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Featured What is the difference between Cornelius and the rich young ruler?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by canadyjd, Jun 25, 2021.

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  1. Jews and Gentiles to different standards regarding choosing for salvation

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  2. God requires rich people to give all their wealth to the poor.

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  3. God chose Cornelius for salvation according to His will and not by his good works

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  1. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    John the Baptist and then all those who were baptized by him had to bring forth fruit indicating they had received Repentance and Faith, in salvation by Grace, through the Word of their preaching.

    Then, along with everyone else saved, there were 3,000 saved on The Day of Pentecost; (then, 5,000 more, later, right?)

    Acts 2:21; "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls."


    That's right. Absolutely.

    Starting with Adam and Eve being given Repentance and Faith in the Gospel message of Genesis 3:15;


    "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel,"
    along with God demonstrating a blood sacrifice, in killing an animal and picturing covering their sins, by covering them with clothes, and then on from there through the History of Christianity, in both The Old, and New Testaments.

    I put this out there, often, because it it soooo important to get hold of;

    Notice especially
    1e.) in blue that shows the Old and New Testament saints were saved the same way. That Rock is Christ.

    from Br. Gill;
    https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/gill/A_Body_of_Doctrinal_Divinity_-_John_Gill.pdf

    "The Covenant of Grace ... was a compact in eternity, between the three divine persons, Father, Son, and Spirit;

    "in which each person agreed to take his part in the economy of man's salvation: and now I shall consider the administration of that covenant in the various periods of time, from the beginning of the world to the end of it.

    "The covenant of grace is but one and the same in all ages, of which Christ is the substance;

    "being given for
    "a covenant of the people", of all the people of God,

    "both Jews and Gentiles,

    "who is
    "the same" in the "yesterday" of the Old Testament,

    "and in the
    "today" of the New Testament,

    "and
    "forever";

    "He is
    "the way, the truth, and the life", the only true way to eternal life;

    "and there never was any other way made known to men since the fall of Adam;

    "no other name under Heaven has been given or will be given, by which men can be saved.

    "The patriarchs before the flood and after,

    "before the law of Moses and under it,

    "before the coming of Christ,

    "and all the saints since,

    are saved in one and the same way, even
    "by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ";

    "and that is the Grace of the Covenant, exhibited at different times, and in diverse manners. For though the covenant is but one, there are different administrations of it; particularly two, one before the coming of Christ, and the other after it;

    "which lay the foundation for the distinction of the
    "first" and "second",

    "the
    "old" and the "new" covenant, observed by the author of the epistle to the Hebrews (Hebrews 8:7,8,13; 9:1,15; 12:24), for by the first and old covenant, is not meant the covenant of works made with Adam, which had been broken and abrogated long ago;

    "since the apostle is speaking of a covenant waxen old, and ready to vanish away in his time: nor was the covenant of works the first and most ancient covenant;

    "the Covenant of Grace, as an eternal compact, was before that;

    "but by it is meant the first and most ancient administration of the Covenant of Grace

    "which reached from the fall of Adam, when the covenant of works was broke,

    "unto the coming of Christ, when it was superseded and vacated by another administration of the same covenant, called therefore the
    "second" and "new" covenant.

    "The one we commonly call the Old Testament dispensation
    (or, "First Administration of Covenant of Grace"),
    and the other the New Testament dispensation
    (or, "Second or New Administration of Covenant of Grace");

    "for which there seems to be some foundation in 2 Corinthians 3:6,14 and Hebrews 9:15

    "these two covenants,
    or rather the two administrations of the same covenant, are allegorically represented by two women, Hagar and Sarah, the bondwoman and the free (Galatians 4:22-26), which fitly describe the nature and difference of them.

    "And before I proceed any further, I shall just point out the agreement and disagreement of those two administrations of the Covenant of Grace.

    "1. First, The agreement there is between them.

    "1a. They agree in the efficient cause, God: the covenant of grace, in its original constitution in eternity, is of God, and therefore it is called his covenant, being made by him;


    "I have made a covenant — my covenant I will not break"
    ,
    #Ps 89:3,34

    "and whenever any exhibition or manifestation of this covenant was made to any of the patriarchs, as to Abraham, David, etc. it is ascribed to God,


    "I will make my covenant—he has made with me an everlasting covenant"

    (Genesis 17:2 2; Samuel 23:5)

    so the new covenant, or new administration of it, runs in this form,


    "I will make a new covenant"
    etc. (Hebrews 8:8).

    skip to
    1e.) (and check out the scriptures)

    "...1e. In the blessings of
    the Covenant of Grace;

    The blessings of the Covenant of Grace
    are the same under both administrations.

