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Featured Timing of the Rapture

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by StefanM, Nov 11, 2023.

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  1. Pre-tribulation

    4 vote(s)
    20.0%
  2. Mid-tribulation

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  3. Post-tribulation

    6 vote(s)
    30.0%
  4. Other

    8 vote(s)
    40.0%
  5. I am unsure.

    2 vote(s)
    10.0%
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  1. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    You have actually been quite pompous in many threads. I am surprised that you didn't know a basic component of covenant theology.
     
  2. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    Maybe you mean 1 Thess. 4;16. But that passage speaks clearly of the Lord's coming at that event (see preceding verses 14-16). Your view would have a second and yet a third coming of the Lord. But this is all one general event. However Dispensationalism contrives an artificial separation between these two aspects, rapture and judgment.

    It is amazing that I used to believe in this whole system. It is so plainly contrary to the clear teaching of Scripture. It is also clear that the rapture event happened already in the first century, three and a half years before the AD 70 fall of Jerusalem.

    Like I wrote earlier, all Christians at their death will also be changed and meet the Lord. We just won't have the rapture experience that those surviving saints had in AD 66.
     
  3. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    There can only be one second appearing, Hebrews 9:28, ". . . So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. . . ."
     
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  4. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    I did.

    The OT redeemed are the firstfruits.

    The Second Coming.

    The return of creation itself at the end of the Millennial reign of Christ on the earth.

    Firstfruits.

    Second Coming.

    The end.

    3 times.
     
  5. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Thoughts relative to:

    1 Cor 15:20-23 for since through man is the death, also through man is a rising again of the dead, for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive, and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence, < 1 Thes 4:13-18 And I do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, that ye may not sorrow, as also the rest who have not hope, or if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also God those asleep through Jesus he will bring with him, for this to you we say in the word of the Lord, that we who are living -- who do remain over to the presence of the Lord -- may not precede those asleep, because the Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first, then we who are living, who are remaining over, together with them shall be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be; The beginning of the Day of the Lord >< 5:1,2 And concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need of my writing to you, for yourselves have known thoroughly that the day of the Lord as a thief in the night doth so come,

    What takes place at the end of the day of the Lord? I believe: 1 Cor 15:25,26 for it behoveth him to reign till he may have put all the enemies under his feet -- the last enemy is done away -- death;

    Then new Jerusalem comes down from heaven.
     
  6. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    You have obviously read my previous post where I spoke of the 30 times over 1200 years this day of the Lord is mentioned by name. One would think that a subject that is placed under discussion for that length of time and that often is a subject that can be understood by studying it. It is definitely not a mystery. It is well defined.

    The rapture of the church is a mystery. So you are correct that the day of the Lord is not the rapture of the church of Jesus Christ. The doctrine of the day of the Lord predates the church by centuries. Look at this;

    Eze 30:3 For the day is near, even the day of the LORD is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen.
    Joe 1:15 Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.
    Joe 2:11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
    Am 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.
    Ob 1:15 For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.

    The church of Jesus Christ are children of the light, and the day of the Lord is darkness and not light.

    1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.(why? Because Christians study their Bibles)
    2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
    3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
    4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
    5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
    6 ¶ Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
    7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
    8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
    9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation (deliverance) by (one probably does not see this preposition in all Bibles but it is important to the text) our Lord Jesus Christ,
    10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
    11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.


    4991 σωτηρία soteria [so-tay-ree’-ah]
    feminine of a derivative of 4990 as (properly, abstract) noun; n f; TDNT-7:965,1132; [{See TDNT 779 }]
    AV-salvation 40, the (one) be saved 1, deliver + 1325 1, health 1, saving 1, that (one) be saved + 1519 1; 45
    1) deliverance, preservation, safety, salvation
    1a) deliverance from the molestation of enemies

    Ze 1:14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
    15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

    This will probably not help you and those like you because you do not believe the words you read and accept the logic, but it might cause some to think.
     
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  7. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Why is this the Second Coming? Because it is so obvious?

    Luke 12:40
    "Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not."


    Matthew 24:44
    "Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh."

    How can you take an obvious passage when Jesus declared it is when you least expect it?

    Peter said it was a thief in the night event:

    "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

    Do the heavens burn up and all the works on earth burn up in Revelation 19?

    John declared a thief in the night event:

    "Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame."

    Revelation 19 is not a thief in the night event. In fact, this return is to Armageddon, and all the armies left are gathered to fight Jesus. How can it be a surprise if they are all waiting on a battlefield to fight against the Lamb?

    "For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty."

    "And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon."

    "And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful."

    This is still talking about Revelation 19.

    The Second Coming is in the book of Revelation, obviously not stated as obvious.
     
  8. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    Who would really know if he read this text you have written? It is almost senseless.

