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Featured Timing of the Rapture

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by StefanM, Nov 11, 2023.

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  1. Pre-tribulation

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  2. Mid-tribulation

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  3. Post-tribulation

    6 vote(s)
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  4. Other

    8 vote(s)
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  5. I am unsure.

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  1. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    taisto, Sadly, it is evident from your input on the Revelation that you have not previously prepared yourself to understand the great truths contained therein. If it were possible to magically throw a switch and turn perfect light on in your mind, you would be ashamed of how badly you have missed it's truths.

    One can think of the scriptures beginning to end in railroad terminology. It has an initial terminal in Ge 1:1 where the long journey begins and one starts out with only a locomotive. The end of the route is the final terminal where the train is yarded with many freight cars it has picked up at various stations and side tracks along the way and are dispersed to their proper track in the yard. Until this time the cars have been on their way but have not arrived.

    This is the same way it is when one gets saved. He leaves the station knowing nothing but is brought along by the source of power, the engine. He picks up the doctrines of faith on the route of life. This reminds me of the testimony of Paul, who said in the letter that he knew all the mysteries of the faith, but said this about the beginning of his journey.

    1Co 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

    He said this later.

    1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; .......

    Substitute the freight cars that are picked up along the ways as doctrines of the faith. If one fails to pick up the doctrines as he comes to them, then there will not be a full train at the final terminal and the train will be incomplete, the tracks for those missing doctrines being empty.

    I see you have arrived at the final terminal with an incomplete train, several cars on the route being being passed by and left behind.
     
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  2. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Revelation 20:4-6. Who are the people Christ and His saints going to rule?
     
  3. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Physical death happens when you chop off your head. Is this word "beheaded" supposed to be symbolic for something other than physically removing one's head?

    "Beheaded" is pretty specific. The Greek word is only used in this chapter.

    If one is not physically dead how does beheaded relate to being spiritually dead?

    Amill just assume that every one is beheaded, even those who die in their sleep. It is symbolic of being "in Christ" instead of "in Satan". Those with the mark are "in Satan".

    Being a martyr can take many forms, and being beheaded is one of many. John the Baptist was beheaded. But no Amil states John the Baptist is the poster child of these souls in Revelation 20:4. John the Baptist was beheaded prior to their millennium. So why do they not herald him as being resurrected and has reigned with Christ as stated?

    "and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; (Of whom the world was not worthy: ) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:"

    Plenty of examples of martyrs prior to the Cross who should be resurrected and currently reigning with Christ, according to Amil.

    But they don't interpret Scripture that way. They only change the past, without wanting to incorporate the actual past in their theology.

    Revelation 20:4 is not about the church at all, directly. Though the church may be seated on the thrones judging these beheaded souls. This is the last harvest out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh given eternal life. And they arrived at that point by chopping off their head as testimony to Jesus Christ. So in the aftermath of Armageddon, while Satan is bound for a thousand years, these beheaded redeemed are given life and also live and reign on the earth during the same thousand years. That is their redemption, being able to live on earth and not tossed into the LOF.
     
  4. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Their offspring. That is the point of subduing the earth as stated in Genesis 1:28

    "And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

    That is what humanity has done in sin for 6,000 years. Now they will rule over all their descendants, because no one naturally dies. Those at the start of the Millennial will see that reign until the very end, when sadly those last few generations may rebel.
     
  5. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    You are agreeing with me. The day of the Lord is 1000 years from the resurrection of those who are Christ's in the manner spoken in 1 Thes 4:13-18 until the rest of the dead are raised ie the last enemy to be destroyed, followed with the lake of fire and then the kingdom is delivered to the Father.
     
  6. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    No, not even close.

    (Revelation 7:3)
    “Wait! Don’t harm the land or the sea or the trees until we have placed the seal of God on the foreheads of his servants.”

    We believers have the mark of God.

    The entire letter of Revelation is about Christ Jesus and his chosen people, the Church, the Israel of God.

    We shall live eternally with Christ on the renewed earth as the new Garden.

    Revelation is entirely for us and our great encouragement.
     
