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Featured What does "The Limited Atonement" actually proclaim? What are the Scriptural Proofs?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Alan Gross, Jan 31, 2024.

  1. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    The Doctrine of Limited Atonement:
    w/ Scriptural Proofs.

    Post content is taken from Rev. Paul Treick’s book,
    Faith of Our Fathers, Living Still:
    A Study of the Five Points of Calvinism,


    "Outline and Proofs from the Bible."

    "The overwhelming evidence from Scripture
    is that Christ came to save a very definite number of people
    (those given to Him by the Father).

    "In this regard, see the following texts:"


    Matt. 1:21 “And she will bring forth a Son,
    and you shall call His name Jesus,
    for He will save His people from their sins.”

    Matt. 20:28 “… just as the Son of Man did not come to be served,
    but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”

    Matt. 26:28 “For this is My blood of the new covenant,
    which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”

    John 10:11, 15 “I am the good shepherd.
    The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.
    As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father;
    and I lay down My life for the sheep.”

    Acts 13:48 “Now when the Gentiles heard this,
    they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord.
    And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.”

    Acts 20:28 “Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock,
    among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers,
    to shepherd the church of God
    which He purchased with His own blood.”

    Rom. 8:32-34 “He who did not spare His own Son,
    but delivered Him up for us all,
    how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
    Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect?
    It is God who justifies.
    Who is he who condemns?
    It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen,
    who is even at the right hand of God,
    who also makes intercession for us.”

    Heb. 2:17 “Therefore, in all things
    He had to be made like His brethren,
    that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest
    in things pertaining to God,
    to make propitiation for the sins of the people.”

    Heb. 9:15, 28 “And for this reason
    He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death,
    for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant,
    that those who are called
    may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
    So Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many.
    To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time,
    apart from sin, for salvation.”

    Rev. 5:9 “And they sang a new song, saying:
    You are worthy to take the scroll, and to open its seals;
    for You were slain, and have redeemed us to God by Your blood
    out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation.”

    "The following survey may help you
    in tracing the purpose and scope of Christ’s saving work.
    ...

    "1. The Bible describes the purpose of Christ’s work
    as the full salvation of his people

    (that is, actual salvation, not just the possibility of it):

    "The Bible tells us that Christ came to actually save sinners, not to allow the success of His work to be determined by sinners."


    Matt. 1:21 “And she will bring forth a Son,
    and you shall call His name Jesus,
    for He will save His people from their sins.”

    Luke 19:10 “…for the Son of Man has come to seek
    and to save that which was lost.”

    II Cor. 5:21 “For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us,
    that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.”

    I Peter 3:18 “For Christ also suffered once for sins,
    the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God,
    being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit.”

    Gal. 1:3-4 “Grace to you and peace from God the Father
    and our Lord Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for our sins,
    that He might deliver us from this present evil age,
    according to the will of our God and Father.”

    I Tim. 1:15 “This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance,
    that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners,
    of whom I am chief.”

    Titus 2:14 “…who gave Himself for us,
    that He might redeem us from every lawless deed
    and purify for Himself His own special people,
    zealous for good works.”
    ...

    "The death of Christ actually reconciles sinners to God
    (remember that in each of these passages
    the author is writing to the Church of true believers)."


    Romans 5:10 “For if when we were enemies
    we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son,
    much more, having been reconciled,
    we shall be saved by His life.”

    II Cor. 5:18-21 “Now all things are of God,
    who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ,
    and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is,
    that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself,
    not imputing their trespasses to them,
    and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
    Therefore we are ambassadors for Christ,
    as though God were pleading through us:
    we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God.
    For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us,
    that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.”

    Eph. 2:15-18 “…having abolished in His flesh the enmity,
    that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances,
    so as to create in Himself one new man from the two,
    thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God
    in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
    And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off
    and to those who were near.
    For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.”

    Col. 1:20-22 “And by Him to reconcile all things to Himself,
    by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven,
    having made peace through the blood of His cross.
    And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind
    by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled
    in the body of His flesh through death,
    to present you holy, and blameless,
    and irreproachable in His sight ….”

    Heb. 2:17 “Therefore, in all things
    He had to be made like His brethren,
    that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest
    in things pertaining to God,
    to make propitiation for the sins of the people.”
    ...

    "The death of Christ actually justifies the believer
    because His shed blood was the propitiation for sin
    and was Acceptable to God.

    "Redemption is the actual setting free
    from the bondage of sin by the blood of Christ
    to serve the living God."