    The day of the Lord is 1000 years long. We do not have to guess about that if we are Bible believers. We are told 6 times in Re 19. Almost all the passages where the Day of the Lord is mentioned is speaking of the beginning of the day. A Jewish day begins in the evening and gives way to light. Then the next evening is the beginning of another day. The days of the Lord are 1000 year days and there are 7 of them equaling one week of one thousand year days. We are living at the end of day 6. The next day is the sabbath day of the Lord. Then, after that, will be the eighth day, called in scripture the "day of God." The number 8 in scripture is the number for new beginnings and the day of God is the 8th day and is an eternal day. It will never end and there will be no night in it.

    But Peter is speaking of the end of the day of the Lord. This is a judgement of the great white throne and the fire baptism of the earth and creation where it is purified by fire and made new. Nothing impure will survive to enter into the day of God.

    2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

    9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
    10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
    11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
    12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
    13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
    14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

    May the Lord be pleased with this post where I am telling the truth about his work.
     
  9. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    They received those blessing too, the moment they physically died, minus the rapture and Second Coming. Only those alive and remain will be gathered, and then no church on earth past that point, until the NHNE.

    The church is not on earth during the Day of the Lord. There is no reason for the church to be here, any more than all the OT and NT combined, should still be walking around on the earth, today. No one even hardly mentions all the sons of God who never rebelled, yet were still in council with God in the time of Job after the Flood, and obviously to this very day. Where does Scripture state God stopped holding council with the sons of God? Is that a dispensational thing, even to those who reject dispensations?

    Amillenial thought arises because one cannot reconcile God's Word in one's mind, so one changes certain aspects of Scripture to make more sense.

    Enoch and the sons of God were removed to never return unless necessary, while Noah went through the Flood to replenish and subdue the earth. The Cross allowed those souls in Abraham's bosom to receive a physical body to enter physical Paradise, unless necessary to return. The NT church was left to fill and subdue the earth. At the Second Coming, the church is removed. The final harvest firstfruits go through the time of Judgment to once again remain on the earth to fill and subdue the earth. For a thousand years there is no natural sin and death from human nature. Satan is barred from deceiving and influencing human kind. It will be as different during the Lord's Day from now, as between the OT and the NT.

    So the point is that those who are removed do not stick around or this current creation would be overpopulated from the get go. One would think with the size of the New Jerusalem, that the new earth would have room for hundreds of cities that size, but would obviously start out with only one. But that one city would hold all those who currently reside in Paradise and around the throne, we just have to wait patiently until God is finished with this creation.
     
  10. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    See this is a change to Scripture. The word "grave" is not used nor even implied. That is a presupposition.

    They arise from Paradise where they are fully alive. The church meets between earth and Paradise. Being forever with the Lord is not the same as being forever with Jesus, only a third of the 3 persons that exist as One Lord. The fact remains, the Lord sends Jesus to the Mount of Olives at that point per Zechariah 14.

    And the Lord seated on the GWT can be seen from earth, at that moment. They are hiding in fear from both the face of the one seated on the throne and the Lamb. Revelation 6. Matthew 25 is not the GWT. Matthew 25 is Jesus on his glorious throne in a Temple in Jerusalem. Two thrones will be seen soon after the Second Coming. The sheep and goats are very much physically alive although still dead. But not the dead, who stand in Revelation 20 before the GWT. Those dead are physically dead.
     
  11. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    It is obviously post the tribulation of the church over the last 1993 years. Jesus said that much:

    "And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
    All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake."

    The church would always suffer tribulation. If not, they were doing it wrong, or inflicting it upon others, wrongly. That is the tribulation of those days. "Enduring until the end" is not longevity and lasting for 7 years. Endurance is remaining faithful even to death, in one's obedience to God. Each individual's own life span. The day of redemption is physical death, when one leaves death behind for eternal life.
     
  12. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The Tribulation, Matthew 24:21 is yet future.
     
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  13. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    Armageddon means "Mountain of Assembly." It is an apocalyptic place of judgment that presents this present age as warring against the Lamb (the Church is found in Christ the Lamb). Satan and the Beast stir up the nations to destroy the Church. This is the outcome of Satan being unbound after " 1000" years of being restrained from trying to destroy the church. A last attempt is made to wipe out the church (the woman of Romans 12). This evil bunch is going to try go to the Mount of God where the saints are assembled and then Christ, the captain of the Lord's Army, comes out to wipe the Beast, the false prophet, and the Dragon into hell. Then comes the Bride in all her splendor.

    The thief in the night is not a different coming. It is an expression of how quickly and suddenly, without expectation, the Lord returns to avenge His people.

    When the Bible tells us that one will be taken and the other left, it is referring to the judgment. The one taken is removed to eternal damnation. The one left remains with Christ Jesus as the bride. So, those who believe in the pre-trib rapture get Jesus story backwards.
     