  7. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    The tribulation was ongoing when John penned the book:

    9 I John, your brother and partaker with you in tribulation and kingdom and patience which are in Jesus, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. Rev 1

    It's done already, ancient history:

    21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be.
    34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24

    19 For those days shall be tribulation, such as there hath not been the like from the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never shall be.
    30 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, until all these things be accomplished. Mk 13

    22For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
    23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.
    32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lu 21

    34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
    35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
    36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
    37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gahered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Mt 23
     
    #127 kyredneck, Nov 19, 2023
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2023
  8. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    This article further says, "As to the precise character of this spiritual rule of Christ, AMs differ." Thus, this doctrine is not a mainstay of the amil position, as you say.

    Great. So Hoekema holds to it. One author does not make this doctrine a mainstay of amil theology.

    Furthermore, there are many theological liberals who are amil, and they certainly would not hold to Christ reigning in any way, shape, or form. There are also many Catholic amillennialists who would deny the doctrine. So again, the doctrine in question is not a mainstay of amillennialism. You are projecting your own beliefs on the movement as a whole.

    "Liberal amillennialism denies such doctrines as resurrection, judgment, the second advent, eternal punishment, and related subjects. Roman amillennialism evolved the system of purgatory, limbo, and such non-Biblical doctrines, which have become a part of their system" (J. Dwight Pentecost, Things to Come, pp. 389-390).

    I feel sorry for you, that you hold a position so easily taken by ungodly people such as liberals and Catholics.
    Not in the slightest.
     
    #128 John of Japan, Nov 20, 2023
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2023
  9. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    For taisto and others completely ignorant of dispensationalism, here are some definitions of the word "dispensation" (which in the theology is not "an orderly arrangement" or a period of time):

    The Greek word is oikonomia (οἰκονομία), which occurs three times as “stewardship” in Luke 16:1-4. (The parable continues to v. 10.) Thus, the Greek word occurs a total of seven times in the New Testament.

    Friberg’s lexicon defines this word thus: “(1) literally, relating to the task of an οἰκονόμος (steward) in household administration stewardship, management (LU 16.2); (2) figuratively; (a) of the apostolic office in God's redemptive work task, responsibility, trusteeship (CO 1.25); (b) of God's arrangements for mankind's redemption plan, arrangement, purpose (EP 3.9); 1T 1.4 may mean (divine) training, but (divine) plan is also possible.” (Timothy Friberg, Barbara Friberg and Neva Miller, Analytical Lexicon of the Greek New Testament. Grand Rapids: Baker, 2000, 279.)

    Chafer gives a good definition: “A dispensation is a specific, divine economy, a commitment from God to man of a responsibility to discharge that which God has appointed him.” (Lewis Sperry Chafer, Systematic Theology, Vol. VII. Dallas: Dallas Seminary Press, 1948, 122.)

    I'll write later on what the rapture means in light of these meanings.
     
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  10. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    I have highlighted my disagreement.
    Chafer, and all dispensationalists use a man-made economy created by their own bias, not by God, to determine dispensations. They take a word, used in the Bible, and then they manufacture their own "dispensations" while telling others not to question them.

    Even now you use a standard dismissal of opponents by simply saying they are "completely ignorant" as the guise for never questioning their man-made divisions of the Bible.

    While I respect Chafer, his eschatology is terrible, as is anyone's who follow his eschatology.
     
  11. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    Have you taken any of us Baptists on the board to be liberals who deny the deity of Christ and His Sovereignty?

    I suggest you listen to Voddie Baucham, John Piper, Eric Alexander, Sinclair Ferguson, and RC Sproul to help you out.
     
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  12. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    It does not matter in the slightest what I think of amil people on the BB, or what modern evangelicals are amil. What I stated is a fact of history: many liberals and Catholics are amil. Period.

    You may not like this, but you can't change history.

    What this very obviously means is that one does not have to be a Bible believing Christian to embrace amillennialism. You may not like that, but it's true. On the other hand, there are no liberal or Catholic writers or scholars who accept dispensationalism. Not a single one! One has to interpret the Bible literally and believe it is God's Word in order to become a dispensationalist. If you dispute this, please find a liberal or Catholic scholar who is a dispensationalist. I'll be waiting.
     