    "Salvation and redemption by Christ is the great blessing held forth and enjoyed under the one as under the other

    (2 Samuel 23:5; Hebrews 9:15).

    "Justification by the righteousness of Christ, which the Old Testament church had knowledge of, and faith in, as well as the new

    (Isaiah 45:24,25; Romans 3:21-23).

    "Forgiveness of sin through faith in Christ, all the prophets bore witness to; and the saints of old, as now, had as comfortable an application of it

    (Psalm 32:1,5; Isaiah 43:25; Micah 7:18; Acts 10:43).

    "Regeneration, spiritual circumcision, and sanctification were what men were made partakers of under the first, as under the second administration of the covenant

    (Deuteronomy 30:6; Philippians 3:3).

    "Eternal life was made known in the writings of the Old Testament, as well as in those of the New;

    "and was believed, looked for, and expected by the saints of the former, as of the latter dispensation

    (John 5:39; Hebrews 11:10,16; Job 19:26,27).

    "In a word, they and we eat the same spiritual meat, and drink the same spiritual drink,

    "for they drank of that Rock that followed them,

    "and
    that Rock was Christ."

    (1 Corinthians 10:3,4)."
     
    #121 Alan Gross, May 14, 2023
    Last edited: May 14, 2023
  2. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    "Concerning the rich young ruler of whom it is said Christ "loved him" (Mark 10:21), we fully believe that he was one of God's elect and was "saved" sometime after his interview with our Lord. . . . It is written, "Him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out," and this man certainly did "come" to Him." —Arthur Walkington Pink, The Sovereignty of God
     
  3. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    It seems incredible to me that people could conflate the two.
     
    #123 kyredneck, May 14, 2023
    Last edited: May 14, 2023
  4. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    The Spirit of God is specifically mentioned in Acts 8 as bringing Phillip to the Ethiopian Eunuch and taking him away afterward. The passage of scripture Phillip explained to him was of Jesus dying on the cross for his behalf.

    So, twice now, I have disproven your claims with scripture. Cornelius was not the first Gentile saved and God Holy Spirit is specifically mentioned in Acts 8.

    Your assertion of a dispensation being the difference between the RYR and Cornelius has been demonstrated by God’s Word to be incorrect.

    However, I do expect you to cling to your man made false doctrine of “dispensationalism” over God’s Word and you will undoubtably spew more nonsense trying to convince others to join your error.

    Now, please start your own thread on dispensationalism and quit trying to hijack mine.

    peace to you
     
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  5. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    I guess I’m not seeing your point with reference to the RYR.

    He ask Jesus what he must do to inherit eternal life. Jesus’s responses would be in relation to eternal life in heaven, unless you believe Jesus was speaking of eternal life on earth.

    peace to you
     
  6. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    He could have been referring to the 'quality of eternal life' i.e. the abundant life (a foretaste of glory divine), but, IMO, every single saint w/the law written on their hearts that stands in the judgement will be considered as 'doers of the law'. This wasn't the first time Christ was posed with that question and responded with the same answer - the law.
     
  7. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Well, ok. I don’t think so. Thanks for the comments.

    peace to you
     
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  8. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    So, do you think Christ was just 'yanking our chain' with His answer, "if thou wouldest enter into life, keep the commandments"? Twice, He did that. Do you not think it significant that He loved RYR and did not refute RYR's answer that he had done those things?
     
    #128 kyredneck, May 14, 2023
    Last edited: May 14, 2023
  9. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Well, I certainly didn’t say any of that.

    Jesus often said things, asked questions, that were designed to move people closer to recognizing the Truth of their relationship with God.

    If the RYR had been able to the the Law perfectly, he would have entered into eternal life without the need for a Savior. But he couldn’t and Jesus was attempting to get him to realize that.

    Telling him to give up everything and follow Him, which is what He told to others as well, was an attempt to get him to understand his need of a Savior.

    By Jesus saying that he lacked “one thing” is most likely a reference to the Truth that if you fail at “one” aspect of the OT Law, you have transgressed it all.

    Still not sure how this relates to an earthly kingdom or a heavenly kingdom?

    peace to you
     
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  10. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Well, I certainly didn't say any of that.

