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Featured The Truth About the Biblical Act of Predestination.

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JD731, Mar 11, 2023.

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  1. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus has presented the Gospel, thus knocking on the door. It's up to each person to answer the door by believing it or not.
     
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  2. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Eisegesis 101
     
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  3. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Verse please.
     
  4. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Does Jesus say " anyone can will themselves to believe"?

    The whole of scripture tells us who the "whoever" are.

    Again, does man cause himself to believe or does God cause man to believe? What is your answer?
     
  5. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    Percho, I have been dealing with the doctrine of predestination in this thread. Predestination is a "church" doctrine. In the body of scriptures we call the New Testament, there are doctrines that are not directly dealing with the church. Israel predates the church as an entity by about 1600 years. It is a nation and a distinct people. It has unique covenant promises from God and prophesies that must be fulfilled. The church OTOH has no Old Testament presence. It has it's beginning at the Resurrection of Jesus Christ and that is stated plainly in the scriptures. Jesus Christ is the foundation stone of the church, the corner stone. The church has a fixed number when it is complete. There will never be any additions when it is finally complete. It is not complete now. The church built by the Spirit of God by baptizing members of the Jewish people and all gentile peoples into a body. They are not a nation. The church, being in body like Jesus Christ, will rule and reign with him over the whole world.

    1Co 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

    Here is how God sees every person today; He is either a Jew, or a gentile, or the church. Of course the church is being built from members of the other two groups. There is that trinity signature of God on society on the earth once again. The other two groups are as real in this age as is the church. They have their own destiny that is separate from the church and post dates the church on the earth.

    So, you have quoted verses from the OT and James and Revelation as if they are all dealing with the same entity and maybe at the same time. You quoted John when he saw the 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel in chapter 7.

    I will only say about chapter 7 that you really can believe the words. These are really Israelites and they are really from the 12 tribes. Now we know right off that the church is not Israel, it is not divided into 12 tribes.

    Let's revisit the Revelation with the trinity signature on it. The Revelation goes no father back in the past than Acts 1 where Jesus rises from the dead. That is as far back as it goes. Jesus told John to write the things which he saw. He saw a glorified Jesus. He had to look back to see him.

    Re 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
    And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw....

    Then he said to write the thing which are. The seven churches are.

    Re 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

    The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

    Next he wants John to write a record of the things that will be hereafter the the things that are. The first and the last word in Re 4:1 is the word "after." Imagine that.

    When Titus, the Roman General destroy Jerusalem in 70 AD and completely dismantled Herod's Temple, all the genealogical records were destroyed. As a result no Jew today is able to know for sure what tribe he is from. But God knows and he is going to make it known to these Jews in chapter 7. They are the firsfruits of the redeemed after the church went up to heaven in Re 4, when all the redeemed were taken and no saved person left on the earth. These will be the preachers of the gospel of the kingdom of God being the first to be saved in the tribulation.

    There is much to know but you must follow the logic and believe the words.
     
  6. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Nope, you are entirely wrong.
    God sees the sheep and the goats. God sees the wheat and the tares. God sees the elect and the non-elect. God sees the predestined to heaven and the damned to hell. God sees the chosen people of the Promise and those not chosen. God sees the entire Church the 144,000, with the mark and seal of God, and the rest who have the mark of the beast.

    That's it. He tells us "There is no Jew, nor Greek, nor male nor female, nor slave nor free." You are either citizens of the Kingdom of God, with an inheritance, or you are not.
     
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  7. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    There are two kinds of people, exactly as you say, lost or saved.
     
  8. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    John 3:
    3 Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.”


    Was this in a movie or something?

    I'm sorry they asked.

    All living people are dead in their trespasses and sins, if they are lost. How do you get around "you has He Quickened who were dead in trespasses and sins"?

    They are dead in their sins, unless someone thinks they can invent something the opposite of what God said, like, "dead" means "alive".

    Is that what it means to you robo?

    Maybe, it was painted in a picture somewhere by an Artist.

    Did he also add the words about the Spirit? You said there is nothing Spiritual about John 3:16.

    5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

    6 Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit.

    7 Do not be amazed that I said, ‘You must be born again.

    3:18b; whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.


    This is the problem you have with imbibing on "whosoever";

    Those "whosoever" that come to God are shown in the same passage to have done so, because their Spiritual conversion of being Born Again was accomplished and Wrought by God;

    John 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

    Did you get this stuff from a picture show or a picture?

    .

    I hope you're not saying that you're adding Jesus preaching the Gospel into Revelation 3(?)

    I thought there had been enough added from a picture, already(?)

    We're do all these alterations to the Bible come from?

    Because, they entirely change the message of Repent and Believe the Gospel.
     