    #132 John of Japan, Nov 20, 2023
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2023
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  13. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Mainly you, since you could not give the meaning in dispensationalism of the term "dispensation." (Which, by the way, is the meaning of the word in Eph. 1:10.)

    And how many decades has it been since you read Chafer? In Ryrie's taxonomy, what kind of dispensationalist was he?
     
  14. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    First, I want to address something you said to another poster. I am a Bible believing Christian and I believe scripture teaches a-mil. I don’t know what Catholics believe, or others particularly, I just know what I believe scripture teaches.

    I believe scripture in the context it was written. If it is supposed to be taken literally, I take it literally. If not, then I don’t take it literally.

    The point of Revelation 20, concerning the 1000 year reign with Christ is symbolic. It is saying those who have stood firm in the faith during the tribulation (beheaded) will be rewarded. Christ reigns in heaven.

    The number 1000 is often used symbolically among the Hebrew people (Samson slew 1000 with jawbone of an ass: Saul slew 1000’s but David slew 10,000’s) The number 1000 is simply a very large number difficult to count, 10,000 is a indefinite number too large to count; according to my Hebrew prof.

    Much of Revelation is symbolic, obviously. According to my Greek prof; John does not write in chronological order. He writes in repeated themes. Here is a brief summary as I see it.

    The setting for the scene in heaven is the great throne judgment. During a Roman trial, there were two types of scrolls that had 7 seals; Death penalty cases and Wills. Only certain people were authorized to break the seals.

    Each seal had a brief summary that describes the contents of the seal. Everything that is revealed when the seals are broken has already occurred… it is The Great Throne Judgment. God is judging what is contained in the scrolls…. A record of the history of God’s dealings with mankind, of Satan and of the Redemption brought by our Lord Jesus.

    The final verdict is delivered. Christ reigns in heaven, His people have joy and peace. All others are thrown into eternal punishment with Satan and his demons.

    That’s how I see it. I know many will disagree.

    peace to you
     
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  15. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    How do you get the 1000 year reign with Christ is symbolic?

    How do you get "in heaven?"
     
  16. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    I explained all of that in post#134.

    peace to you
     
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  17. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    I provided you with the meaning. Perhaps you missed that post.

    Second, what I receive from this is your disdain for anyone who disagrees with your specific view of dispensationalism. You so narrow the subject that you even have disdain for those who call themselves Progressive Dispensationalist's, essentially calling them heretics.
    Mostly, I see a person who has bathed himself in dispensationalism for his career and now cannot comprehend any other, legitimate, way of interpreting eschatology.
    Meanwhile, here we are, people like myself, @canadyjd, and others who have learned dispensationalism and found it to be very poor eschatology that butchers Revelation like a 5 year old cutting up a turkey for Thanksgiving. The turkey is still edible, but it's been hacked and sliced in ways that it was never meant to be cut.

    If that's your preference, no one will stop you. But, for a number of us here, dispensationalism (futurism)misses the mark while amillenialism provides a beautiful and very practical understanding to the whole of the Bible.

    Best wishes to you John.
     
  18. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    z
    The Hebrew number 1000 means a thousand, unless it is used to refer to a herd of animals or cammand of men under one leader.

    A 1000 yrars is 1000 years. 1000 days are a 1000 days.

    You collapsed events. The 1000 years are clearly on earth. Revelation 20:7-9,
    ". . . And when the thousand years have expired, Satan shall be loosed from his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and encompassed the camp of the saints, . . ."
     
  19. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    So, God only owns the cattle on 1000 hills, not 999 or 1001. Is that correct?
    (Psalm 50:10)
    For all the animals of the forest are mine, and I own the cattle on a thousand hills.

    Oh, that's right, the exception is to cattle...

    The number, 1000,is symbolic in Revelation as is all the other numbers used in Revelation.

    Like Matthew 1, John employs "gematria" as a numerical principle.
     
    #139 taisto, Nov 20, 2023
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2023
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  20. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    More than 10,000 hllls still has a 1000 hills. ". . . fell in one day three and twenty thousand. . . .". Twenty four thousand still died. 1 Corinthians 10:8, Numbers 25:9.
     
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