    Rom. 3:24-25 “…being justified freely by His grace
    through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
    whom God set forth to be a propitiation by His blood,
    through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness,
    because in His forbearance God
    had passed over the sins that were previously committed.”

    Rom. 5:8-9 “But God demonstrates His own love toward us,
    in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
    Much more then, having now been justified by His blood,
    we shall be saved from wrath through Him.”

    Rom. 5:18 “Therefore, as through one man’s offense
    judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation,
    even so through one Man’s righteous act
    the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.”

    I Cor. 1:30 “But of Him you are in Christ Jesus,
    who became for us wisdom from God –
    and righteousness and sanctification and redemption.”

    Gal. 2:16 “Knowing that a man is not justified
    by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ,
    even we have believed in Christ Jesus,
    that we might be justified by faith in Christ
    and not by the works of the law;
    for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.”

    Gal. 3:13 “Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law,
    having become a curse for us
    (for it is written, Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree).”

    Gal. 4:4-5 “But when the fullness of the time had come,
    God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law,
    to redeem those who were under the law,
    that we might receive the adoption as sons.”

    Col. 1:13-14 “He has delivered us from the power of darkness
    and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,
    in whom we have redemption through His blood,
    the forgiveness of sins.”

    Heb. 9:12 “Not with the blood of goats and calves,
    but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place
    once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.”

    Heb. 10:14 “For by one offering He has perfected forever
    those who are being sanctified.”

    I Pet. 1:18-19 “Knowing that you were not redeemed
    with corruptible things, like silver or gold,
    from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers,
    but with the precious blood of Christ,
    as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.”

    I Pet. 2:24 “Who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree,
    that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness
    – by whose stripes you were healed.”

    I Jn. 1:7 “But if we walk in the light as He is in the light,
    we have fellowship with one another,
    and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.”
    ...
    con't
     
  2. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    "Regeneration by the Holy Spirit
    is necessary for us to have true faith, and thereby to be saved.

    "The gift of the Holy Spirit to regenerate and sanctify
    is actually given to all whom Christ died for."


    John 3:3 “Jesus answered and said to him,
    Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again,
    he cannot see the kingdom of God.”


    Acts 16:14 “Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us.
    She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira,
    who worshiped God.
    The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul.”


    Eph. 1:13, 14 “In Him you also trusted,
    after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation;
    in whom also, having believed,
    you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
    who is the guarantee of our inheritance
    until the redemption of the purchased possession,
    to the praise of His glory.”

    Titus 3:5, 6 “Not by works of righteousness which we have done,
    but according to His mercy He saved us,
    through the washing of regeneration
    and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
    whom He poured out on us abundantly
    through Jesus Christ our Savior.”

    I Cor. 1:30 “But of Him you are in Christ Jesus,
    who became for us wisdom from God –
    and righteousness and sanctification and redemption.”


    II Thess. 2:13 “But we are bound to give thanks to God
    always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord,
    because God from the beginning chose you for salvation
    through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.”



    Heb. 9:14 “How much more shall the blood of Christ,
    who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself
    without spot to God, purge your conscience f

    from dead works to serve the living God?”

    I Pet. 1:2 “Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,
    in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience
    and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:
    Grace to you and peace be multiplied.”
    ...

    "2. There are a number of Bible passages that give us
    a glimpse of the purpose of Christ in fulfilling the Eternal Covenant with His Father made before the foundation of the world."


    "In summary, Jesus laid down His life
    for those whom the Father had “given” to Him.

    Read John 6:35-40 and John 17 carefully.

    ...

    "3. Jesus is conscious of laying down His life for “His sheep.”

    "Those who are not believers are not “His sheep” (Jn. 10:26).


    "John 10:24-29 “Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him,
    How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.

    "Jesus answered them, I told you, and you do not believe.

    "The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me.

    "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep,
    as I said to you.

    "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them,
    and they follow Me.

    "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish;
    neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

    "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all;
    and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.”

    (see also John 10:11,14-18 and Matthew 25:31-46)
    ...

    4. In the High Priestly prayer of Christ,
    Jesus does not pray for the world in general,
    but for those who were given to Him by His Father.


    John 17:2, 6, 9, 11, 12, 24;

    “As You have given Him authority over all flesh,
    that He should give eternal life
    to as many as You have given Him.

    "I have manifested Your name to the men
    whom You have given Me out of the world.

    "They were Yours, You gave them to Me,
    and they have kept Your word.

    "I pray for them.

    "I do not pray for the world
    but for those whom You have given Me,
    for they are Yours.