  9. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    My subject has been predestination within the context of the scriptures. I found the context to be two-fold. First, it is being discussed in the scriptures in the context of the family of Abraham, Jacob/Israel, with the reasoning and logic for it at this present time being in the types and figures and metaphors of his OT history. These types could never have been seen until we come to the New Testament but now we see that God has taught the new birth over and over so when it is time for explanation of these things it will be obvious of his plan of redemption. His son was born in Egypt, a type of the world. He was born of the flesh. He was the firstborn son of God. The son was born under the moral law of God but without the Spirit. The law condemned this son by identifying sin plainly but giving no power over it and so Israel after the flesh fell under it's influence. Israel must be born again.

    So, in Romans 7 we have Israel laboring for righteousness under the outward dynamic of the perfect law of God and see it does not work for them because decisions of the man are made from within and the lusts and desires of the flesh are much too strong and powerful to resist under ones own power. So, what is the answer? It is the answer that has been on display for 28 years when this epistle was written. The righteousness of Jesus Christ, the second son of God mentioned in the scriptures of truth, as living as a man, in the flesh, tempted in all points like as we are, yet without sin, and then dying for our sins and rising from the dead, will give his righteousness to this man who has sinned, in the person of his Spirit who indwelt him, thus quickening him, and gave him power over sin. There will be no more condemnation for this man when he receives this life from God. The power of an endless life is now on the inside of the man and he is born again, not a son of Abraham but a son of God with God's Spirit in him.

    In chapter 9 the illustrations of this truth abound. It is Abraham picturing God the Father, having two sons, Ishmael after the flesh (Hagar), and Isaac, the son of promise, the second born son. Ishmael stands as Israel being fleshly born and Isaac as Israel born again. The second birth, the second son. There is Esau and Jacob. Esau was born first and the history that is recorded of him is one who obeyed the flesh. Jacob was the second born. In the chapter God even used Abrahams seed Israel after the flesh as not being the children of God but being in need of a new birth, the second birth.

    Ro 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
    8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise (Isaac) are counted for the seed.

    This is a breakdown of Israel into two Israels' for the purpose of the illustration. (remember there are 28 years of history in the New Testament so far). The Israel that has Christ and is born again is the Israel of God. Then, Paul uses the nations as illustration of this truth. Israel has in the past been divided by God into two nations. The first nation, Ephraim, or Israel, and the second nation, Judah, where God lived in the temple in Jerusalem. This illustrates the second birth. It also gives hope to the gentiles but after the second birth of the Jews. These truths are actually breath taking when one considers the mind and wisdom of our great Father God.

    Now, I am going to state clearly why we have all these OT types and pictures in Romans as they pertain to Israel, the people of God. It is because of this:

    Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

    Salvation of Jesus Christ, his Spirit, that was poured out for all mankind on the cross was first given to the Jews. It did not come to Israel because of grace, it came because of promise. God had promised Israel his Spirit and salvation and a New Covenant, and all that goes with it, in the Old Testament. He promised it to them as his people. He promised it to them as his son collectively. As they were birthed at the first as his collective son, every one of them, they must be born again as his Son collectively.

    There are many OT quotes in the salvation of Israel for that reason. But Israel would not be saved. The rulers rejected their Messiah. It was really the will of God to save that nation as one man. Then he would bless the gentiles through Israel. Only a few of the people of Israel received Jesus Christ and the nation was guilty of putting him to death. So, our Lord Jesus is gone into heaven and established his kingdom in a mystery form. At this time his citizens are in a kingdom that has no earthly boundaries and has an inheritance in heaven. We do not refer to him as King but as Lord. He is the "Lord" Jesus Christ. He will come back to establish his earthly kingdom and at that time he will kill those who will not accept his rule. This killing business can and will go both ways.

    Lu 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
    11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
    12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
    13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
    14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
    15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
    16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
    17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
    18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
    19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
    20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
    21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
    22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
    23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
    24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give [it] to him that hath ten pounds.
    25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
    26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
    27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

    Predestination is in the context of this spiritual kingdom, not the physical kingdom. I will explain more later.
     
  10. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    JD, be honest. Your subject has been to force your dispensationalist bias upon scripture in trying to understand predestination. In so doing, you widely miss the mark.
     
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  11. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    John 13: Jesus answered, “It is he to whom I shall give a piece of bread when I have dipped it.” And having dipped the bread, He gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. 27 Now after the piece of bread, Satan entered him. Then Jesus said to him, “What you do, do quickly.” 28 But no one at the table knew for what reason He said this to him. 29 For some thought, because Judas had the money box, that Jesus had said to him, “Buy those things we need for the feast,” or that he should give something to the poor.

    30 Having received the piece of bread, he then went out immediately. And it was night.
     
  12. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    I believed by hearing the Gospel repeatedly until I carefully considered it, and, with my knowledge of science & history, realized it's true.
     