    Peace to you.
     
  11. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the comments

    peace to you
     
  12. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    The man certainly came to Jesus to ask Him a question...(?)

    Is that supposed to be the criteria for not being "cast out"?

    Just coming to Jesus to ask Jesus a question?

    Jesus was answering in a way that was intended to clue him in on his inability to keep the commandments and that they only rendered him guilty before a Perfect Law-Keeping God.

    Nothing about Jesus not rebuking the rich young ruler for saying he had kept the Law was an indication that Jesus agreed with him.

    Jesus simply overlooked his remark and made His move by telling him. "let's see, then if that is true, you shouldn't have any problem doing this I tell you."

    Fact is, he had never kept the Law any more than anyone else, except Jesus.

    If you are as Perfect as Jesus, you can go to heaven by keeping the Law, Perfectly.

    Very cool.

    Scripture.

    What is our righteousness before a holy and just God?

    Is it our own righteousness by acts of keeping the Law or the imputed righteousness of our precious Lord Jesus Christ?

    I say that not only are all souls saved the same in the Old and New Testaments, but is never possible to obtain 'salvation' by keeping the Law.

    The Law only condemns the lost who are not Perfect like God or guides the saved to be more Christ-like.

    The imputed righteousness of Christ, "apart from the Law", is illustrated and clearly taught throughout the Bible.

    Again, in the beginning, after Adam and Eve had sinned and hid themselves from God because they were naked.

    Were they Jews or Gentiles?

    We are told in Genesis 3:21: “Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skin, and clothed them.”

    An innocent animal was slain, and its coat was made a covering for the naked, guilty pair.

    God has to cover us and our filthy sins by the Perfect Life and Blood Sacrifice and Power of a life over Death, by the Resurrection of Jesus Christ; we cannot cover ourselves acceptably with any ability to keep the whole Law, before Him.

    Jesus is the Savior.

    All are condemned already and have broken the Law, since our conception.

    Isaiah 61:10 beautifully expresses this truth: “I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.”

    Zechariah 3:1-4 illustrates the same truth. Satan stood at the right hand of Joshua the high priest to resist him.

    The Lord rebuked Satan.

    The Bible tells us that: “Joshua was clothed with filthy garments.”

    But God said: “Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.”

    In Matthew 22 our Saviour gives us a parable about a wedding where the guests were bidden to the feast.

    But the king saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment. "And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless."

    Then the man was bound hand and foot and cast into outer darkness.

    You and I have no righteousness of our own doing. Isaiah 64:6 tells us: "All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags."

    2 Corinthians 5:21 tells us, "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him".

    Philippians 3:9 the apostle Paul expresses his desire to "be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith."

    Revelation 19:7-9 tells us again of the wedding feast: "the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

    "And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white; FOR THE FINE LINEN IS THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF SAINTS."


    This last phrase is consistent with the rest of Scripture that it is not our righteousness performed by keeping the Law that makes us acceptable unto God, but the imputed righteousness of Christ.
     
    #132 Alan Gross, May 14, 2023
    Last edited: May 14, 2023
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  13. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    I accused you of ignoring the truths of scripture and it did not take you long to confirm my charge. You ignored everything I said and the proof I gave for it. Let me just say here that the Acts is a history book with transitions and new things. It tells us what happened but does not explain why in most cases. It is not the place to build your doctrinal structure.

    The epistles OTOH is the place to build your doctrines. It is the explanation of the history of the beginning of the church of Jesus Christ with both Jews and gentiles included. The church is a new thing, a new man, a new creation and it has the trinitarian signature on it. It is Jew, gentile, and the Holy Spirit as a unity making one body. Three in one and one in three. The epistles explains the history.

    Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
    2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
    3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
    4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
    5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
    6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
    7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
    8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

    So, misuse the intelligence and reasoning ability God gave you and believe the nonsense you preach.
     
  14. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    I am truly astonished how you can say that without any hint of self awareness.

    You are making an essential dispensation doctrinal claim concerning Cornelius. You claim he was the first Gentile covert and as such, he is the pivotal historical figure in moving from the OT dispensation to the dispensation of grace.

    This was your explanation for the difference between the RYR and Cornelius.

    When I pointed out the Ethiopian eunuch (Acts 8) was a gentile saved before Cornelius (Acts 10) you simply refuse to accept the Truth of scripture and clung to your man made false doctrine.

