    Re 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them:

    If you'll notice, in each of these "resurrection", they are "BACK ON EARTH, ALIVE", Bodies come out of the ground in the rapture, BUT, they go directly to heaven, not back on earth, therefore the rapture isn't classified as a "resurrection" in the scriptures.

    But the point is you have to understand the "SEQUENCE OF EVENTS" before you can understand the scriptures.

    To most people the bible is a "puzzle of verses" they can't "assemble" into a "clear picture", understanding the sequence of events puts all the puzzle pieces in their place, making the picture clear.

    I draw "Charts" to explain the scriptures, they're easy to see/understand and helps others to "See" the "picture".

    All the charts I've posted are mine.

    a side note here,

    IF "ALL", (I believe they were) the OT saints were resurrected with Jesus then "Joseph's tomb" is "EMPTY", along with all the other graves/tombs of OT saint. :eek: :eek: [​IMG]

    Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, (OT saints held "captive" by sin)
  16. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

    Nov 21, 2004
    Likes Received:
    ED Ed

    I am not going to wade through the distortions of Scripture in the above lengthy post. It all makes about as much sense as you stating that science rather than God determined the length of the Day. I believe Genesis, don't you?

    Your final paragraph is particularly disturbing and should be repugnant to all who believe that Jesus Christ, God the Son, died to save them from eternal damnation. I will repeat it for emphasis and for those who don't want to read your lenthy post:
    Ed, Ed you say
    Jesus Christ said: Matthew 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. I assume that Jews are men [and women].

    I wonder why any Christian would be ashamed to mention the name of Jesus Christ around Jews, the Apostle Peter wasn't, the Apostle Paul wasn't. The Apostle Paul certainly was not afraid of offending the Jews for he said of the Jews in Acts 28:25-27.

    25. And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
    26. Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
    27. For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

    I am a Christian, saved by the Grace of God, and I am not ashamed to proclaim it. I WOULD SAY THAT OFFENDING GOD IS NOT CONDUSIVE TO SPIRITUAL HEALTH.
  17. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Aug 20, 2002
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    Brother 'of South Carolina':
    You need to be able to tell a person's
    name from his titles; you need to discern
    the Blessed Name of Jesus and His titles.

    Here are some of the names of Our Blessed
    Lord and Savior:
    middle english - Iesus
    modern english - Jesus
    Angelised Hebrew - Yeshua

    Here are some of His titles:
    Christ - Greek for 'the annointed one of God
    Messiah - Hebrew for 'the anointed one of God.
    Lord - THE BOSS
    Master - THE BOSS
    Savior - one who saved my soul
    Blessed - the one most blessed of God

    Note that here on this board the brother's
    name is OldRegular' not 'of South Carolina' --
    the difference between the name and the title.

    Act 4:1012 (KJV1611 Edition):
    Be it knowen vnto you all, and to all the
    people of Israel, that by the Name of
    Iesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified,
    whome God raised from the dead, euen by him,
    doeth this man stand here before you, whole
    11 This is the stone which was set
    at nought of you builders, which is
    become the head of the corner.
    12 Neither is there saluation in any
    other: for there is none other name vnder
    heauen giuen among men whereby we
    must be saued

    So, how many of you were saved in the
    name of 'of Nazareth'?

    Here is 'name' in 4:12

    From a presumed derivative of the base
    of G1097 (compare G3685); a “name”
    (literally or figuratively), (authority,
    character): - called, (+ sur-) name (-d).

    Here is 'Jesus' in 4:10:

    Of Hebrew origin [H3091]; Jesus (that is,
    Jehoshua), the name of our Lord
    and two (three) other Israelites: - Jesus.

    Here is 'Christ' in 4:10:

    From G5548; anointed, that is,
    the Messiah, an epithet of Jesus:
    - Christ.

    Yep, it is not the word (or title)
    'Christ' by which we
    must be saved, is the name 'Iesus' (in
    the KJV1611) by which
    we must be saved.
  18. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Aug 20, 2002
    Likes Received:
    Gen 12:1 Now the LORD had said vnto Abram, Get thee out of thy countrey,
    and from thy kinred, and from thy fathers house, vnto a land that I will shew thee.
    Gen 12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation,
    and I wil blesse thee, and make thy name great;
    and thou shalt bee a blessing.
    Gen 12:3 And I will blesse them that blesse thee,
    and curse him, that curseth thee
    and in thee shal all families of the earth be blessed.

    I sure wouldn't curse a national Jewish Israeli, but will bless him.

    Here is the blessing Jesus puts on those who were kind to the
    national Jewish Israeli:

    Mat 25:40 (KJV1611 Edition):
    And the King shall answere, and say vnto them,
    Uerely I say vnto you, in as much as ye haue done it vnto
    one of the least of these my brethren, ye haue done it vnto me.
  19. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

    Nov 21, 2004
    Likes Received:
    I promise, I will be sure not to speal ill of Abraham!

    Poor Ed

    Jesus Christ is talking here about the Great White Throne Judgment. To say that He is talking about the Jews is beyond ridiculous. You should be ashamed of yourself.

    I am saved by the Grace of God through the death of God the Son, Jesus Christ. I am not ashamed to say that to a Jew or anyone else. You dispensationalists, no matter what breed, have got to decide whether those for whom Jesus Christ died to redeem to God the Father are the beloved of God or whether the unbelieving, stiffnecked Jews are the beloved of God.

    Stephen said of these Jews you seem to worship:

    51. Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
    52. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
    53. Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

    54. When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
    55. But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
    56. And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
    57. Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
    58. And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man’s feet, whose name was Saul.
    59. And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
    60. And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

    Stephan, a Christian, spoke ill against those who delivered Jesus Christ to the Roman Cross. Did God take the life of Stephen because he spoke ill of the Jews, or was he killed by an evil people who were stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears and who always resist the Holy Ghost?

    Just answer the question ED. No dispensational nonsense.
  20. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Aug 20, 2002
    Likes Received:
    We will discuss these two seperate time,
    different purpose judgements later:

    4. Throne of His Glory judgement
    (AKA: Sheep and Goats judgement, Matthew 25:31-46)
    WHO: the nations: the living survivers of the Great Tribulation
    (these people are NOT saved, they are human in human bodies)
    WHEN: after the Great Tribulation, before the Millennial Age
    WHERE: Jerusalem
    WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises: God will bless those
    who bless Yisrael and curse those who curse Yisrael
    HOW: Judged by their treatment of Yisrael
    WHAT: the cursed to Hell; the blessed to the Millennial Age

    5. Great White Throne judgement
    WHO: the wicked dead
    WHEN: after the Millennial Age; before endless ages
    WHERE: between Hell and the Lake of Fire
    WHY: The Lord God is not mocked
    HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: the Messiah rejectors consigned to endless punishment
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