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Featured Timing of the Rapture

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by StefanM, Nov 11, 2023.

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  1. Pre-tribulation

    4 vote(s)
    20.0%
  2. Mid-tribulation

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. Post-tribulation

    6 vote(s)
    30.0%
  4. Other

    8 vote(s)
    40.0%
  5. I am unsure.

    2 vote(s)
    10.0%
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  1. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Is the Holy Spirit dwelling in us, the life of the resurrected Christ, in the body of us ? John 7:39 1 Cor 6:19

    Does Romans 8:11 describe what 2 Cor 5:1-4 says about, house of tabernacle? The mortal body being quickened with an immortal body?

    Has the last trump been sounded and the mortal corruptible, "body," been clothed in the incorruptible body, our house from heaven?

    Does that take place at the rapture? 1 Thes 4:14-18

    Did anyone put on their house from heaven in AD 66? Are you, today, flesh and blood?
     
  2. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    Yes, yes, yes, yes, and yes.

    But you are asking the wrong questions. Or, rather, you are leaving out important questions. To whom were these promises written?

    The blessings that first-century generation of Christians received are exactly what we will receive (minus the rapture event) when we die.
     
  3. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    This is not that helpful, since it is Blaising, one of the architects of progressive dispensationalism, which is not normative dispensationalism. In fact, I consider it to be a new theology altogether, for reasons I've already stated on this thread.

    The main error of this view is that it has compromised enough that it no longer looks much like dispensationalism. “Progressive dispensationalism, with its new hermeneutical method, its inaugurated eschatology, its emphasis on redemptive history, holistic salvation, and the single redeemed people of God in the present and future ages, displays so much similarity with the position of covenant premillennialism that non-dispensationalists also search for uniqueness in this movement.” (Roy Beacham, “Progressive Dispensationalism,” Detroit Baptist Seminary Journal 9 (2004: 5-32, p. 6.)


    31; emphasis in the original.
     
    #63 John of Japan, Nov 17, 2023
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2023
  4. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    The gathering of the church "together" from heaven and earth and its glorification must be understood in the context of the "the day of the LORD," one of the 4 major prophetic themes of the word of God, the other 3 being, the two comings to the earth of Jesus Christ, once to suffer and once to reign. The doctrine of the kingdom of God, and finally,the doctrine of the remnant. Understanding these themes is key to rightly divide the truth concerning the church of Jesus Christ and the rapture.

    The day of the LORD is in both testaments. It is mentioned by name 30 times in 29 verses in the KJV Bible and it is always in the context of a future event. It is always a day of wrath, vengence of God on the earth, judgement of the church for rewards in heaven and the nations on the earth, thick darkness, wrath of God and death, and it has a time frame of one thousand years, only the beginning being described as above but quickly giving way to light and peace with the coming of Christ to reign.

    The day of the LORD is mentioned in 12 books of the Bible by 17 authors over a period of about 1200 years. Both Paul and Peter mentions it. It is future until John in the revelation says this;

    Re 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
    10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,



    Re 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
    13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
    14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
    15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
    16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
    17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

    Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
    31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

    1 Th 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;
    10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

    The rapture takes place in the fullness of times, which is the seventh one thousand year day of human history in time created by God and it is his day of sabbath rest. He has spent 6 days of labor to redeem fallen man.

    Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
    8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
    9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
    10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
    11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

    This is my take on the timing of the rapture.
     
    #64 JD731, Nov 17, 2023
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2023
  5. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    The answer to your first question will be the great trib. And the rapture was not called by that term in ancient times, but it's mentioned in Scripture as "being taken up", etc.
     
  6. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
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    For those who believe in a posttribulational rapture, what is your view on who enters the millennial kingdom as mortal?
     
  7. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    I am surprised you do not see the significance of Jesus’s discourse in Matthew 24 and 25.

    Jesus is specifically answering the question of His disciples (which is question of the OP).
    Their question concerned His return and the end of the age.

    Jesus very clearly states His return is “after” the tribulation. It is very plainly stated. He describes His coming with the sound of the trumpet, how the angels shall gather the saints from the four corners of the earth (rapture) and then (Matthew 25) comes the great throne judgment.