  14. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    It is this present age. No time in history has seen the mass holocaust of this present world...and Satan is still not fully released. We, the Church, have been growing, but we grow under persecution. Don't let this little island of religious freedom fool you. While the US hasn't yet persecuted the Church, Babylon the Great has seduced the Church in many terrible ways.
    Will this tribulation get worse? I suspect, yes. I don't think the 1000 year binding of Satan has come to an end. When it does, capitalism (the harlot) will be destroyed. Socialism will bring in the fullness of the Beast and economic chaos will be great. The Church will be blamed as it's prophets stand against the Beast. All the Church will go underground as though dead, but will arise again with their King's return.

    Therefore, keep enduring to the end.
     
  15. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    That is Jacob's trouble, not the tribulation given to the church to experience.
     
  16. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    So you are convinced the world is now in the tribulation mentioned in Matthew 24:21. Give what has to be irrefutable evidence that this has to be the case.
     
  17. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Why?
     
  18. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    None of that is how Scripture portrays the Second Coming. Zechariah 14 states that Jesus returns to the Mount of Olives. Acts 1 implies Jesus returns to the Mount of Olives to gather the sheep. Jesus said He would return to gather many to Him.

    Armageddon is the valley of decision. But God gathers the last of humankind to that battle. The Second Coming is the final harvest. Armageddon is the winepress after the final harvest. 8 billion people do not show up at Armageddon. Your view literally claims that all humanity alive right now, all 8 billion arrive at Armageddon to wait for the Second Coming.

    How is that a thief in the night moment if they are all waiting at one spot on the map?

    Besides, Revelation 20 where you claim Satan is loosed is not the entire population heading to Armageddon. There will be a percentage of humanity that rebels, surrounding the camp of the saints, another percentage of humanity. Not all humans are deceieved, nor do half surround the other half.

    Armageddon is not about the camp of the saints, but the valley of decision.

    The one taken and the other left is describing the days of Noah and Sodom leading up to the Second Coming. It is not about the Second Coming at all. Both sides have that wrong.

    You are not even consistent. You claim the camp of the saints is on the earth, then Armageddon surrounds that camp, then the enemy is destroyed, and then the saints come from heaven.

    The FP, the beast, and Satan make up the 8th empire on earth for 42 months. That happens after the 7th Trumpet starts to sound. That empire only last for 42 months. You have that 42 months drag on for the last 1,000 (literally 1993 years of church history) years, because that is your indefinite time of humans being beheaded. Those beheaded are only given that option during the 42 months between the Second Coming and the winepress of Armageddon. They are not martyrs. They are beheaded to avoid receiving the mark. Obviously the Second Coming and final harvest are already over at that point. These are the gleanings during the AoD. Their harvest is at the point of their decision to chop off their head as their testimony of obedience.

    "Them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads."

    This is the only verse that mentions how they died and why they died. The alter call was the point of them loosing their head. That is how they were harvested. They are not the church. They are not martyrs. They are slain out of death, not by accepting in faith, but by chopping their head off as an act of faith, not knowing what would happen next. They did not experience life until they lost their head. Being slain in the context of Revelation is leaving Adam's dead flesh. No one takes Adam's dead corruptible flesh into the Day of the Lord, the 1,000 years Satan is bound, and the FP and Beast are in the LOF. They are in the LOF for the same 1,000 years, Satan is bound. Those beheaded live on earth for the entire 1,000 years. They are beheaded and receive the first resurrection prior to the 1,000 years. A resurrection is not being put back into Adam's dead corruptible flesh. The first resurrection is literally receiving God's permanent incorruptible physical body, to never physically die again.

    Yes, the church since the Cross, both OT and NT are physically enjoying Paradise serving God day and night in that heavenly temple. They don't have to behead themselves to do so. All of the church in Paradise have experienced the first resurrection. They have been resurrected first, and no living human even those alive in the first century could prevent that experience nor enter Paradise before those already resurrected. But even amill don't recognize that point, though they claim those beheaded are all reigning with Christ. Those beheaded have not even physically died yet. That only happens after the Second Coming.
     
  19. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    Armageddon = Mount of Assembly. It is in perfect alignment with Zechariah 14.
    Revelation...reveals what Zechariah was pointing at. John constantly alludes to the prophets in Revelation, showing you how they connect.

    The idea that Armageddon is a valley is biblically unfounded and another cause for misinterpretation by dispensationalists.

    We have witnessed our brothers being beheaded in Muslim countries today. We are in the tribulation.

    Thankfully one's eschatology doesn't affect one's salvation. I love my dispensationalist brothers even while shaking my head at such poor eschatology.
     
  20. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Jeremiah 30:6-11

    "Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it. For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: But they shall serve the Lord their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them. Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the Lord; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid. For I am with thee, saith the Lord, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet I will not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished."

    God will deal directly with Jacob by sending Jesus to earth with His angels. Zechariah 14. Matthew 13. Matthew 25. The final harvest is not about the church. The church is harvested via the second birth into God's heavenly kingdom. Jacob is an earthly kingdom from Jerusalem. We see this as Jacob by the direct sealing of the 144k direct descendants of Jacob in Revelation 7. A distinction between them on the earth, and the church already in heaven.
     
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