    Peace to you
     
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  15. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    Six hour warning
    This thread will be closed no sooner than 1000 hrs (GMT), 6 AM EDT 3 AM PDT
     
  16. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    You are wrong again. I am not making a claim that God is moving from the OT law to NT grace with the salvation of Cornelius. I am making the claim that God is moving from the principle of "promise" of salvation of his people, the Jews, because they refused to receive him as their promised Messiah and Savior and King. It is fulfilled prophesy from Jesus himself. Jesus Christ is building a house (family) through a birth as the first Adam also did. See Hebrews 3 now. Jesus Christ is the head of this family as Adam was the head of his.

    Here is a prophetic parable from Jesus Christ on Tuesday of the week before he was crucified on Friday by these devil filled Jews he was talking to.

    Matt 21:1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
    2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
    3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
    4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
    5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
    6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
    7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
    8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
    9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
    10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
    11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
    12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
    13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
    14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

    The time of the sending his servants out was forty years, a time of probation always in scripture. From the cross and resurrection of Jesus Christ until the destruction and dispersion of Judah in AD 70 was 40 years. During this time Judah maintained a national identity with a temple in Jerusalem, a symbol of the presence of God. But when the time was up God sent the Roman army to destroy their capitol city and disperse them from their land into the nations where gentiles ruled over them. They were no longer a nation for about 20 centuries. God counted them as gentiles because of this and dead as a nation. The dispersion was a burial. Afterwards, he built his house with gentiles and it became known as a gentile house. This prophesy is capsulized in the wedding of Isaac and his gentile wife, Rebekah.

    Luke had something to add when he recorded Jesus saying this:

    Luke 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
    6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
    7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
    8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
    9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

    This fig tree is always a symbol for national Israel.

    After the 3 years ministry of Jesus the dresser found no fruit and the Acts of the apostles for the next 40 years, until AD 70, worked with the fig tree to try to get it to bear fruit. Finally it was cut down and removed from the vineyard of God. This also ended the apostolic era, all but John being dead at this time.

    Ga 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.(the promise according to context is the indwelling Holy Spirit of God)
    23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
    24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
    25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
    26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
    27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

    I am trying to help you here.
     
    #136 JD731, May 16, 2023
    Last edited: May 16, 2023
  17. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    Why does any of you think Phillip had the commission and power to minister the Holy Ghost to the Ethiopian when just earlier it was revealed he did not have the power to minister the Holy Ghost to the Samaritans?

    Ac 8:5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
    6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.

    Ac 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

    Ac 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John (both apostles):

    15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
    16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus)
    17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

    This was the manner in which all received the Holy Ghost until Cornelius when God began giving the Holy Ghost when one heard the gospel and believed it and without any need for the ministry of apostles.

    Ac 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
    44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
    45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    Until this event the apostles alone were given the power to minister the Holy Ghost.

    Joh 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
    20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
    21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
    22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
    23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
     
  18. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    I understand dispensational doctrine very well and believe it is full of errors and is contrary to scripture.

    Thanks for the comments

    peace to you
     
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  19. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    It is evident you refuse to process biblical teaching and honor the transitions in the history of the earthly ministry of Jesus Christ and the beginning of his house (family) through a new birth by his Spirit after his ascension to heaven. The Acts of the apostles in history is confusing without the epistles to explain the Acts of God and his Spirit through them in this 35 years in which they and their ministries, called apostles and prophets, were the foundation for the building of this house. It would be impossible to understand God without his epistles to explain it and it would be impossible to follow the logic in the epistles if one did not have the historical account.
     
  20. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Again, I understand the tenets of dispensationalism (which varies depending on who you talk to) and find them contrary to scripture.

    You claimed the difference between the RYR and Cornelius was based on dispensationalism. Specifically, you claimed Cornelius was the first Gentile saved after Christ ascended and was the historical figured that ushered in the new dispensation.

    I pointed out the Ethiopian eunuch (Acts 8) was saved prior to Cornelius (Acts 10).

    You claimed God Holy Spirit was not mentioned in Acts 8. I pointed out God Holy Spirit was mentioned twice in Acts 8.

    Now you are saying Phillips encounter with the Ethiopian eunuch doesn’t count.

    So, basically, there is no limit to the mental gymnastics you will engage in to cling to your unbiblical false doctrine.

    I’m trying to help you to see the Truth of God’s word and reject false doctrine.

    peace to you
     
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