    "Now I am no longer in the world,
    but these are in the world,
    and I come to You.

    "Holy Father, keep through Your name
    those whom You have given Me,
    that they may be one as We are.

    "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name.

    "Those whom You gave Me I have kept;
    and none of them is lost except the son of perdition,
    that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

    "Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me
    may be with Me where I am,
    that they may behold My glory which You have given Me;

    "for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.”

    ...

    "5. Christ “justified” those for whom He died (Rom. 5:9).


    (Note: Folks like to use their reasoning formulas to oppose

    the verses & teachings we've seen regarding a Limited Atonement.

    However, this type of reasoning, below, remains triumphant.)


    "If Christ bore the sins of all men without exception,
    then all men are justified.

    "If all men are justified, then they receive Christ by faith
    and are at peace with God (Rom. 5:1).

    "All who are justified are likewise glorified (Rom. 8:30).

    "It is clear from the Bible as well as from the world in which we live
    that many live and die at enmity with God and are lost eternally.

    "If Christ died for all, then all would be justified,
    and none would be lost.

    "We see from the Bible and our world that this is not true."
     
  3. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    @Alan Gross

    I agree, however' "to be saved" is a lot different from " to get saved"

    The Elect are legally saved/Justified before God solely by the Blood of Christ before they believe, then they are Spiritually saved by Spirit regeneration before they believe, then following regeneration they become consciously saved by Faith, they embrace and come into the Spiritual knowledge of their Salvation
     
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  4. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Gal 3:24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

    Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

    Rom 8:29 For
    whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    Christ is the propitiation for the sin of the world but although all sin was covered one is only saved if they believe in Christ Jesus.

    So to correct your errant assumption, all men are not justified.
     
  5. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    These two verses blow a hole in your errant view. You should trust what the bible says BF not what some man tells you the bible says.

    Gal 3:24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

    Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
     
  6. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Christ is the propitiation only for them that have been given Faith, whoever He is the propitiation for, will be given Faith in His Blood to know it, realize it Rom 3:25

    25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

    If one is never given Faith in His Blood, then He isnt their propitiation, simple as that.
     
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  7. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    You make un-biblical statements like this and then you wonder why I ask if you are a universalist?

    Since we know that Christ is the propitiation for the whole world 1Jn 2.2 then by your statement everyone is given faith, your saying everyone is saved so you logically must be a universalist. That is the only conclusion one can make BF.

    The bible tells who Christ died for:
    1Ti 2:6 who gave Himself a ransom for all,...
    1Ti 4:10 ...the living God, who is the Savior of all men,...
    Rom 5:6 ...in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
    Rom 5:8 ...while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

    And unless you think some are excluded from this:
    Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

    Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

    Even though all men have sinned God still desired that they turn to Him in faith so as to be saved.
    1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
    1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

    That is why He sent His son
    Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
    Joh 3:17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

    Those that trust in the risen Son will be saved:
    Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes,

    Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

    God does not give anyone saving faith, it is because a person has faith that they will be saved.

    Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith,...

    Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
    Rom 5:2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

    Act 16:30 ..."Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
    Act 16:31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved

    So we see that Christ is the propitiation for the sin of all men it is only those that freely trust in the risen Son that will be saved. Christ death saved no one but it man salvation available to all.
    1Co 15:17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!
     
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  8. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    So it is not limited.
     
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  9. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Faith is a Spiritual Gift given in regeneration to the elect of God for whom Christ has died for and taken away their sins, propitiated Gods wrath for, satisfied Gods Justice for. Thats how we know who Jesus died for, by them being regenerated and given the Gift of Faith.
     
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  10. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    That is your theory but the bible which is the inspired Word of God shows that you are wrong. I have to conclude that you disagree with the verses that I posted so it is not me that you are in disagreement with but the Holy Spirit.

    Why will you not trust the Word of God? You keep twisting what the bible says even when clear scripture is presented to you. Those were not ambiguous words and you still hold to you errant view. What other conclusion would one come to but that you are being willfully blind.
     
    #10 Silverhair, Feb 1, 2024
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2024
  11. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    The atonement is limited to them God gives Faith to, thats why its the Faith of Gods Elect Titus 1:1

    Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
     
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  12. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    One is elect because they have faith in the risen Son. They are not elect so they will have faith. There are no elect people waiting to get faith.

    You keep making these wild claims but you provide no scriptural support for them and then you deny clear scripture. I have to ask why do you continue to deny clear scripture and use ambiguous verses to support your view. Do you not have any clear biblical texts that support your view? The answer is no you do not.