  13. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Wrong. They come from within the Bible. Don't think Jesus didn't give Judas the opportonity to repent & be saved? Please read John 13:21-30.
     
  14. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    Six hour alert
    This thread will be closed no sooner than 0130 GMT (Wed) 930 PM EDT / 630 PM PDT
     
  15. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    CHAPTER II

    "1 Cor. 15:46). It is of the utmost importance that this be understood; for the advocates of modern dispensationalism have wrought confusion, and have succeeded in giving plausibility to many misinterpretations of Scripture, by first taking for granted (erroneously, as will be herein shown) that a "literal" interpretation necessarily calls for something material or natural, and by then insisting strenuously that all prophecies which refer to Israel, Jerusalem, Zion, etc., should be interpreted "literally."

    "It will not be difficult to show that this is a thoroughly unsound principle of interpretation, that it is based upon a false premise, and that its application has made havoc of many prophecies.

    "For example, those expositors who think the Bible teaches us to expect hereafter a millennium of earthly bliss, a golden age of world-wide peace and plenty, [14] Gal. 3:7, 29; 2 Cor. 1:20). Further, in the New Testament it is plainly revealed that, even as "Abraham had two sons" (which [15] 1 Cor. 15:46).

    If, therefore, an O. T. prophecy of blessing, intended for the true Israel (that "holy nation" of 1 Pet. 2:9), be interpreted as applying to "Israel after the flesh," the interpretation is not "literal" (i. e., according to the letter) except in the sense in which "the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life" (2 Cor. 3:6); for obviously in this case the "literal" interpretation destroys the prophecy completely.

    "And it is specially to be noted that, in the passage from which this Scripture is quoted, Paul is explaining the great differences between the Old Covenant (which was of the letter) and the New Covenant (of the Spirit);

    "... and, moreover, he is comparing the ministry of Moses, which had to do with things that are seen (an earthly sanctuary and its vessels of service, animal sacrifices, etc.), with the ministry of himself and others whom God had made "able ministers of the New Covenant; not of the letter, but of the spirit."

    "Also it should be noted that the apostle there speaks of the Old Covenant (under which promises were made to the natural Israel) as "that which is done away"; whereas the New Covenant is [16] v. 11).

    "From this Scripture alone it is evident (and the same truth is set forth at greater length in Gal. 4:21-31 and Hebrews Chapters VIII-X) that all future promises of glory and blessing for Israel and Zion must belong to the true Israel and the heavenly Zion.

    "And, in this very passage, we are admonished to

    "look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen" (4:18);

    which admonition, however, is habitually disregarded in the interpretation of prophecies relating to these very subjects.

    We ask the reader specially to note that in the above quoted passage, the apostle speaks of the old covenant as "that which is done away" (v. 11),

    "that which is abolished" (v. 13).

    This shows that the old covenant, under which the earthly nation of Israel had been constituted, was already, in Paul's day, a thing of the past.

    "Evidently then our difficulty in understanding prophecies of the class referred to above is due to our lack of faith and our spiritual dullness.

    "For, in respect to the things which are not seen, faith takes the place of sight; for faith has to so solely with things not visible to the natural eye; and hope likewise, for "hope that is seen is not hope" (Rom. 8:24).

    "Wherefore it is written that,

    "faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen";

    and "through faith we understand" (Heb. 11:1, 3).
     
    #135 Alan Gross, Mar 21, 2023
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2023
  16. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    Having a Bible is a detriment to you and a couple others on this board. I think your credentials as a Baptist should be questioned. I have always been under the impression that a Baptist is someone who believes the scriptures, especially those that Jesus says a child can understand, The stuff you fellows have been putting out fits the doctrines of some questionable sects more than traditional Baptists, IMO.
     
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  17. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    LOL, here you are telling us that God's Word, which promises not to return void, is a detriment to us.
    Following a man-made dispensationalist dogma is certainly a detriment to you, but reading the Bible is not. It is precisely because I read the Bible that I recognized very clearly that my upbringing in dispensationalism was severely flawed.
    JD, I look at you and I see my 19 year old self.
     
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  18. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    There is no doubt in my mind that you are confused. I am just thankful that you did not go into a profession where your kind of thinking would put the whole world at risk, say like nuclear energy. So I am glad you are taking up your time in this place where you can potentially destroy only about 25 people with your type of reasoning and logic.
     
  19. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    You understood your so called dispensationalism about as well as you understand Romans 5:8.

    Do not go out into eternity believing you are a special class of sinners above other sinners. Think!
     
  20. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    HOW THE O. T. PROPHECIES CONCERNING ISRAEL
    ARE INTERPRETED BY PAUL

    "We shall be the better prepared for an examination of the O. T. prophecies concerning "the hope of Israel" if we first observe how those prophecies were interpreted by the N. T. writers, especially Paul.