    There is no 1000 year reign on earth, no establishing national Israel, no restored temple or sacrifices. Jesus reigns eternally in heaven and those “beheaded” during the tribulation will be given the great honor of reigning “with” Christ for 1000 years (in heaven)

    He never indicates His disciples will be raptured before the tribulation and, in fact, states the very opposite on many occasions that His disciples will be persecuted and will experience the tribulation. He says those that endure to the end will be saved.

    God’s unconditional promises to Abraham were fulfilled in the person of Jesus (his seed, not seeds, as Paul notes)

    Paul is clear in Romans that the “heirs” are children of the promise, not “ethnic” Israel. The “children of the promise” are comprised of Jew and Gentiles and together they are the “Israel of God”

    And again, Paul is clear there is no longer a distinction between Jew and Gentile. Both groups have been brought together as “one new man” by the cross of Jesus and have access to God by Holy Spirit.

    That work cannot be undone. The one new man cannot be separated. There is no separate future for national Israel.

    peace to you
     
  8. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    There is no millennial kingdom on the earth. The passage in Revelations says those that are “beheaded” during the tribulation will be given the honor of reigning with Christ for 1000 years. Jesus reigns in heaven

    peace to you
     
  9. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    The Day of the Lord is not the Rapture.
    The Day of the Lord is Jesus return to judge the wicked and bring in the new heavens and new earth while burning this old earth with fire.
    God will, in one fell swoop, damn all those in rebellion to him to eternal hell.
    That is the Day of the Lord. May it be a frightening reminder to all who stand in opposition to our King.
     
  10. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    Progressive Dispensationalism does try to merge traditional dispensationalism with covenant theology.
    It's not new theology. It's a mashup that tries to find reconciliation between the two primary theologies in evangelical circles.
    From my perspective you have an utter distain for covenant theology and you seem unwilling to entertain that dispensationalism has any flaws or inconsistencies. Your opinion is quite biased and I don't take it as anything more than a grain of salt. Yet, you are welcome to remain ensconced in your camp.
     
  11. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    We are in the great tribulation period.
    (1 Thessalonians 5:1-11)
    Now concerning how and when all this will happen, dear brothers and sisters, we don’t really need to write you. For you know quite well that the day of the Lord’s return will come unexpectedly, like a thief in the night. When people are saying, “Everything is peaceful and secure,” then disaster will fall on them as suddenly as a pregnant woman’s labor pains begin. And there will be no escape. But you aren’t in the dark about these things, dear brothers and sisters, and you won’t be surprised when the day of the Lord comes like a thief. For you are all children of the light and of the day; we don’t belong to darkness and night. So be on your guard, not asleep like the others. Stay alert and be clearheaded. Night is the time when people sleep and drinkers get drunk. But let us who live in the light be clearheaded, protected by the armor of faith and love, and wearing as our helmet the confidence of our salvation. For God chose to save us through our Lord Jesus Christ, not to pour out his anger on us. Christ died for us so that, whether we are dead or alive when he returns, we can live with him forever. So encourage each other and build each other up, just as you are already doing.

    When the day of the Lord comes, we will meet Him as He comes.
    (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17)
    We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the Christians who have died will rise from their graves. Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever.

    The Bible, nowhere, teaches a pre-trib rapture. It is a figment of dispensationalist imagination.
     
  12. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Of course I do. Why wouldn't I? I love that discourse and have studied it many times, and translated it into Japanese.

    Right.

    Exactly! I agree!

    Okay, that's a new one. Never heard this interpretation--reigning in Heaven if you've been beheaded.

    No, He left that up to the Apostle Paul. There was no reason to discuss the Rapture in the Olivet Discourse.

    That's not the opposite. There will be disciples who suffer in the 7 year tribulation after the Rapture. I have no trouble reconciling that.

    But God gave those unconditional promises to the ethnic Jews, not to the Gentiles. So if you are correct, God went back on His Word. But He would never do that. As an ethical man, I keep my word. "LORD, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? who shall dwell in thy holy hill? ...He that sweareth to his own hurt, and changeth not" (Psalm 15:1 & 4). Where do I get that? God Himself! He will keep His covenant's with the Jews.
    Paul would not reinterpret a promise given to the Jews. The Abrahamic Covenant was to Abraham. The father of the Jewish nation. The Mosaic Covenant was to Moses, the Law Giver of the Jews. The Davidic Covenant was for a king of the Jews.