    Where in that verse does it say God gave the elect faith? What it says is that God's elect have faith, that is why they are God's elect.

    Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes,

    Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

    Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

    Do you see the order here BF HEAR THE GOSPEL, BELIEVE THE GOSPEL, ONE IS SAVED. The elect are those that are saved not those that are potentially saved as you would have it.

    Trust scripture BF, it is the inspired Word of God.
     
  13. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    I, of course, dunno where you are coming from,
    any more than you gather where I'm coming from, I guess.

    Colossians 1:20.

    "And, having made Peace through the blood of His cross,
    by Him
    to Reconcile all things unto Himself;
    by Him, I say, whether they be things in Earth, or things in Heaven."

    "And by Him to Reconcile all things to Himself"....

    This depends upon the preceding verse,
    and is to be connected with that phrase in it,
    it Pleased the Father,

    Colossians 1:19;

    "For it Pleased the Father that in Him should all fulness dwell",

    and the sense is, that it was the Good Will
    and Pleasure of God from all Eternity, as to lay up all fulness in Christ
    for His Chosen People,
    so to Reconcile them to God the Father by Jesus Christ.


    "by Him", His Son Jesus Christ, Whom He Appointed
    and called to this work, and sent to do it;

    "and Who is therefore, in Prophecy,
    before this Reconciliation was actually made, styled "Shiloh",
    the Prince of Peace, and the Peace:
    and this, when made, was made "to Himself".

    "The sense of this phrase is
    that the Reconciliation of the Elect made by Christ,

    "in a way of Full Satisfaction to Law and Justice, is to the Glory of God,
    the Glory of all His Perfections; as of His Grace and Mercy, Wisdom, Power,
    and Faithfulness, so of His Righteousness and Holiness:

    "the means by which Christ has Enacted it are,
    His Sacrifice, Sufferings, and Death, expressed in the following clause,

    "having made Peace through the blood of His cross
    ."

    "what Christ was Appointed and Sent to do,
    and what He was every way qualified for as God and man;

    "as man He had blood to shed, and could make Reconciliation for sin
    in the nature which had sinned,

    "and, as God, could draw nigh to His Father,
    and treat with Him about terms of Peace, and perform them;

    "and so a fit Daysman and Mediator between, God and man:

    "this Peace He has made by His "blood", that is, by the shedding of it,
    by His death as a sacrifice, which He underwent on the cross".

    "by Him, I say, whether they be things in Earth, or things in Heaven:"

    "by which are intended not the whole universe and fabric of the world,
    all creatures and things, animate and inanimate, rational and irrational,
    which have been cursed for the sin of man..."

    "But all the Elect of God are here meant, the Family of God in Heaven
    and in Earth; all the saints that were then in Heaven,
    when actual Reconciliation was made by the blood of Christ,


    "and Who went thither upon the foot of Peace, Reconciliation,
    and Redemption, to be made by His Sacrifice and Death;

    "and all the chosen ones that were or should be on the face of the Earth,
    until the end of time; all these were Reconciled to God by Christ:


    "and then the Apostle proceeds particularly to mention the Colossians,
    as also being instances of this Grace, Good Will,
    and Pleasure of God by Christ."

    Colossians 1:21.

    "And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind
    by wicked works, yet now hath He Reconciled
    ".
     
    #13 Alan Gross, Feb 1, 2024
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2024
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  14. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Faith is given to the elect when the Spirit regenerates them, the Spirit regenerates them because Christ died and redeemed them.

    If one never believes, its because they weren't part of Christs Sheep He died for Jn 10:26

    26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

    Sheep and Elect are one and the same
     
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  15. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    One is given faith because they were elect, and Christ died for them and took away their sins, their unbelief.
     
  16. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    You really do not have any scripture that clearly supports your view do you. You have to read into the text, that's eisegesis, which depends upon your subjective interpretation of the text. It is no wonder that you have such a bad understanding of the biblical text, you think you have to correct what the Holy Spirit inspired.

    sheep G4263 elect G1588 You seem to think that Holy Spirit is not capable of knowing the difference between sheep and elect. But then again it does seem that you do have that problem.
     
  17. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Do you have clear scripture for that? You keep saying these things as if they are scriptural, there not but that does not seem to bother you in the least.
     
  18. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    I have given you scripture , cant help it if you dont believe it like I do
     
  19. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    I have given you whats clear to me.
     
  20. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    [QUOTE="Alan Gross, post: 2876436, member: 14358" . . . are intended not the whole universe . . . [/QUOTE]
    Really? Revelation 21:1, . . . And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; . . ."
     
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