    "Therefore we call attention at this point to a few N. T. passages.

    "When Porcius Festus remanded Paul for trial before King Herod Agrippa on the charges lodged against him by the Jews, and when the king had given the apostle leave to speak for himself, he said:

    "And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God unto our fathers; unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night hope to come. For which hope's sake, King Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews" (Ac. 26:6, 7).

    CHAPTER III

    "This is very definite. It proves that Paul, in preaching the gospel of Christ crucified and risen from the dead, was proclaiming to the people of Israel the fulfillment of God's promise to that people; a promise that had been made, not only to them through Moses and the prophets, but also directly to their fathers--Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

    "And this, be it noted, is in exact agreement with the testimony of Peter, who, writing to converted Jews of the dispersion and speaking of the prophets of Israel, said: [26] 1 Pet. 1:10-12).

    "Paul's statement to King Agrippa further proves that this gospel-salvation, which he preached, was and had been the hope of every true Israelite--"all our twelve tribes."

    "Therefore the true hope of Israel was not, and is not, an earthly kingdom which some future generation of Jews, men of flesh and blood, are to inherit. Furthermore, the true Israel of God, as Paul himself had previously explained in his Epistle to the Romans, is composed of believing Israelites according to the flesh, with believing Gentiles added to them, forming one body, as represented by the olive-tree of Romans XI.

    "The above statement of Paul to King Agrippa also makes clear what he meant by saying: "Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded" (Rom. 11:7). For the true hope and expectation of all Israel--"our twelve tribes"--lay in the resurrection, where the promise of "the sure mercies of David" was to be fulfilled (Acts 13:34).

    "It matters not that, as individuals, they were nearly all "blinded" to it, and were looking for a kingdom of earthly grandeur, suited to their carnal ideas; for the truth of their own Scriptures was that the kingdom of God, which had been promised by their prophets, was a spiritual kingdom, to be realized in the resurrection of the dead, and to be entered only by those who are born again of the Word and Spirit of God.

    "The Lord Jesus Himself had given the same teaching concerning the Kingdom of heaven (or Kingdom of [27] Matt. 18:3); and He goes on to show that to enter into that kingdom is to "enter into life" (vv. 8-11).

    "And this He followed up by declaring how hard it is for a rich man to enter into the kingdom (Matt. 19:16-26), calling it in one verse (23) "the kingdom of heaven," and in the next, "the kingdom of God."

    "And He concluded the lesson by saying to those who had forsaken all and followed Him; "Verily I say unto you, that ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye shall also sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel" (v. 28).

    "From this it appears that the "all Israel" of Scripture here designated as "the twelve tribes of Israel," is a spiritual nation; and that it shall come into its inheritance in the day of "glory," when the kingdom of God shall be manifested, and when Christ, who is now upon His Father's throne in heaven, shall occupy the throne of His glory.

    Returning now to Paul's defense before King Agrippa, we note his concluding words:

    "Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying"--not a new thing, a mystery never before revealed, but--"none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come"---not that Christ would restore earthly dominion to national Israel, as now is widely taught amongst Christians, but--"that Christ should suffer, and that He should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should show [28] Ac. 26:22, 23).

    Here is clear proof that the gospel proclaims nothing that was not foretold by the prophets; for, as we know from Paul's teaching elsewhere, the "mystery" of the gospel was that believing Gentiles were to become "fellow citizens with the saints and of the household of God," being made "fellow heirs [with saved Jews] and of the same body, and partakers [with saved Jews] of His promise in Christ"; and that all this was to be accomplished "by [means of] the gospel" (Eph. 2:11-22; 3:6, 9).

    And the last quoted passage also proves that the predicted manifestation of light to the people of Israel and to the Gentiles was to come after the sufferings of the promised Messiah and his resurrection from the dead. Here we have the statement of an inspired apostle as to what was the order of revelation as it stood when Christ appeared to the Jewish people;--not "the setting up of the Davidic kingdom," as stated by the leading exponent of modern dispensationalism, but--the sufferings of Christ and His resurrection from the dead, followed by the showing of Gospel light to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile. In other words, that "the next thing in the order of divine revelation" was precisely what came to pass.

    By this it appears that Paul's statement as to what was "the next thing in the order of revelation as it then stood" flatly contradicts that of the Scofield Reference Bible, quoted above.

    Likewise the apostle Peter, in a passage already quoted (1 Pet. 1:9-12), makes known what was "the next thing in the order of divine revelation" as it then stood; namely, the "salvation" concerning which the [29] prophets of Israel had enquired and searched diligently, searching what the Spirit of Christ who was in them did signify when He testified beforehand "the sufferings of Christ and the glories [plural] that should follow."
     
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