    Paul is actually clear in Romans 9 that he himself was a Jew, and God would not abandon the Jews: "4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen."



    That is very obviously only in the church.

    Again, God made covenants--promises--to the Jews, and He never breaks His Word. "God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar" (Romans 3:4).
     
  13. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Agreed.
    My view is post-trib pre-wrath pre-milleniumal.

    1 Thessalonians 1:10, ". . . And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. . . ."
     
  14. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    We are presently in the 1000 year (not meant to be a literal 1000 years) binding of Satan.

    Our brothers and sisters, who have been martyred for the faith, are presently reigning with Christ in the heavenlies. They receive great honor for having followed our King all the way to the cross. They refused to worship the Beast (in China, in North Korea, in Muslim countries, in Hindu countries, in this world) and now they reign with Christ.

    (Revelation 20:1-6)
    Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the bottomless pit and a heavy chain in his hand. He seized the dragon—that old serpent, who is the devil, Satan—and bound him in chains for a thousand years. The angel threw him into the bottomless pit, which he then shut and locked so Satan could not deceive the nations anymore until the thousand years were finished. Afterward he must be released for a little while.

    Then I saw
    thrones, and the people sitting on them had been given the authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony about Jesus and for proclaiming the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years. This is the first resurrection. (The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.) Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. For them the second death holds no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him a thousand years.
     
  15. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Exactly. And the effort is unsuccessful.

    You are welcome to your opinion.

    From my perspective, you have an utter disdain for Dispensationalism. And you don't even know much about it. I asked for your definition of "dispensation," and you never gave it. I don't think you even know what it means.

    As for what I think of Dispensationalism, of course there are problems. You've never asked me if I thought there were problems in Dispensationalism, so of course you don't know what I think.

    But I see no reason to further interact with you about the theology until I can see that you actually understand it. For crying out loud, you think the JWs are Dispensationalists! I double dog dare you to prove that one. :D
     
  16. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    John, if you are actually a teacher of theology, what @canadyjd said is not new at all. Are you trying to say that you are ignorant of other biblical theology besides dispensationalism?


    So far the tribulation has been from Pentecost to the present so...indeed disciples of Christ are suffering.


    God gave the unconditional promise to Abraham, which includes all believers in the Promised One, Christ Jesus. You and me. Paul tells us that a Jew is not a Jew by circumcision of the flesh (Romans 2). God has never gone back on His word. He has fulfilled it to His chosen people, you and me and all who believe.



    Paul is clear in saying that not all Israel is Israel in Romans 9. That only those chosen to be justified by faith in Christ Jesus are truly Israel. He bemoans the fact that ethnic Israel has rejected the Messiah and wishes that they would repent. He tells us in Romans 11 that they would be grafted in if they believed.

    God made a covenant promise to Abraham, who was not a Jew. He was a Hebrew (one who came from the other side of the River). God made an unconditional promise to him, which would bless all nations.

    You seem to misunderstand the Abrahamic Covenant and it's universal, eternal nature as it promises the Anointed One for all who are chosen (from every nation, tribe, and tongue). You are trying to force God into your tiny parameters and it doesn't work.
     
  17. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    What does "dispensation" mean?
     
  18. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Wow. That's a huge leap. Yes, I teach theology, but never claimed to be a know-it-all. :rolleyes:
     
  19. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    No distain for dispensationalism. It is a newer theology that significantly misses the full message of the Bible and turns the Bible into separate pieces, like a person who is tearing down a completed puzzle. It is severely flawed. My opinion comes from having been taught it from childhood and into college and having instructors be unwilling to even entertain that it might not be correct. When I embarked upon studying God's word without bias, I came to understand that dispensationalism simply doesn't make any eschatological sense. This means my many Godward friends are missing out on present blessing because they are looking at Jesus present activity in this world through a faulty lens. Far from disdain, I find pity for all who are dreaming of a pre-trib rapture that will never come.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    Which Bible Dictionary do you want to accept?

    Shall we go with, "An arrangement of things."???
     
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